Su-9, Su-11 and Su-15

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by fulcrum, Nov 26, 2009.

  1. fulcrum

    fulcrum Regular Member

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    Russia's little known fighter-interceptors Su-9, Su-11 and the twin engine Su-15 are well known among the Russian Air defence squadrons, but not outside of it. Su-15 was to Su-27 what Mig-23ML was to Mig-29. Similarly Su-9/11 was the Mig-21 equivalent. But there are some differences between Su-9/11 and the Mig-21. Su-9/11 was heavier, carried radar guided missiles, had a higher service ceiling and better thrust weight ratios(the thrust weight ratios given below). But why didn't it get heavily-mass produced and exported like the Mig-21? Was it because of politics since the Mig bureau had more Communist party contacts than the Sukhoi bureau? Or was it because Mig-21 came out first? Was Mig-21 more maneuverable that the sukhoi counterparts? In any case it reaffirms one thing, Sukhoi preferred heavier larger fighters with powerful engines while the mig preferred smaller nimble designs.

    T/W ratio = Max Thrust of Engine(s) / (Empty Weight + (3.505 tonnes of fuel & weapons, or only internal Fuel))

    1.37 - F-22
    1.29 - Su-35BM
    1.29 - F-15K
    1.26 - Su-27S
    1.25 - Eurofighter
    1.23 - Su-27SK & J-11A
    1.19 - F-15C
    1.19 - Rafale C
    1.18 - Mig-29M/M2
    1.16 - Su-30MKK

    1.15 - F/A-18E/F
    1.15 - Mig-29A
    1.14 - Su-30MKI
    1.13 - Rafale M
    1.13 - Mig-29 S & SM
    1.10 - Mig-29 BM & SMT
    1.09 - F-16E Block 60
    1.09 - F-18C
    1.09 - J-8III(or J-8C)
    1.08 - F-35A

    1.08 - Mig-29K
    1.08 - F-14 B & D
    1.06 - F-16C Block 52 (Block 50: T/W = 1.055)
    1.05 - J-8IIm
    1.04 - AV-8B+ Harrier II
    1.03 - F-2A (F-2B: 1.02)
    1.03 - JH-7
    1.02 - F-16A Block 10
    1.01 - J-8II & J-8IIb & J-8IId
    1.00 - F-35B

    1.00 - Harrier GR7A
    0.99 - Su-34 & Su-32FN & Su-27IB
    0.99 - Sea Harrier FA2 & FRS51
    0.99 - F-16A Block 20
    0.98 - J-10
    0.97 - Su-15T
    0.95 - MiG-23 ML, MLA & MLD
    0.95 - Mig-23P
    0.94 - F-35C
    0.94 - Gripen NG

    0.94 - F-4E
    0.94 - J-8
    0.93 - Mirage 2000-5
    0.93 - Su-15TM
    0.93 - F-101B
    0.92 - Harrier GR7
    0.92 - E E Lightning F6
    0.91 - F-16C Block 25
    0.91 - Yak-28 I & P
    0.91 - F-111F

    0.91 - Su-24
    0.90 - Su-15
    0.88 - Mirage-2000 C & H
    0.88 - LCA
    0.87 - F-14A
    0.87 - Mig-23 MF & MS
    0.87 - Su-24 M, MK & M2
    0.86 - F-CK-1
    0.86 - Su-9
    0.84 - JF-17

    0.84 - Su-11
    0.84 - Su-17M
    0.83 - Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
    0.83 - Tornado GR1
    0.83 - Su-20
    0.82 - Su-22
    0.81 - Gripen A
    0.81 - Su-7B
    0.81 - F-20
    0.80 - Gripen C

    0.80 - Mig-27K
    0.80 - Su-7BM
    0.79 - Mig-21 Bis (T/W = 1.11 in emergency thrust mode)
    0.79 - JA-37 Viggen
    0.79 - Mig-27
    0.79 - Su-17M2
    0.78 - Mig-23BN
    0.78 - Su-7 BKL & BMK
    0.78 - Javelin FAW MK9
    0.77 - Mig-23S

    0.77 - J-7IIIa
    0.76 - Mig-27 D & ML
    0.76 - Mig-23M(E)
    0.76 - F-106A
    0.76 - F-7MG & F-7BG & F-7PG & J-7E & J-7G (WP-7N: T/W = 0.69)
    0.76 - Q-5D
    0.75 - Kfir C.7
    0.75 - Kfir C.2
    0.75 - AJ-37 Viggen
    0.75 - J-7III

    0.74 - Mig-21SM
    0.73 - Su-17
    0.73 - Mig-21MF
    0.73 - Su-17M3
    0.73 - Mig-19S** (MTOW T/W = 0.86)
    0.72 - Yak-27K
    0.72 - Su-17M4
    0.72 - F-104G
    0.71 - Mig-19P** (MTOW T/W = 0.84)
    0.71 - Mig-21PF

