Sukhoi Su 30MKI

p2prada

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And why would Russians be willing to part with their advancements in radar? Moreover, that would require continuous till MKI production carries on, which should slow down the MKI production rate as well.
The upgrades were part of the manufacturing process in Hyderabad. It was part of the contract. Bars has gone through 3 upgrades since the induction of the MKI. The first 2 happened immediately after induction. The 3rd one happened in 2008-09 with the new TWT made for it. Bars is an India specific technology, meaning it was made for IAF.

Russians are willing to part with their best because they are comfortable with us and we give them the moolah whenever we make such a purchase.

I don't understand how this will delay MKI production because it has not.
 

Defcon 1

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The upgrades were part of the manufacturing process in Hyderabad. It was part of the contract. Bars has gone through 3 upgrades since the induction of the MKI. The first 2 happened immediately after induction. The 3rd one happened in 2008-09 with the new TWT made for it. Bars is an India specific technology, meaning it was made for IAF.

Russians are willing to part with their best because they are comfortable with us and we give them the moolah whenever we make such a purchase.

I don't understand how this will delay MKI production because it has not.
Do you have any source for upgrades in radar?
 

p2prada

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Do you have any source for upgrades in radar?
Defunct Humanity: MAKS-2009 - NIIP celebration

However, don't understate 'Bars's upgrading capability! 'Bars's chief designer Tamerlan Bekirbayev says the capability for simultaneously detecting, tracking and engaging several aerial targets with one ground target already exists on the serial 'Bars' radars. During next step of upgrading :

- The air detection range will be more, than doubled!
- The number of tracked and egaged targets will be increased 1.5-2 times (from current 20 & 8 figures).
- The mapping performance in terms of target detection range and resolution will be doubled!
- The number of tracked ground targets will be doubled too.
- Some new operation modes will be added, particularly Meteo and Active Countermeasures modes.
- Interaction with other avionic systems (ECM, EO targeting) will be expanded.
- The range of weapon use will be extended.
- Formation mission capabilities will be enhanced.

After the completing this stage of upgrade, the next step will be equipping 'Bars' radar with AESA antenna. If so, it could be the first world AESA radar with additional gimbals mechanism. Even after AESA variant go for serial production, NIIP chiefs believe PESA radars will remain a low cost solution for many customers worldwide.
Bars upgrade is happening in 2 phases. The first phase is to double everything that is currently known for the 4KW version. The second phase would add AESA to it and double everything that's on the 7KW version. Quite realistic considering even Irbis has similar specs. 4KW(Bars 1) > 7KW(Bars 2) > 20KW (Irbis E or even Bars 3).

Phase 1 was done in 2008. There were also press statements from IAF officials confirming the same. But it is difficult to look for newspaper articles from that time.

If the first radar could detect a F-16 between 160-180 Km, the phase 1 radar can detect it at ranges above 250Km. The phase 1 radar can supposedly track a F-16 from 160-180 Km today. The phase 2 radar is set to double this capability, depending on whether IAF chose this radar for the upgrade or not. So you can say the F-16 will be tracked from at least 250 Km away with a detection range of 400+ Km. If it is Phazotron, then it should have similar or maybe better specs as compared to phase 2 Bars.

Radars are upgraded every few years, especially when the program is this big.
 

Austin

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110-140Km is not an exact measure without knowing under what conditions they were fired in. In the passage you quoted he mentions 110-140Km. That could mean 110Km fired at subsonic speed while 140Km may be range fired at a particular supersonic speed. This matches with the claims for C7 and you can say even RVV-SD.
I think Yefim Gordon is reffering to 110 Km range for RVV-SD and 140 km range for R-77M.


The 100Km range is quite like the claim for C7 or RVV-SD. It is impossible for a missile to defeat a maneuvering target at it's maximum range. Theoretically possible, practically impossible.
Agree for a Solid Fuel Missle that advertised those kinemetic range its impossible for a ramjet missile like Meteor its possible.

There was an article about it. Let me get back to you on that.
Ok


Not enough air.
Dont think so as even Brahmos , Akash SAM have similar performance altitude i.e 15-18 km , those altitude are good both in terms of ramjet burn ,atmospheric drag and to generate lift from control surfaces and body
 

p2prada

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I think Yefim Gordon is reffering to 110 Km range for RVV-SD and 140 km range for R-77M.
Okay. If true, it is good for everybody.

So, R-77-PD Ramjet long range version (250Km), K-77M solid motor medium range version (110-140Km), R-74 short range version. It fits with what the PAKFA may need.

