Suitable Jaguar Replacement

brahmastra11

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

I am still interested to know/read how 1 Rafale equals to 5 Tejas.. I did not find any technical proof / comparison for the claim in the posted thread.

If no credible source posted by you for the claim i shall believe you are one among who believes anything without knowing the truth.. Enough materials available now for comparison of Tejas and Rafale after IOC-2 of Tejas.

If you do not have credible source, please avoid reposting false claims.
.

about the 1:5 measure ..Looks the below threads

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca-209.html

Post Number 3134

and read this Thread Too

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/57536-dassault-bosses-india-seal-mother-all-defence-deals.html



about the Costly Mirage Upgrade i can add the TB's #70 in my #57
 

ersakthivel

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

..
About the costly Mirage Upgrades.

The French Company Closed the Production line of Mirage ..So if we need upgrade we must have Production lines ..So some Money goes to for implementing the Production Line .

Second one we have no other options in our Arsenal like MRCA Mirage ..no other IAF aircraft can't satisfy MIrage's Performance ..So mirage needs Must for IAF ..!!

About the Tejas ..we need 5 tejas to do a Job while a Single Rafale Can do this ..That means Only two Pilots ..some fuel ..only one Hanger ..four or Five Engines and Accommodations so Up keep cost something lower ..if the same for Tejas we need it about 5 times more infra ..10 Pilots lots of fuel 5 hanger about 10+ Engines ..
Most of the jobs meant for RAAFLE can be done by few excess squadrons of super sukhoi , in long range missions,along with future UCAV fleets,and nirbhay long range cruise missiles,.

In medium and short range missions and air defence, two or at the most three tejas mk-2 can do the job of one RAFALE,

But the mission success increase manifold when you have three Tejas mk-2 present in three different places at the same time with three asea radars and EW suits , In close combat this three fighter combo becomes invaluable,

For example the tejas mk-2 in the back can be the radar emitting spotter and the one at the front will be a silent shooter, an unbeatable combo , Can one rafale give such an advantage, Simply no,

Do you think one rafale can engage three tejas mk-2 in close combat at WVR range and win? Certainly no,

In close combat number of fighters are very important.

So even though we have to put three pilots in place of one the advantages of mission success are manifold in case of tejas mk-2, it is not for nothing that grippen is winning many competitions against rafale and typhoon,
 
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ersakthivel

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Im not telling that we have to go with Ex IAF cheif words , i meant even if we agree on his comments still LCA is good enough to replace Mig-21 & 27 in IOC-1 configuration :thumb:

Mig-21+++ Cheif refers advance version of Mig-21 i guess , DRDO cheif ,ADA chief & HAL MD all were present when Sir Vasant naik labelled LCA Mig-21+++ aircraft

LCA Tejas will be an advanced version of MiG 21: IAF chief - Brahmand.com

Again Test pilot comments might be baised or he might be 100% right you never know

But IAF is reluctant to induct LCA in numbers that is true , which is sad . While Navy is backing up the project but the get second preference from ADA/HAL which is sad:confused:
Asked to compare the aircraft with its contemporaries, Naik said it would be just short of Swedish Gripen NG single engine aircraft.
Then do you think Grippen Ng is also Mig-21 ++?

test pilot flies the craft and knows it, helicopter pilots don't know about it, That is the difference,

Suneet krishna is no ordinary test pilot,

He is a group captain and has flown all fighters in IAF including the mirage-2000 and all his statements are accurate

, no ++, -- BS jerked out by guys who don't even know the basic difference in cutting edge technology employed in tejas, short of stealth and asea , it has all the tech present in any 5th gen fighter like composites, RSS fly by wire, it is a true multi role fighter as well(swing or omni , any fancy name you can give!!!)

What is in Mig-21?

both the fighters are fundamentally different in class,
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Tejas MK1 technology is at near level of Rafale and typhoon, Do read about Tejas MK 1 stealth inputs in airframe and avionics suit ..

