Sukhoi PAK FA

[Cutting Edge 2]

They small number is for training and developing tactics, once they know what are the limits and how ur should be used they will order a large number.

they are still not sure on how PAKFA should be used? This is not at all confident.

RAF has made their minds they are going with SU-35 as their frontline fighter. Russian economy isn't powerful enough to induct both PakFa and SU-35 in large nos.

it does have a proper shape.

Nope.

It is said by the Russian defence minister that Pak Fa belongs to 2018-2025 defence upgrade plan. All most all test are completed. Only test remaining are for new engine and weapons which can happen after the plane has been inducted.

Engine and weapons are the most important part of a bird. right? How do you expect a foreign buyer to place a large order of 5th gen planes without FOC from a country who is reluctant to commit itself.

I am just being realistic. I am not saying PakFa is bad. There are million good things about it but because of many technological issues and in current geopolitical climate, this deal just won't work for IAF.

 

[Pulkit]

Has the decision being made in terms of Cost and Work Share or are we still stuck where we were 1 year back?

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Has the decision being made in terms of Cost and Work Share or are we still stuck where we were 1 year back?

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-combat-aircraft-hal.36/page-128#post-1303290

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-combat-aircraft-hal.36/page-129#post-1303539

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Steep price rise hits Indo-Russian 5th-gen fighter project
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, May 24, 2017

NEW DELHI — Just when its production was about to take off, the Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft appears to be "lost" because Russians are demanding an "unaffordable price for the aircraft," according to a senior Indian Air Force official.

The Russians are demanding more than $7 billion as part of India's share in the development of the FGFA. The Russian side argues that the higher price is justified because the aircraft's development will include transfer of technology of several high-tech systems.

"India is not in a position to pay this kind of money, and the aircraft project appears to be lost " the official said.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/steep-price-rise-hits-indo-russian-5th-gen-fighter-project

 

[IndianHawk]

Steep price rise hits Indo-Russian 5th-gen fighter project
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, May 24, 2017

NEW DELHI — Just when its production was about to take off, the Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft appears to be "lost" because Russians are demanding an "unaffordable price for the aircraft," according to a senior Indian Air Force official.

The Russians are demanding more than $7 billion as part of India's share in the development of the FGFA. The Russian side argues that the higher price is justified because the aircraft's development will include transfer of technology of several high-tech systems.

"India is not in a position to pay this kind of money, and the aircraft project appears to be lost " the official said.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/steep-price-rise-hits-indo-russian-5th-gen-fighter-project

Too much for co-development drama. We will pay huge amount and later forced to import even tyres from Russia.

Scrap the deal just by 50 planes of the shelf if need be or go for f35s.

Put 7 billion dollars for Amca .
Going for this crappy co-development fasade will be highly corrupted move.

 

[smestarz]

unnamed official are not really the best source of information, least credible

Steep price rise hits Indo-Russian 5th-gen fighter project
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, May 24, 2017

NEW DELHI — Just when its production was about to take off, the Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft appears to be "lost" because Russians are demanding an "unaffordable price for the aircraft," according to a senior Indian Air Force official.

The Russians are demanding more than $7 billion as part of India's share in the development of the FGFA. The Russian side argues that the higher price is justified because the aircraft's development will include transfer of technology of several high-tech systems.

"India is not in a position to pay this kind of money, and the aircraft project appears to be lost " the official said.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/steep-price-rise-hits-indo-russian-5th-gen-fighter-project

 

[IndianHawk]

unnamed official are not really the best source of information, least credible

Whatever is written is quite predictable. Russians have overcharged overpromised and underdelivered many a times. Remember gorshkove mig29k and about tech transfer it's obvious there is not going to be anything significant .

I'd say article is pretty spot on.

 

[smestarz]

The Russians did overcharge us, but are you sure the reason was not commission?
With all the news thats coming out about the UPA, they went totally soft on Pakistan and even now want the Modi Govt to involve in discussions.. I would not be surprised if it was later informed that half the money spent for Vikramaditya was sent to Italian waitress The deal was signed in Jan 2004 during NDA rule and then price went up !!

Whatever is written is quite predictable. Russians have overcharged overpromised and underdelivered many a times. Remember gorshkove mig29k and about tech transfer it's obvious there is not going to be anything significant .

I'd say article is pretty spot on.