Agree for a Solid Fuel Missle that advertised those kinemetic range its impossible for a ramjet missile like Meteor its possible.
No my friend. It defies physics. The longest possible range for any missile requires modest consumption of fuel. It doesn't matter if it is RAMJET or solid motor, it needs all of its fuel to get to its maximum advertised range. If excess fuel is used for acceleration, then max range is impossible to achieve.

Anyway, the article I was talking about.

There's No Escaping MBDA's Meteor Missile | Aviation International News

Focus on the bold parts and the part in red. It confirms that the Meteor will function like a regular missile at its max range.

MBDA has successfully completed firing trials of Meteor, the missile that will be carried by the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen, and the company is now preparing to start production. The collaborative effort by six European nations has been nine years in development but has produced a beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) that is "vastly superior to anything else in the market," according to chief engineer Andy Bradford.


When it received the development contract at the end of 2002, MBDA was set the task of producing a missile with a "no escape zone" that was larger than any other AAM, specifically the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM. This has been achieved by combining a clever boost-ramjet propulsion system with an active radar seeker derived from MBDA's Aster and Mica missiles.

According to Bradford, control of the propulsion system gives the Meteor a decisive edge. He explained that compared to current medium-range AAMs, the booster on Meteor is smaller but the missile sustains a high cruise speed throughout the intercept sequence, and may even accelerate as it closes on the target.

The weapon's electronics and propulsion control unit (ECPU) calculates the appropriate cruise speed depending on the launch condition and the target's altitude, and adjusts the ramjet's air intake and duct covers accordingly. The distance that the Meteor has to fly is unknown as yet–the target may be maneuvering, for instance. The ECPU monitors that distance and the missile's remaining fuel. When the range to go indicates that the missile won't run out of fuel if it accelerates, the throttle is fully opened to maximize the intercept speed. If the target is at maximum range, there will be little if any acceleration.


"The aim is to turn all of the fuel into speed by target intercept, but not before," Bradford explained. "The Meteor's reach and supersonic speed dominates the engagement space," he continued.

For the first time, MBDA has detailed the long and painstaking process of ground and air tests that has brought the Meteor to production-ready status. The contract included staged payments that were made only when certain milestones were reached.

The Meteor first got airborne in 2005 on a Rafale launched from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. But the seven early demonstration firings were all done from a Gripen on the Vidsel range in Sweden, starting in 2006. These flights were from the Gripen's rail launcher. They were followed by four tests of the ejector launcher on a Eurofighter, at various altitudes and g-loads.

Having flight-tested various intercept profiles, MBDA defined the changes required in the next batch of missiles–the preproduction standard. The first of these guided firings (GFs) was from a Gripen in mid-2009 in a snap-down, tail-chase engagement. That tested the seeker against background clutter. Then came five ejector-launched GFs over the Hebrides range in northern Scotland from UK Royal Air Force Tornado F.3 interceptors operated by QinetiQ.

GF2 was a tough test of the missile's ability to snap-up through thick air in a tail chase. GF3 then tested high-altitude performance, GF4 was a longer snap-down tail chase against background clutter and GF5 was a high-speed head-on engagement at "well in excess of 100 kilometers," said Bradford. The Meteor's actual maximum range is classified.

Finally, GF6 was another long-range and head-on engagement in March-April of this year that fully tested the missile's data link to and from the launch aircraft. Bradford noted that the targets for all except GF5 were high-subsonic Mirach drones with a radar cross section "equivalent to a real-world fighter," according to Bradford. GF5 engaged a BQM-167 drone.

"All the targets conducted a final evasive maneuver," added Bradford. There have since been three more firings from the Tornados over the Aberporth range off the coast of Wales, to test the Meteor's performance against countermeasures (chaff and jammers).

MBDA admitted to setbacks in the test program. A total of 21 firings were required to achieve the 16 successful ones described above. For instance, just one incorrect line of new software code defeated the first attempt to demonstrate GF3, by causing the location data transmitted from the aircraft to the missile to be misinterpreted. GF4 had to be re-flown after a telemetry problem, and so did GF6 after a connector/cable problem prevented the motor from igniting. "There were no short cuts in this development, we had six nations watching us all the time," Bradford noted. The last three firings on the Aberporth range were all first-time successes and direct hits, he added.

The warhead and seeker have yet to be tested in combination, but Bradford is confident that enough firings have been conducted. "We've collected vast amounts of data to prove the model," he said.