================

The term ' Bomb trucks ' are mere company advertisement terminology, Bomb trucks are obsolete in today's warfare ..

In today`s warfare precision bombing is the key, While deep penetration mass attack is taken by cruise missiles ..

An smart modern Air-force does not risk pilots on such suicide mission deep inside enemy air defense ..

=================

Its unfortunate that despite such vast knowledge flowing in this forum, people making such comments, Its not pleasant always to read such comments ..


Jaguar can bomb 1000 km away and RTB ..where Late Combat Aircraft bomb 500km and RTB ..!!!

and Jaguar is like a Heavy Truck ..where LCA is Tata Ape
 

ersakthivel

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Jaguar can bomb 1000 km away and RTB ..where Late Combat Aircraft bomb 500km and RTB ..!!!

and Jaguar is like a Heavy Truck ..where LCA is Tata Ape
The Beta Coefficient...: Search results for lca

Some interesting statements on combat range of tejas in different profiles, presented by Vivek Ahuja

Low altitude air space penetration flight profile (4x 250 kg bombs, fuel max internal and all available external)combat radius of 700 Km,

high altitude PGM attack profile (2 LGBs , all available external and internal fuel)- a combat radius of 1200 Km,

HAL gives a radius of action up to 500 Km for tejas, but does not specifies the fuel or weapon combo along with flight altitude,

Mirage-2000 has a fuel fraction of around 30 percent similar to tejas,

So I think there won't be any significant difference combat range between the two fighters if similar altitude and roles are assigned with optimum load capacity for each fighter,

needs some clarification as well,

Do you really think a jag is still modern enough to penetrate 1000 Km deep into chinese air space and return with the kind of TWR , radar and avionics suit?

Do you expect jag to engage in a dog fight with challenging PAF or PLAF fighter in case it is interdicted?

What is the ITR and STR of Jag? Can it survive a dog fight even with a JF-17?

Why are so many people in this forum try to kill poor jag pilots who are ready to make the supreme sacrifice for the nation by denying them tejas mk-1 squadrons at the earliest, with 40 plus per year tejas mk-1 and mk-2 production?

Why should they be tied to an inferior fighter when a smashing alternative like tejas mk-2 is available?

If french say RAFALE is omni role , which can defend itself well during strike mission s, we swallow it hook , line and sinker

But when ADA delivers the same quality fighter with shorter range, we compare it to jaguar, which has a TWR of 0.64 and began life as a trainer in the post world war two era, (and retired in all other western air forces ),

With a TWR of 0.64 can it out turn a shoulder fired SAM? let alone the modern gen air to air missile,

people are ready to spend 20 billion dollar on just six rafale squadrons, but won't think about replacing retired all over the world jag with a 4.5th gen fighter like tejas , strange piece of logic,
 
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ersakthivel

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Jaguar while flies at low level, Lca can cover it from high altitude
so range difference will reduce..

Truck for bombing and ape for covering the truck mate,,..
jag can't survive against a modern SAM,

In reality a Jag is much less worthy than the pilot inside in it,

it is stupid to risk the life of a pilot who is skilled on such an out dated platform which started life as a post world war -2 era trainer,
 

SajeevJino

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Most of the jobs meant for RAAFLE can be done by few excess squadrons of super sukhoi , in long range missions,along with future UCAV fleets,and nirbhay long range cruise missiles,.
Rafale can Stand alone to defeat most of the Bombing , CAP and CAS missions ..once Air Superiority achieved

In medium and short range missions and air defence, two or at the most three tejas mk-2 can do the job of one RAFALE,
here again ..Is that the same word again 2 Tejas MK 2 = 1 Rafale

But the mission success increase manifold when you have three Tejas mk-2 present in three different places at the same time with three asea radars and EW suits , In close combat this three fighter combo becomes invaluable,

For example the tejas mk-2 in the back can be the radar emitting spotter and the one at the front will be a silent shooter, an unbeatable combo , Can one rafale give such an advantage, Simply no,
Still MK2 in papers ..Can we talk about MK 1