    0.71 - Supermarine Scimitar F.1
    0.71 - Cheetah C
    0.70 - Mig-21M
    0.70 - Su-25SM
    0.69 - Jaguar GR1
    0.69 - J-35F Draken
    0.69 - Mig-21F
    0.69 - Mig-21 F-13
    0.69 - J-7II
    0.69 - Su-25 or Su-25T

    0.68 - F-105F/G
    0.68 - Mirage 50
    0.68 - F-7M(or F-7MP or F-7MB) & F-7P
    0.67 - F-1
    0.67 - F4D-1/F-6 Skyray
    0.66 - Mirage F-1
    0.66 - F-8P
    0.64 - F-102A
    0.63 - Sea Vixen FAW.2
    0.63 - Su-25TM or Su-39

    0.62 - Yak-27
    0.61 - Yak38M (TWR during takeoff: 1.20)
    0.61 - Mirage-5A
    0.61 - J-32B Lansen
    0.60 - A-4S1
    0.59 - Mirage-III E & D
    0.58 - Yak-38 (TWR during takeoff: 1.16)
    0.58 - IAI Nesher
    0.58 - F-5E Tiger-II
    0.56 - F-100D

    0.56 - A-6E
    0.55 - A-7E
    0.51 - Super Étendard
    0.50 - F3H-2 Demon
    0.49 - A-10A
    0.49 - F-11A
    0.49 - AMX
    0.47 - Étendard-IV M
    0.46 - F-89D
    0.46 - Super Mystère B.2

    0.46 - Hunter F 6
    0.45 - Marut Mk.1
    0.43 - Yak-25
    0.43 - F-94C/F-97A
    0.43 - F9F-8/F-9J Cougar
    0.41 - A-37B
    0.37 - Mystère IVA
    0.37 - FJ-4 Fury
    0.36 - F7U-3M
    0.34 - F-84F

    0.33 - J-29F Tunnan
    0.33 - P-80C
    0.32 - Supermarine Attacker F.1
    0.31 - F2H-3 Banshee
    0.30 - Ouragan M.D.450B
    0.30 - F3D-2 Sky Night
    0.29 - Venom FB.1
    0.29 - F-84G


    Pure Interceptors
    1.30 - Mig-31M
    1.30 - Mig-31BM
    1.28 - Mig-31B
    1.27 - Mig-31FE
    1.27 - Mig-31E
    1.22 - Mig-31
    1.21 - Mig-25M
    1.00 - Mig-25 P & PD
    0.93 - Mig-25BM
    0.74 - Tu-128


    Empty Weight - Thrust - Fighter

    43,340 - 35,000 X 2 - F-22
    41,887 - 31,967 X 2 - Su-35BM
    37,500 - 29,160 X 2 - F-15K
    36,111 - 27,557 X 2 - Su-27S
    24,250 - 20,000 X 2 - Eurofighter
    37,192 - 27,557 X 2 - Su-27SK & J-11A
    20,948 - 17,000 X 2 - Rafale C
    31,700 - 23,450 X 2 - F-15C
    25,573 - 19,580 X 2 - Mig-29M/M2
    39,903 - 27,557 X 2 - Su-30MKK

    30,600 - 22,000 X 2 - F/A-18E/F
    24,030 - 18,300 X 2 - Mig-29A
    40,565 - 27,557 X 2 - Su-30MKI
    22,478 - 17,000 X 2 - Rafale M
    24,692 - 18,300 X 2 - Mig-29 S & SM
    25,573 - 18,300 X 2 - Mig-29 BM & SMT
    22,000 - 32,500 X 1 - F-16E Block 60
    24,700 - 17,700 X 2 - F-18C
    22,509 - 16,535 X 2 - J-8III(or J-8C)
    29,300 - 39,900 X 1 - F-35A

    28,550 - 19,580 X 2 - Mig-29K
    43,600 - 27,800 X 2 - F-14 B & D
    19,700 - 29,160 X 1 - F-16C Block 52(Block 50: 420lb & 240lbf more)
    21,671 - 15,422 X 2 - J-8IIm
    14,865 - 23,400 X 1 - AV-8B+ Harrier II
    21,000 - 29,600 X 1 - F-2A (F-2B: 21,235)
    31,967 - 20,515 X 2 - JH-7
    15,600 - 23,830 X 1 - F-16A Block 10
    21,671 - 14,815 X 2 - J-8II & J-8IIb & J-8IId
    32,000 - 39,900 X 1 - F-35B

    15,708 - 23,400 X 1 - Harrier GR7A
    49,163 - 28,219 X 2 - Su-34 & Su-32FN & Su-27IB
    14,052 - 21,450 X 1 - Sea Harrier FA2 & FRS51
    16,285 - 23,830 X 1 - F-16A Block 20
    20,394 - 27,557 X 1 - J-10
    22,818 - 14,770 X 2 - Su-15T
    22,553 - 28,660 X 1 - MiG-23 ML, MLA & MLD
    22,520 - 28,660 X 1 - Mig-23P
    34,800 - 39,900 X 1 - F-35C
    15,653 - 22,000 X 1 - Gripen NG