Interspersed with the firings have been more than 40 captive-carry flights to test the seeker and a host of ground trials. These included structural and reliability testing, more than 100 warhead firings by Bayern Chemie in Germany and intensive munition trials to satisfy the French authorities that the Meteor could go to sea with the naval Rafale. The missile must be able to withstand 1,000 hours of airborne captive carry (although the motor must be changed at 500 hours).

What comes next? MBDA has already delivered some ground-handling training missiles from its factory in Lostock, Scotland. That site will carry out final assembly for all six nations, once they have signaled final acceptance. MBDA expects them to do so by the end of the year. Only Germany has yet to confirm a production contract.

The first integration firing from the Gripen has already been completed, and live captive-carry trials have been flown on the Rafale. Those warplanes should be carrying the Meteor in operations by 2015. As for Eurofighter, the main integration contract has not yet been finalized, which could delay the projected UK in-service date of July 2015. MBDA has just finished work on a preliminary contract with Lockheed Martin to study how Meteor will fit into the F-35's internal weapons bay. Wind tunnel tests to study the airflow around the bay doors as the missile is ejected will be next. The UK's first operational F-35s will carry AMRAAMs, but the Meteor is scheduled for the stealth fighter's Block 4 software release.

MBDA reports significant export interest in the Meteor. The U.S. has no equivalent–unless a secret ("black") program is under way. Operational analysis conducted by the company suggests that a fighter firing the Meteor is six to eight times more likely to survive an air-to-air engagement against a representative threat than one equipped with a currently available medium-range AAM. However, it remains to be seen whether the European governments that sponsored the development will be willing to share Meteor's advanced technology with many other countries.
All of Meteor's advantages can be observed only if the target is less than the max range, advertised or not. At max range, the missile works quite like a regular missile, except that the cruise speed is higher.

Dont think so as even Brahmos , Akash SAM have similar performance altitude i.e 15-18 km , those altitude are good both in terms of ramjet burn ,atmospheric drag and to generate lift from control surfaces and body
I dunno. You said something about Ramjets being less efficient as conventional rocket motors at high altitudes in an earlier post.
 

Sam2012

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Move this close to LOC , We might see action very soon
 

WMD

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this photo is circulating on the net,
but its a diff. design than our MKIs
already order for 272 MKIs r given and those will b upgraded to super sukhoi,
so who's picture is this.
 

SajeevJino

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^^^ The Picture Looks like MiG 29 with some Paint Job...
 

Shirman

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Its a chinese Fanboy art....

Clue:- Look at manu name " Shenkhoi" instead of Sukhoi

also look just below the aircraft's nozzles far right down........
 

DivineHeretic

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this photo is circulating on the net,
but its a diff. design than our MKIs
already order for 272 MKIs r given and those will b upgraded to super sukhoi,
so who's picture is this.
It looks as if the aircraft has been squeezed length wise. Moreover the cannards are missing. So basically it rules out the mki. Could be a fanboy mod of the mig 29 though.
 

p2prada

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@Austin



This appears to be the Bars AESA radar.
@Armand2REP

The image on the bottom left should cure your phobia against IFF dipoles on AESA.
 
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Armand2REP

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@Austin



This appears to be the Bars AESA radar.
@Armand2REP

The image on the bottom left should cure your phobia against IFF dipoles on AESA.
Actually that close up is the NIIP N011M PESA for the Su-30 MKI.



Like I said before... AESA radars aren't going to have interrogators sticking out of them.
 
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p2prada

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The images look like screenshots from a video. They are all pics taken at the same time, in the same room and of the same radar.

That clearly looks like the Bars AESA. The second image has dipoles on the antenna as well.

The rear end of the PESA version isn't that small. It is massive.
 

Armand2REP

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The images look like screenshots from a video. They are all pics taken at the same time, in the same room and of the same radar.

That clearly looks like the Bars AESA. The second image has dipoles on the antenna as well.

The rear end of the PESA version isn't that small. It is massive.

The first radar in this set is the Bars AESA, there are clearly no interrogators sticking out of it.

The two radars in your OP were N011M and Irbis-E. I have seen that report before.
 
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Twinblade

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Take-off Magazine : Take-off magazine February 2013

From Take-off magazine, about Bars radar
- Upgrade path agreed in principle but no contract yet
- Upgrade in two steps as we already know
- AESA array for Bars after the development of Pak-fa radar is done.
- A lighter version of BARS, Bars-130 for Yak-130
- Testing done for Upgraded Bars for Su-30Mki and Su-30SM (?).
 

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