Do you think one rafale can engage three tejas mk-2 in close combat at WVR range and win? Certainly no,


In close combat number of fighters are very important.
Should the Tejas comes with WVR missiles in combat ...I taught they carry Long range BVR's and detect the enemy first engae and Guide then RTB

So even though we have to put three pilots in place of one the advantages of mission success are manifold in case of tejas mk-2, it is not for nothing that grippen is winning many competitions against rafale and typhoon,
again ..Is the IAF Send the Tejas as a Interceptor
 

SajeevJino

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

needs some clarification as well,

Do you really think a jag is still modern enough to penetrate 1000 Km deep into chinese air space and return with the kind of TWR , radar and avionics suit?
Not for SEAD ..once Air Superiority Acheived The Jag can kill the enemy infrastructure unmercifully ..how can the AF send their Bombers inside a enemy territory without achieving air Superiority

Do you expect jag to engage in a dog fight with challenging PAF or PLAF fighter in case it is interdicted?What is the ITR and STR of Jag? Can it survive a dog fight even with a JF-17?
Jag is a Bomber ..dedicated for Ground Attack ..How can it face the Interceptors

Why are so many people in this forum try to kill poor jag pilots who are ready to make the supreme sacrifice for the nation by denying them tejas mk-1 squadrons at the earliest, with 40 plus per year tejas mk-1 and mk-2 production?
does the LCA can carry the Payload of Jag and Bomb the same as Jag do ..the LCA can support the Jag to attack the land Targets where LCA can look for Enemy intrude

Why should they be tied to an inferior fighter when a smashing alternative like tejas mk-2 is available?


If french say RAFALE is omni role , which can defend itself well during strike mission s, we swallow it hook , line and sinker

But when ADA delivers the same quality fighter with shorter range, we compare it to jaguar, which has a TWR of 0.64 and began life as a trainer in the post world war two era, (and retired in all other western air forces ),
Matter is Rafale is a Biggy and Heavy and Can stay in the Air long time ..where the LCA can stay for Quite Some time ..we give the missions of LCA to strike against Moaists and other Rebels and Some Air Cover for Missions for our Soldiers


With a TWR of 0.64 can it out turn a shoulder fired SAM? let alone the modern gen air to air missile,
sorry I don't know about it

people are ready to spend 20 billion dollar on just six rafale squadrons, but won't think about replacing retired all over the world jag with a 4.5th gen fighter like tejas , strange piece of logic,
First we should talk about replacing the Mig's then we can go to Jaguars
 

brahmastra11

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Please mention the number of extra pylons we get

Most of the jobs meant for RAAFLE can be done by few excess squadrons of super sukhoi , in long range missions,along with future UCAV fleets,and nirbhay long range cruise missiles,.

In medium and short range missions and air defence, two or at the most three tejas mk-2 can do the job of one RAFALE,

But the mission success increase manifold when you have three Tejas mk-2 present in three different places at the same time with three asea radars and EW suits , In close combat this three fighter combo becomes invaluable,

For example the tejas mk-2 in the back can be the radar emitting spotter and the one at the front will be a silent shooter, an unbeatable combo , Can one rafale give such an advantage, Simply no,

Do you think one rafale can engage three tejas mk-2 in close combat at WVR range and win? Certainly no,

In close combat number of fighters are very important.

So even though we have to put three pilots in place of one the advantages of mission success are manifold in case of tejas mk-2, it is not for nothing that grippen is winning many competitions against rafale and typhoon,
 

ersakthivel

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Not for SEAD ..once Air Superiority Acheived The Jag can kill the enemy infrastructure unmercifully ..how can the AF send their Bombers inside a enemy territory without achieving air Superiority



Jag is a Bomber ..dedicated for Ground Attack ..How can it face the Interceptors



does the LCA can carry the Payload of Jag and Bomb the same as Jag do ..the LCA can support the Jag to attack the land Targets where LCA can look for Enemy intrude

Why should they be tied to an inferior fighter when a smashing alternative like tejas mk-2 is available?




