Surgical strikes inside Pak. Possibility?

[Screambowl]

We are talking more about how to build reputation for India that acts of terror would not go unpunished. Something on the lines of what Israel does everyday. And then the question arises- can India do something to punish the perpetrators of the crime?

It is something on the lines of what BSF is doing in response to ceasefire violations.

we cannot send our men there and do some firing and tell them we did it. We can send men there and say we did not do it, but they should get to know that we did it. And even if we are doing this on their western border, it's confidential.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

we cannot send our men there and do some firing and tell them we did it. We can send men there and say we did not do it, but they should get to know that we did it. And even if we are doing this on their western border, it's confidential.

Why should India not make it public that we did it and will do it again if provoked? It is a strong statement rather than pussyfooting around the issue.

 

[Abhijat]

Can we not target retired army personal and their relatives , with plausible deniability ?

Point being, until and unless paki army realise the "social cost" of what they are doing , they will continue to do so as their are many players who are ready to bear "economic cost" on their side.

 

[Screambowl]

Why should India not make it public that we did it and will do it again if provoked? It is a strong statement rather than pussyfooting around the issue.

Because then it will create threat to lives of those people who will be involved in such operation. Keeping their ID confidential is the primary task.

 

[tsunami]

Part-2

Now Consequences world wide. This is something no body is talking about. But IMO India can not do anything before doing it's calculations on this point.
Assuming that world will not allow any war between 2 nuclear powers for more then 3 days. Immediately after we start CSD entire world(Only except Russia) will put sections on India and will do everything to push India to except cease fire.
Even If the world efforts doesn't payoff that simply mean India will have a huge economical disadvantages. Pakistan might not have that much as it any way have nothing. But all our investments, projects, FDI etc. will be gone. Trust me entire service sector will collapse if a single nuke hits any top cities.

Now objective... This is the tricky part.

As jackprince said that instead of CSD we should go for entire POK. I don't think it is possible at all. It took us more than 2 months to take back Kargil (I am not sure but area was less then 500 sq Km) when entire world was favoring us. Now capturing GB with over 50K sq KM that too against entire world pressure will be just insane. I don't think we will have that capability in next 25 years.

So mean while we should discuss objectives of CSD vs Air strike.

CSD I am not clear but lets count...
Making Pakistan terrorist free... I will say impossible.
Making Pakistan terrorist free... Not impossible but too dangerous(Wo beth ke patte nahi khelege na)
Capturing prime targets like Hafiz Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim possible but for that going a full scale war not justified.
What else you decide!!

Air Strike
Simple just destroy 1 or 2 terrorist camp in POK and what happen afterwords.
1. This will send a strong message to Pakistan,
2. No action from world, may be strong words but no action.
3. No option for retaliation for Pakistan, doing anything stupid will convert into a full scale war. Also in that case world will not support them and push them to keep quite.
4. If they don't do anything that meaning terrorists will go against ISI and PA as in the case of TTP, because ISI is the one who is feeding these snakes.
5. More Govt. ISI and Army of Pakistan bashing, more destabilized Pakistan. More recruits for future RAW operations in Pakistan.

Your comments.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Because then it will create threat to lives of those people who will be involved in such operation. Keeping their ID confidential is the primary task.

In case of surgical air-strikes, the identity will not be much use for Pakis.

Thanks to such strike:
1) It will settle down "aman ki asha" type brigade
2) Pro-active Indian policy will make Pak think twice before next such attack

It is better than CSD because there would be no war unless Pak reacts back tough by attacking civilian/army positions in India. This would give a natural alibi for using CSD.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Part-2

Now Consequences world wide. This is something no body is talking about. But IMO India can not do anything before doing it's calculations on this point.
Assuming that world will not allow any war between 2 nuclear powers for more then 3 days. Immediately after we start CSD entire world(Only except Russia) will put sections on India and will do everything to push India to except cease fire.
Even If the world efforts doesn't payoff that simply mean India will have a huge economical disadvantages. Pakistan might not have that much as it any way have nothing. But all our investments, projects, FDI etc. will be gone. Trust me entire service sector will collapse if a single nuke hits any top cities.

Now objective... This is the tricky part.

