Sukhoi PAK FA

WolfPack86

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India, Russia 5th Generation Fighter Jet Deal is 'Lost'

India and Russia have hit another hurdle in moving forward with one of their most prestigious joint defense projects, the co-development and production of the the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), known in India as the Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF).

A senior Indian Air Force official revealed last week that Russia is demanding “an unaffordable price for the aircraft,” Defense News reported on May 24. According to the official, Moscow is allegedly demanding $7 billion from India as part of its share in the development of the fifth generation fighter jet, given that a work-sharing agreement currently under negotiation includes the transfer of sensitive Russian defense technology.

“India is not in a position to pay this kind of money, and the aircraft project appears to be lost,” the official said. India has been driving a hard bargain and the Indian Air Force official’s comment are likely intended to strengthen New Delhi’s bargaining position vis-à-vis Russia. Indian officials in May announced that the deal would not include tech transfers. “We are co-developers. There is nothing called technology transfer in this project,“ a government official said.

The transfer of sensitive defense technology from Russia to India has been one of the most contentious issues between the two sides right from the start, as I explained in March:

Before moving on, India wants a guarantee that it will be able to upgrade the fighter jet in the future without Russian support, which would require Moscow sharing source codes (sensitive computer code that controls the fighter jet’s various systems — the key to an aircraft’s electronic brains). In addition, the FGFA should directly support India’s advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) program — a separate Indian fifth generation fighter project.

At the beginning of the month, the issue appeared to have been resolved, according to Indian accounts, although Russia refused to comment on the negotiations publicly.

Following the official kickoff of the joint project in 2007, both countries concluded a preliminary $295 million design contract for the co-development of the FGFA/PMF in 2010. Right from the beginning both sides were at loggerheads, as I reported elsewhere:

Delays were caused by New Delhi and Moscow disagreeing over many fundamental aspects of the joint development project including work and cost share, aircraft technology, as well as the number of aircraft to be ordered. After evaluating the first PAK FA T-50 prototype (the Russian prototype of the PMF), the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted more than 40 changes addressing, among other things, perceived weaknesses in the plane’s engine, stealth, and weapon-carrying capabilities.


India and Russia also disagreed over the number of aircraft to be produced ::

Russia announced in late 2015 that it would only induct a squadron (18-24 aircraft) of PAK FA fighter aircraft, and procure additional Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft instead. The original deal involved Russia procuring 250 and India 144 aircraft at a cost of around $30 billion by 2022. As a result, India threatened to abandon the project in its entirety. Russia in turn made a number of concessions, including an offer to cut down its financial contribution from $6 to $3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and substantial technology transfers.

According to senior Russian defense officials, the Russian Air Force could possibly start receiving the first serial-produced fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA) multi-role fighter jet in 2018.

http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=262360
 

Kchontha

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This article seems to be in a hurry to write off FGFA and subsequently the AMCA. Next time it looks like they will be writing about the alternatives such as f16, f16, gripen etc etc. Then more Rafael.......blah blah blah.
 

kstriya

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This article seems to be in a hurry to write off FGFA and subsequently the AMCA. Next time it looks like they will be writing about the alternatives such as f16, f16, gripen etc etc. Then more Rafael.......blah blah blah.
I am sure we will sign a deal on our terms which will be a win win situation for both India & Russia. 7 billion is not a very large amount for a 5th gen fighter development if compared to F35 of LM. If we have some real TOT, we should be able to amortize the amount to at least next 3 categories of fighters i.e. FGFA, AMCA & a stealth LCA. This makes sense and we will be able to deliver a fully indigenous air component for our air force. Exports will be a add on as the current dispensation is willing to remove the tag of biggest arms importer to a net exporter.
 

scatterStorm

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India has invested far too much in the PAKFA/FGFA to just cancel and not get anything,. YES if India wants to opt out, Russia would not be under any obligation to pay what India invested or share the technology, Thus India has to either forego all that it invested, or else it has to move ahead. The probability is moving ahead. With our neighbours going for 5th Gen planes , that makes better sense than buying french 4th Gen junk.

If we are to take the Sukhoi people to their word.,.. PAKFA >> Su-35 > Su-30 MKI and as per the exercise in India involving French Rafales, Su-30 MKI >>> Rafales

Thus why would it make sense to buy Rafales when its beaten hands down by a plane which we use and we are offered a plane a generation ahead of it., Just a small point is that, Rafale cannot get into China unseen, because firstly wont be able to fly very low and get to the target deep in China (lets say 1500 kms away) and if it does, cannot really carry much to harm except a fly. So no stealth, and no range and this is overcome by PAKFA..
All the French can babble is about SPECTRA, but inspite of it being used , the Russians were apparently able to track Rafale in Syria/Iraq..

Thus FGFA might ultimately be the twin seater version of PAKFA ..
Who said any jet is a invulnerable, Rafale has also counters, besides if you have a well defended airspace than it's possible that even a 5th gen jet be shot down.

I already mentioned the thread that China isn't some easy task, even if US want to attack coastal based areas in a future confrontation, it's highly likely that they would go with full load out having external pylons ... situation will be a turkey shootout.
 

Kay

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I am sure we will sign a deal on our terms which will be a win win situation for both India & Russia. 7 billion is not a very large amount for a 5th gen fighter development if compared to F35 of LM. If we have some real TOT, we should be able to amortize the amount to at least next 3 categories of fighters i.e. FGFA, AMCA & a stealth LCA. This makes sense and we will be able to deliver a fully indigenous air component for our air force. Exports will be a add on as the current dispensation is willing to remove the tag of biggest arms importer to a net exporter.
Actually 7 billion is a lot of money...but we have the Super Sukhoi upgrade in pipeline...so negotiating a combined deal will bring down prices.
 