Matter is Rafale is a Biggy and Heavy and Can stay in the Air long time ..where the LCA can stay for Quite Some time ..we give the missions of LCA to strike against Moaists and other Rebels and Some Air Cover for Missions for our Soldiers




sorry I don't know about it



First we should talk about replacing the Mig's then we can go to Jaguars
Staying in air for a long time depends upon the fuel fraction , not being biggy ,

Please post the ,
1,empty weight ,
2. TWR,
3. Internal fuel load,
4, External weapon load,
5, AOA,
6, STR,
7, ITR

of both jag and tejas , then you can see the difference yourself,

Point is even if air superiority is achieved your so called bomber should have the ITR and STR, along with good AOA and TWR to evade a simple shoulder fired SAM.
 

suny6611

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

I've Had the same thought,, Tata Aerospace can take up production, its already batch producing sirkosky helicopters, with HAL's Tata can start a parallel production line there by augmenting the production rate..


"batch producing sirkosky helicopters" where in India ?
 

archie

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Jaguar can bomb 1000 km away and RTB ..where Late Combat Aircraft bomb 500km and RTB ..!!!

and Jaguar is like a Heavy Truck ..where LCA is Tata Ape
If we are take out a target 1000 Km away deep inside we can very well launch a Prithvi / Bahamos /nirubay/agni 1 and watch on screen then to risk a pilot .. Seems logical to me
 

SajeevJino

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

If we are take out a target 1000 Km away deep inside we can very well launch a Prithvi / Bahamos /nirubay/agni 1 and watch on screen then to risk a pilot .. Seems logical to me
Why was the Jaguar Developed ..ever Heard CAS missions and Strike Missions

If negative answer '

we can stop using air force and use the indigenous missiles for Strike and Satellites for Recon ..except naval aviation

One more thing the the Ballistic missiles have CEP valued ~5 ..striking Bunkers using BM is seems Joke That one fits on the Chinese and their blah blah DF 31 ASBM
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

The question is, Why you are dragging Obsolete Jaguar and comparing it with Tejas missions and roles .. ?

Jags as strike fighter and for CAS suited in late 80s till mid 90s, After wards its all Multi-roles ..

============

Lets be honest, Are you trolling here or for sake of argument winning .. ?

Why was the Jaguar Developed ..ever Heard CAS missions and Strike Missions

If negative answer '

we can stop using air force and use the indigenous missiles for Strike and Satellites for Recon ..except naval aviation

One more thing the the Ballistic missiles have CEP valued ~5 ..striking Bunkers using BM is seems Joke That one fits on the Chinese and their blah blah DF 31 ASBM
Why was the Jaguar Developed ..ever Heard CAS missions and Strike Missions

If negative answer '

we can stop using air force and use the indigenous missiles for Strike and Satellites for Recon ..except naval aviation

One more thing the the Ballistic missiles have CEP valued ~5 ..striking Bunkers using BM is seems Joke That one fits on the Chinese and their blah blah DF 31 ASBM
 

ersakthivel

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Why was the Jaguar Developed ..ever Heard CAS missions and Strike Missions

If negative answer '

we can stop using air force and use the indigenous missiles for Strike and Satellites for Recon ..except naval aviation

One more thing the the Ballistic missiles have CEP valued ~5 ..striking Bunkers using BM is seems Joke That one fits on the Chinese and their blah blah DF 31 ASBM
you can see why was jag developed here in the following link,

http://www.airvectors.net/avjag.html

the basic need behind jag was to develop a trainer aircraft with secondary strike capacity,

You are simply mixing up combat range with combat radius and drawing all the wrong conclusions on jaguar,

jag too has 7 ton empty weight and 3 ton of fuel fuel + liquids +ammo ,more or less in the same ratio of tejas 6.5 ton empty weight and 3 tons internal fuel + liquids + ammo

So they will have almost the same range for same mission profile.