As jackprince said that instead of CSD we should go for entire POK. I don't think it is possible at all. It took us more than 2 months to take back Kargil (I am not sure but area was less then 500 sq Km) when entire world was favoring us. Now capturing GB with over 50K sq KM that too against entire world pressure will be just insane. I don't think we will have that capability in next 25 years.

So mean while we should discuss objectives of CSD vs Air strike.

CSD I am not clear but lets count...
Making Pakistan terrorist free... I will say impossible.
Making Pakistan terrorist free... Not impossible but too dangerous(Wo beth ke patte nahi khelege na)
Capturing prime targets like Hafiz Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim possible but for that going a full scale war not justified.
What else you decide!!

Air Strike
Simple just destroy 1 or 2 terrorist camp in POK and what happen afterwords.
1. This will send a strong message to Pakistan,
2. No action from world, may be strong words but no action.
3. No option for retaliation for Pakistan, doing anything stupid will convert into a full scale war. Also in that case world will not support them and push them to keep quite.
4. If they don't do anything that meaning terrorists will go against ISI and PA as in the case of TTP, because ISI is the one who is feeding these snakes.
5. More Govt. ISI and Army of Pakistan bashing, more destabilized Pakistan. More recruits for future RAW operations in Pakistan.

Your comments.

Yes, CSD means full scale war. Surgical air-strikes mean no war but strong message to Pak just like BSF shelling Pak after every ceasefire violation.

And if after surgical strikes, Pak wants a war then why not, we can still use CSD.

 

[Abhijat]

@tsunami , I think our armed forces consider air-warfare as part of full scale warfare , in relation to limited warfare in case of boots on the ground.

And if we see example of drone bombing, what is the success rate of such in relation to anti-west recruitment plan?

 

[Screambowl]

In case of surgical air-strikes, the identity will not be much use for Pakis.

Thanks to such strike:
1) It will settle down "aman ki asha" type brigade
2) Pro-active Indian policy will make Pak think twice before next such attack

It is better than CSD because there would be no war unless Pak reacts back tough by attacking civilian/army positions in India. This would give a natural alibi for using CSD.

May another Mumbai never happens, but if this happens, god forbids, surgical strike is something which is too less to compensate the loss. Then they have to lose POK or as NSA Doval said, Balochistan.

 

[OneGrimPilgrim]

Can we not target retired army personal and their relatives , with plausible deniability ?

Point being, until and unless paki army realise the "social cost" of what they are doing , they will continue to do so as their are many players who are ready to bear "economic cost" on their side.

May another Mumbai never happens, but if this happens, god forbids, surgical strike is something which is too less to compensate the loss. Then they have to lose POK or as NSA Doval said, Balochistan.

ain't it music to our ears?!

Attacking Pak Army Hqrs an option: Indian Army

Srinagar, Sept 29:

Brigadier J S Cheema of the Army’s Baramulla-based 19th Infantry Division said attacking Pakistan Army headquarters in Rawalpindi was an option with the Indian Army.

Addressing a conference organized by the Army to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the end of 1965 war at Army’s strategic Srinagar-based 15 Corps headquarters, Brig Cheema said, attacking Pakistan Army headquarters was an option with the Indian Army.

“What are we waiting for? Another 26/11?” he said.

Brig Cheema said New Delhi should deal with Islamabad the way the United States dealt with Pakistan when it carried the Operation Neptune Spear in May 2011 that resulted in the death of the former Al-Qaeda chief, Osama Bin Laden in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

He said Indian Army had already carried attacks inside another country – Myanmar - by attacking the camps of its rebel leaders and attacking Pakistan Army headquarters would not be something new.

Indian Army had “crossed over to Myanmar territory” and launched a massive search involving hundreds of Army men and helicopters to track down the rebels during the operation.
Brig Cheema also said that the Army needs to play a role in making the separatist leadership in Kashmir irrelevant.

“Issues of trivial nature are raked up and call for bands are being initiated,” he said. “Syed Ali Geelani, who has been a politician and contested polls in the past, is afraid of contesting polls now.”

Brig Cheema said if Army does not indulge in human rights violations, separatists would be marginalized.