 

[IndianHawk]

The Russians did overcharge us, but are you sure the reason was not commission?
With all the news thats coming out about the UPA, they went totally soft on Pakistan and even now want the Modi Govt to involve in discussions.. I would not be surprised if it was later informed that half the money spent for Vikramaditya was sent to Italian waitress The deal was signed in Jan 2004 during NDA rule and then price went up !!

If it was only money!!

The thing is apart from curruption Russian delayed the whole thing by years and years. Due to their institutional incapacity. For which we paid in both time and money.

PAKFA suffers from same institutional bottlenecks. It is already delayed and will be delayed still .

Even then my gourse is that we won't be learning anything significant despite all this.

 

[WolfPack86]

Lets buy some 36 F-35A from USA and put rest of the money in AMCA

 

[TPFscopes]

I still doubt F-35 for IAF but I agreed to put fluent cash flow for AMCA Project

 

[square]

rafale was a calculaton mistake...126 rafale deal under mmrca should have been done .....

 

[Bahamut]

Too much for co-development drama. We will pay huge amount and later forced to import even tyres from Russia.

Scrap the deal just by 50 planes of the shelf if need be or go for f35s.

Put 7 billion dollars for Amca .
Going for this crappy co-development fasade will be highly corrupted move.

Many facilities for production of PakFa will be reused in AMCA, plus facilities like semiconductor manufacturing, engineering alloy production cost in fortune but are one time investment and are in used for decades to come

 

[Sunstersun]

If the FGFA deal falls out, more rafales + AMCA funding seems like putting all your eggs in one basket.

 

[square]

mig29 was the only incident when induan forces diviate from their decision as they buy mig29 just after miraje...

i do not think they going to diviate again after buying rafale...

 

[gadeshi]

More T-50-9 (1-09) for your pleasure:

And facts film for foreign viewers (made by American):

 

[Armand2REP]

Too much for co-development drama. We will pay huge amount and later forced to import even tyres from Russia.

Scrap the deal just by 50 planes of the shelf if need be or go for f35s.

Put 7 billion dollars for Amca .
Going for this crappy co-development fasade will be highly corrupted move.

India should let Russia pay the development cost, when all 40 parameters are met then a deal can be struck. Not one more penny until then.

 

[IndianHawk]

India should let Russia pay the development cost, when all 40 parameters are met then a deal can be struck. Not one more penny until then.

These 40 changes are being demanded by India for FGFA . Russia is satisfied with PAKFA as it is. So either India foots the bill or there is no FGFA . Then India can simply procure PAKFA as is from Russia off the shelf. And that is what I prefer over the co-development hoax.

 

[Filtercoffee]

These 40 changes are being demanded by India for FGFA . Russia is satisfied with PAKFA as it is. So either India foots the bill or there is no FGFA . Then India can simply procure PAKFA as is from Russia off the shelf. And that is what I prefer over the co-development hoax.

Could you provide a link for these changes demanded by the IAF? We can always ask for changes later, just as we did for Su-30K, to be made to MKI standards and now super Sukhoi. Cancellation sounds like a hoax by the way.

 

[smestarz]

India has invested far too much in the PAKFA/FGFA to just cancel and not get anything,. YES if India wants to opt out, Russia would not be under any obligation to pay what India invested or share the technology, Thus India has to either forego all that it invested, or else it has to move ahead. The probability is moving ahead. With our neighbours going for 5th Gen planes , that makes better sense than buying french 4th Gen junk.

If we are to take the Sukhoi people to their word.,.. PAKFA >> Su-35 > Su-30 MKI and as per the exercise in India involving French Rafales, Su-30 MKI >>> Rafales

Thus why would it make sense to buy Rafales when its beaten hands down by a plane which we use and we are offered a plane a generation ahead of it., Just a small point is that, Rafale cannot get into China unseen, because firstly wont be able to fly very low and get to the target deep in China (lets say 1500 kms away) and if it does, cannot really carry much to harm except a fly. So no stealth, and no range and this is overcome by PAKFA..
All the French can babble is about SPECTRA, but inspite of it being used , the Russians were apparently able to track Rafale in Syria/Iraq..

Thus FGFA might ultimately be the twin seater version of PAKFA ..

Could you provide a link for these changes demanded by the IAF? We can always ask for changes later, just as we did for Su-30K, to be made to MKI standards and now super Sukhoi. Cancellation sounds like a hoax by the way.