If you have followed vivek Ahuja's post , which is the most informative on BR you could have made out there is no range difference between tejas and most of the planes in IAF besides Su-30 MKI, .

The combat radius of 1,410 kilometers 875 MI / 760 NMI for jaguar is given for hi-lo-hi mission profile,

http://mach-five.blogspot.in/search?q=lca

Some interesting statements on combat range of tejas in different profiles, presented by Vivek Ahuja

Low altitude air space penetration flight profile (4x 250 kg bombs, fuel max internal and all available external)combat radius of 700 Km,

high altitude PGM attack profile (2 LGBs , all available external and internal fuel)- a combat radius of 1200 Km,

HAL gives a radius of action up to 500 Km for tejas, but does not specifies the fuel or weapon combo along with flight altitude,

Mirage-2000 has a fuel fraction of around 30 percent similar to tejas,

So I think there won't be any significant difference combat range between the two fighters if similar altitude and roles are assigned with optimum load capacity for each fighter,

needs some clarification as well,

Do you really think a jag is still modern enough to penetrate 1000 Km deep into chinese air space and return with the kind of TWR , radar and avionics suit?

Do you expect jag to engage in a dog fight with challenging PAF or PLAF fighter in case it is interdicted?

What is the ITR and STR of Jag? Can it survive a dog fight even with a JF-17?

Why are so many people in this forum try to kill poor jag pilots who are ready to make the supreme sacrifice for the nation by denying them tejas mk-1 squadrons at the earliest, with 40 plus per year tejas mk-1 and mk-2 production?

Why should they be tied to an inferior fighter when a smashing alternative like tejas mk-2 is available?

If french say RAFALE is omni role , which can defend itself well during strike mission s, we swallow it hook , line and sinker

But when ADA delivers the same quality fighter with shorter range, we compare it to jaguar, which has a TWR of 0.64 (TWR ratio of tejas mk-1 is 1.07 and is slated to increase further in mk-2 closer to RAAFLE level)and began life as a trainer in the post world war two era, (and retired in all other western air forces ),

With a TWR of 0.64 can it out turn a shoulder fired SAM? let alone the modern gen air to air missile,
 
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SajeevJino

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

The question is, Why you are dragging Obsolete Jaguar and comparing it with Tejas missions and roles .. ?

Jags as strike fighter and for CAS suited in late 80s till mid 90s, After wards its all Multi-roles ..

============

Lets be honest, Are you trolling here or for sake of argument winning .. ?
On my views about the Jags

sorry for the quote from Wiki

as well as providing a ready nuclear delivery platform for Britain, France, and India throughout the latter half of the Cold War and beyond. In the Gulf War, the Jaguar was praised for its reliability and was a valuable coalition resource. The aircraft served with the Armée de l'Air as the main strike/attack aircraft until 1 July 2005, and with the Royal Air Force until the end of April 2007. It was replaced by the Panavia Tornado and the Eurofighter Typhoon in the RAF and the Dassault Rafale in the Armée de l'Air. India plans in the long term to replace its Jaguar fleet with the developing Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)
I don't Know How much that one is credible ..Except the Indian AMCA Replacement

While in operational theatres such as the Gulf War the Jaguar proved to be mechanically more reliable than the Panavia Tornado, the aircraft's avionics were a hindrance to conducting missions
the IAF defining its role as a "deep penetrating strike aircraft".

and so on add the DARIN III upgrade ..

overall the Mission about ..Jaguars is Deep penetration and Recon for Long range and Long time

A good Post by @p2prada

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/41573-indian-jaguar-upgrade-3.html#post599750



Simple One Sir


you are on @ersakthivel Team ..and I'm in @p2prada Team ...