Chalking out roles for the Army, he said, “Our job is to maintain the sanctity of the borders and help in maintaining peace in the hinterland.”

Major General Raj Shukla of the 19th Infantry Division, in his speech said, New Delhi need not worry about the growing Islamabad-Beijing military partnership.

“China has never come to the rescue of Pakistan in wars,” he said. “That kind of military assistance is not forthcoming although there is transfer of military technology and the economic corridor coming up between the two countries.”

He said as far as the India-Pakistan military relations were concerned, Indian Army was defensive in larger sense but at the operational and tactical level, there was an offensive intent.

Seconding Brig J S Cheema, he said if Pakistan initiates any conflict, Indian Army can escalate the conflict in a number of ways and attacking the Pakistan Army’s headquarter in Rawalpindi was an option.

He said Army’s counter-infiltration grid was better now but the recruitment of qualified youth by militant groups was a cause of concern.

Brig Shukla said the India-Pakistan conflict was not a case of a Hindu state of India versus a Muslim state of Pakistan as Muslim population in India was more than the Muslim population in Pakistan.
He said the 1965 war between India and Pakistan was a result of Pakistan’s obsession of Kashmir.
“Pakistan’s economy then was more vibrant than outs and they first tried negotiations which proved futile,” Brig Shukla said. “Then they thought force will work and went for a war.”
Brigadier Rajeev Puri, the Commander of Kigam Garrison of the Army, said there was no reality in Kashmiri youth joining Islamic State (IS).

“There are reports of only one Kashmiri having joined the IS,” he said. “Waving IS flag is something else and may be only about showing solidarity.”

could there be such a conference held during the UPA-phase?!

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

May another Mumbai never happens, but if this happens, god forbids, surgical strike is something which is too less to compensate the loss. Then they have to lose POK or as NSA Doval said, Balochistan.

Given lack of spine of GoI on such matters, even CSD is a non-starter. And hence we need something milder which can at least be implemented. Till then, develop assets in Pak.

 

[tsunami]

@tsunami , I think our armed forces consider air-warfare as part of full scale warfare , in relation to limited warfare in case of boots on the ground.

And if we see example of drone bombing, what is the success rate of such in relation to anti-west recruitment plan?

Doesn't matter what one want to consider it. Point is CSD means full scale war. I am not saying drone air strike. Be a little old fashioned and use Strike fighter. Israel was successful in destroying Iraq's nuke reactor. Why can't we hit 1 or 2 camp with precision with full intelligence.

And last point anti India recruitment plan they are already doing that at their maximum capacity.

 

[Screambowl]

Given lack of spine of GoI on such matters, even CSD is a non-starter. And hence we need something milder which can at least be implemented. Till then, develop assets in Pak.

Yes and keep the check on Politicians like IK Gujral who terminated all the RAW ops on Pak soil, and we lost our assets.

 

[jackprince]

Can we not target retired army personal and their relatives , with plausible deniability ?

Point being, until and unless paki army realise the "social cost" of what they are doing , they will continue to do so as their are many players who are ready to bear "economic cost" on their side.

No. Absolutely not. That would stooping too low, and climbing back out will be impossible.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

No. Absolutely not. That would stooping too low, and climbing back out will be impossible.

It was the Israel strategy. I do not know how much it helped. It was shown in the movie- Munich.

Yes, it is good as revenge but does such actions serve national purpose is not so clear.

 

[jackprince]

It was the Israel strategy. I do not know how much it helped. It was shown in the movie- Munich.

Yes, it is good as revenge but does such actions serve national purpose is not so clear.

In israel it was possible, since they had a limited area to control and limited population to monitor. They also have a iron tight border. But if India starts something like that and Pakistan reciprocates in similar manner, given how many pak sympthiser and recruits are there in India, our servicemen's families will be in constant danger. To me protecting our own must come before doing harm to the enemies.

Sorry, but we can't bring humanity in the context we are talking about.

Their is a zeal full group, who by any means necessary is their to destroy this country.

What should be our response ? Some airstrikes ? It won't even bother terrorist much rest assured the master mind behind such act would use this to garner more support.

It is not about humanity and I do not feel any humanity to Pakistanis. But, as I said, the risk for our officers' families is too much. A single loss for a stupid policy is way too much.