TPFscopes

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India has spent nearly 2000 Crores on Russia’s Pak-fa 5th generation fighter jet program even when it is not sure it will be joining the program to co-develop a customised version of the jets to meet Indian Air Force requirements, while on the other hand India’s own 5th generation AMCA fighter program was given official funding of only 230 crores.

It's the bitter side of Indigenous development.
 

gadeshi

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India has spent nearly 2000 Crores on Russia’s Pak-fa 5th generation fighter jet program even when it is not sure it will be joining the program to co-develop a customised version of the jets to meet Indian Air Force requirements, while on the other hand India’s own 5th generation AMCA fighter program was given official funding of only 230 crores.

It's the bitter side of Indigenous development.
It's a BS.
India has rejected the JV proposal on program start in 2002 and started negotiations after T-50-1 maiden flight back in 2010.
India does not pay for PAK FA even a cent, it's Russian internal programme.

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TPFscopes

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It's a BS.
India has rejected the JV proposal on program start in 2002 and started negotiations after T-50-1 maiden flight back in 2010.
India does not pay for PAK FA even a cent, it's Russian internal programme.

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In 2007, India & Russia started talks for FGFA. On 11 sept 2010 , Russia and India signed a MoU for FGFA, in which India agreed to invest $295 millions for preliminary design.

Sometimes in 2007 ,Sukhoi's director Mikhail Pogosyan stated: "We will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property in a 50–50 proportion" but later Russia lick it's spitted words and denies for sharing sophisticated technology.
 

gadeshi

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In 2007, India & Russia started talks for FGFA. On 11 sept 2010 , Russia and India signed a MoU for FGFA, in which India agreed to invest $295 millions for preliminary design.

Sometimes in 2007 ,Sukhoi's director Mikhail Pogosyan stated: "We will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property in a 50–50 proportion" but later Russia lick it's spitted words and denies for sharing sophisticated technology.
FGFA and PAK FA are separate projects, having no connection in between except PAK FA platform is a base for FGFA.
India has paid for FGFA, not for PAK FA.

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TPFscopes

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FGFA and PAK FA are separate projects, having no connection in between except PAK FA platform is a base for FGFA.
India has paid for FGFA, not for PAK FA.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
Oh! Really
So, according to your theory, we can't link Su-30MKI with Su-30.
FGFA is nothing more than a customised and improved (in terms of avionics and seating) version of PAK FA. There is no reason to split both names in either way.
 

gadeshi

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In 2007, India & Russia started talks for FGFA. On 11 sept 2010 , Russia and India signed a MoU for FGFA, in which India agreed to invest $295 millions for preliminary design.

Sometimes in 2007 ,Sukhoi's director Mikhail Pogosyan stated: "We will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property in a 50–50 proportion" but later Russia lick it's spitted words and denies for sharing sophisticated technology.
Pogosian has stated this for potential FGFA, not PAK FA.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
 

gadeshi

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Oh! Really
So, according to your theory, we can't link Su-30MKI with Su-30.
FGFA is nothing more than a customised and improved (in terms of avionics and seating) version of PAK FA. There is no reason to split both names in either way.
What theory???
Indians have not payd for T-10 (Su-27) platform development, neither for T-10PU (Su-30) one.
Indians have paid for T-10PU customization to Su-30MKI, nothing more.

T-50 case is the same.
Russians made T-50 platform on their own without any foregn efforts.
Indians will pay for FGFA fighter based on T-50 platform and for wide TOT to make it in India.
But this doesn't mean that Indians paid even a cent for original PAK FA project itself.

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TPFscopes

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What theory???
Indians have not payd for T-10 (Su-27) platform development, neither for T-10PU (Su-30) one.
Indians have paid for T-10PU customization to Su-30MKI, nothing more.

T-50 case is the same.
Russians made T-50 platform on their own without any foregn efforts.
Indians will pay for FGFA fighter based on T-50 platform and for wide TOT to make it in India.
But this doesn't mean that Indians paid even a cent for original PAK FA project itself.

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First, you need to understand the FGFA scenerio from the very beginning (politically ,not technically). Than surely, I'll clear your all doubts about it..

In simple terms, I will still say that FGFA is nothing more than twin seat customised PAK FA (T-50) with IAF's proposed 43 ammendments.
 

Sam Biswas

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Oh! Really
So, according to your theory, we can't link Su-30MKI with Su-30.
FGFA is nothing more than a customised and improved (in terms of avionics and seating) version of PAK FA. There is no reason to split both names in either way.
India should get real and put safety of IAF personnel and India in the front. We all know, FGFA/PAK-FA does not exist and will not materialize for decades. India already spent billions on Rafales that will not come for years and a fourth gen fighter. Why would you be spending another ten billions for FGFA which will not come for decades when you can easily buy F-35s from USA. We all know F-35 is the only fighter availabele to India that can go inside China and Pakistan with impunity. The only reasons India will be buying other jets are stupidity and under the table deals.
 

Kay

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India should get real and put safety of IAF personnel and India in the front. We all know, FGFA/PAK-FA does not exist and will not materialize for decades. India already spent billions on Rafales that will not come for years and a fourth gen fighter. Why would you be spending another ten billions for FGFA which will not come for decades when you can easily buy F-35s from USA. We all know F-35 is the only fighter availabele to India that can go inside China and Pakistan with impunity. The only reasons India will be buying other jets are stupidity and under the table deals.
F-35?
Not sure if you are serious or sarcastic...
 

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