both Peoples have Different Opinion some takes ER's word some takes P2p word
 
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ersakthivel

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

On my views about the Jags

sorry for the quote from Wiki



I don't Know How much that one is credible ..Except the Indian AMCA Replacement




and so on add the DARIN III upgrade ..

overall the Mission about ..Jaguars is Deep penetration and Recon for Long range and Long time

A good Post by @p2prada

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/41573-indian-jaguar-upgrade-3.html#post599750



Simple One Sir


you are on @ersakthivel Team ..and I'm in @p2prada Team ...

both Peoples have Different Opinion some takes ER's word some takes P2p word
I asked you a pointed question about Vivek Ahuja's post in BR where you asked question about Tejas range, indranil said it was 500 Km , and Vivek Ahuja made detailed presentation about tejas range,



jag's combat radius of 1000 km is for hi lo hi profile,\

tejas too has the same fuel fraction and many times fuel efficient engine and it was analysed to have a 1200 km combat radius for the same hi -hi mission by Vivek ahujha with 4x250 kg bombs, Jag too won't carry much bomb load if it has to reach a max combat radius of 1000 km .

So other than wishful sentiments nothing separated them,

What puts the jag pilot in peril is the abysmally low powered engine that makes his chances of getting back to base once he is countered with any modern air defence means and any other 3 rg gen fighter,

Since it was designed primarily as a trainer aircraft with secondary strike capability , its two engines have a total of just 54 Kn power,

The single engine of tejas itself has 84 Kn power, that will explain a lot of things to you.

DARIN upgrade is just for avionics, I is not going to change the aerdynamics of this jurasic era trainer with secondary strike capability.

In fact it arrived as a handicapped child in with no eyes and ears for deep penetration strike IAF and rescued by local talent with a useful nav attack system

http://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/03/07/the-darin-story/

The need for a Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (DPSA) for the IAF had long been felt. We actually started talking about it using that name in the late sixties and we were allowed to window shop and dream about it in the early seventies.

We were searching for an aircraft that could carry about two tons of armament at high combat speeds, penetrate by about 250 nautical miles in the 'lo-lo' mode,

and deliver the ordnance with great accuracy. We also wanted a complete transfer of technology and a license to manufacture the aircraft with all its components in India. Our effort took a concrete shape only in late seventies when our search narrowed down to the Anglo-French Jaguar after a long search and much acrimony.
So in the lo-lo mode the penetration level of jag is given as 250 nautical miles (with useful combat loads I think ). In the high -high mode with fewer bombs and heavy external fuel loads it too can do 1000 plus Km with very low air to air capability.

tejas combat radius for lo-lo mode is given out as 700 Km by vivek Ahuja in his blog. You can always go to BR and ask for a comparison rather than dividing DFItes into two teams,

Purpose of thread is to educate every one on the subject under discussion , not to divide posters in two teams and argue forever with no relation to truth.

What ever I posted is presented with links to back it.

have an interesting read in the link above for some home truths about jag.

It did its duty in it's time. But to say tejas can not do the job that can be done by jag is stretching things to limit.

With resourceful enemies like pak and china , expecting complete air superiority even with all the shoulder fired modern SAMS to be eliminated is just dreaming.

Tejas can take up air superiority role in the start of the war as it has an excellent TWR and good ITR along with decent STR.

And it can immediately switch to PGM bombing with litening pod even while carrying 120 Km range BVR missiles to defend itself against enemy fighter with a powerful radar.

jag can do neither and it will need dedicated air escort for saving itself.

but BVRs and shoulder fired SAMs won't excuse you if you declare I am just a trainer with secondary strike capability.

the best thing jag can do is to provide close air support staying near border on friendly airspace watched over by air to air capable fighters like tejas, Su-30 MKI and mig-29

Jag won't be able to pull a high g turn time in time to avoid the modern very agile shoulder fired SAMs which are hard to defeat.
 
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Agnostic_Indian

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Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

@ersakthivel
jaguar t/w of 0.64 ? with honeywell F125IN with 6230 lbf dry thrust ???
 
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