 

[Abhijat]

No. Absolutely not. That would stooping too low, and climbing back out will be impossible.

Sorry, but we can't bring humanity in the context we are talking about.

Their is a zeal full group, who by any means necessary is their to destroy this country.

What should be our response ? Some airstrikes ? It won't even bother terrorist much rest assured the master mind behind such act would use this to garner more support.

 

[Nicky G]

Part-2

Now Consequences world wide. This is something no body is talking about. But IMO India can not do anything before doing it's calculations on this point.
Assuming that world will not allow any war between 2 nuclear powers for more then 3 days. Immediately after we start CSD entire world(Only except Russia) will put sections on India and will do everything to push India to except cease fire.
Even If the world efforts doesn't payoff that simply mean India will have a huge economical disadvantages. Pakistan might not have that much as it any way have nothing. But all our investments, projects, FDI etc. will be gone. Trust me entire service sector will collapse if a single nuke hits any top cities.

Now objective... This is the tricky part.

As jackprince said that instead of CSD we should go for entire POK. I don't think it is possible at all. It took us more than 2 months to take back Kargil (I am not sure but area was less then 500 sq Km) when entire world was favoring us. Now capturing GB with over 50K sq KM that too against entire world pressure will be just insane. I don't think we will have that capability in next 25 years.

So mean while we should discuss objectives of CSD vs Air strike.

CSD I am not clear but lets count...
Making Pakistan terrorist free... I will say impossible.
Making Pakistan terrorist free... Not impossible but too dangerous(Wo beth ke patte nahi khelege na)
Capturing prime targets like Hafiz Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim possible but for that going a full scale war not justified.
What else you decide!!

Air Strike
Simple just destroy 1 or 2 terrorist camp in POK and what happen afterwords.
1. This will send a strong message to Pakistan,
2. No action from world, may be strong words but no action.
3. No option for retaliation for Pakistan, doing anything stupid will convert into a full scale war. Also in that case world will not support them and push them to keep quite.
4. If they don't do anything that meaning terrorists will go against ISI and PA as in the case of TTP, because ISI is the one who is feeding these snakes.
5. More Govt. ISI and Army of Pakistan bashing, more destabilized Pakistan. More recruits for future RAW operations in Pakistan.

Your comments.

One of the key aspects of CSD as I understand it is to be quick and achieve tactical goal, in this case grabbing critical land before the world reacts. Once, that is met, we can agree to a cease-fire and bargain with the land captured. The target for attack can be debated upon and in my sense it must be atleast two fronts, excluding naval assets. One of these should be PoK and another along IB.

No one, least of all India wants a war where our economic progress is hampered, but national security takes precedence over a couple of points of GDP for a few years.

The simple point is surgical strikes are little more than optics. These terror camps will be rebuilt without us achieving any real gains - deterring future terror strikes, shaming Pakis in international world and hold onto the land if they don't give up Pakis.

 

[tsunami]

May another Mumbai never happens, but if this happens, god forbids, surgical strike is something which is too less to compensate the loss. Then they have to lose POK or as NSA Doval said, Balochistan.

Sorry sir but when first Mumbai happened... If you are saying 2008 then you are wrong.

1st Mumbai happened in 1993 killing 257
2nd Mumbai happened in 2006 killing 209
3rd Mumbai happened in 2008 killing 165

We never done anything. We never done something when 1st Parliament attack happened. So some thing is better then nothing. And doing something w/o considering consequences is worst, keeping quite and let it go is better. At least I think so.

 

[Screambowl]

Sorry sir but when first Mumbai happened... If you are saying 2008 then you are wrong.

1st Mumbai happened in 1993 killing 257
2nd Mumbai happened in 2006 killing 209
3rd Mumbai happened in 2008 killing 165

We never done anything. We never done something when 1st Parliament attack happened. So some thing is better then nothing. And doing something w/o considering consequences is worst, keeping quite and let it go is better. At least I think so.

Pakistan never accepted that they did anything in India. Similar way why should we declare IF we are doing anything there.
The point is, even if we do anything there, they will NOT STOP. Unless until you balkanize them.