    30,328 - 17,845 X 2 - F-4E
    20,470 - 13,219 X 2 - J-8
    16,000 - 22,045 X 1 - Mirage 2000-5
    23,970 - 14,770 X 2 - Su-15TM
    28,495 - 16,900 X 2 - F-101B
    15,708 - 21,450 X 1 - Harrier GR7
    28,042 - 16,360 X 2 - E E Lightning F6
    18,238 - 23,770 X 1 - F-16C Block 25
    21,980 - 13,448 X 2 - Yak-28 I & P
    47,481 - 25,100 X 2 - F-111F

    46,738 - 24,692 X 2 - Su-24
    22,531 - 13,669 X 2 - Su-15
    16,538 - 21,384 X 1 - Mirage 2000 C & H
    14,100 - 19,100 X 1 - LCA
    40,104 - 20,900 X 2 - F-14A
    24,008 - 27,558 X 1 - Mig-23 MF & MS
    49,163 - 24,801 X 2 - Su-24 M, MK & M2
    14,300 - 09,500 X 2 - F-CK-1
    16,920 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-9
    14,134 - 18,300 X 1 - JF-17

    18,876 - 22,267 X 1 - Su-11
    21,605 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-17M
    31,970 - 16,410 X 2 - Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
    31,065 - 16,005 X 2 - Tornado GR1
    21,936 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-20
    23,027 - 25,353 X 1 - Su-22
    14,595 - 18,097 X 1 - Gripen A
    18,453 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-7B
    13,150 - 17,000 X 1 - F-20
    14,991 - 18,097 X 1 - Gripen C

    26,252 - 27,558 X 1 - Mig-27K
    18,629 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-7BM
    12,037 - 15,654 X 1 - Mig-21 Bis (21,829 - emergency thrust*)
    27,866 - 28,100 X 1 - JA-37 Viggen
    24,317 - 25,336 X 1 - Mig-27
    23,369 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-17M2
    24,692 - 25,336 X 1 - Mig-23BN
    19,599 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-7 BKL & BMK
    23,955 - 12,300 X 2 - Javelin FAW MK9
    21,583 - 22,487 X 1 - Mig-23S

    11,629 - 14,815 X 1 - J-7IIIa
    25,573 - 25,336 X 1 - Mig-27 D & ML
    22,046 - 22,487 X 1 - Mig-23M(E)
    24,420 - 24,500 X 1 - F-106A
    11,667 - 14,650 X 1 - F-7MG & F-7BG & F-7PG & J-7E & J-7G (WP-7N: 13,450lbf)
    14,054 - 08,269 X 2 - Q-5D
    17,130 - 18,750 X 1 - Kfir C.7
    16,061 - 17,901 X 1 - Kfir C.2
    27,006 - 25,970 X 1 - AJ-37 Viggen
    11,861 - 14,650 X 1 - J-7III

    11,574 - 14,308 X 1 - Mig-21SM
    21,164 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-17
    11,795 - 14,308 X 1 - Mig-21MF
    26,014 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-17M3
    12,009 - 07,165 X 2 - Mig-19S** (MTOW: 16,667)
    15,443 - 08,318 X 2 - Yak-27K
    26,810 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-17M4
    14,082 - 15,600 X 1 - F-104G
    12,507 - 07,165 X 2 - Mig-19P** (MTOW: 17,042)
    11,354 - 13,492 X 1 - Mig-21PF

    23,962 - 11,250 X 2 - Supermarine Scimitar F.1
    14,550 - 15,900 X 1 - Cheetah C
    11,795 - 13,613 X 1 - Mig-21M
    20,723 - 09,921 X 2 - Su-25SM
    15,432 - 08,040 X 2 - Jaguar GR1
    17,339 - 17,262 X 1 - J-35F Draken
    10,624 - 12,654 X 1 - Mig-21F
    10,739 - 12,654 X 1 - Mig-21 F-13
    11,850 - 13,219 X 1 - J-7II
    20,944 - 09,921 X 2 - Su-25 or Su-25T

    28,393 - 24,500 X 1 - F-105F/G
    15,763 - 15,870 X 1 - Mirage 50
    11,629 - 13,219 X 1 - F-7M(or F-7MP or F-7MB) & F-7P
    14,017 - 07,305 X 2 - F-1
    16,024 - 16,000 X 1 - F4D-1/F-6 Skyray
    16,314 - 15,873 X 1 - Mirage F-1
    19,700 - 18,000 X 1 - F-8P
    19,350 - 17,200 X 1 - F-102A
    27,954 - 11,240 X 2 - Sea Vixen FAW.2
    23,677 - 09,921 X 2 - Su-25TM or Su-39

    15,395 - 07,165 X 2 - Yak-27
    16,535 - 14,770 X 1 - Yak38M (Lift engines: 07,165 X 2)
    14,550 - 13,669 X 1 - Mirage-5A
    16,535 - 14,680 X 1 - J-32B Lansen
    10,250 - 10,800 X 1 - A-4S1
    15,540 - 13,669 X 1 - Mirage-III E & D
    15,476 - 13,448 X 1 - Yak-38 (Lift engines: 06,724 X 2)
    16,061 - 13,669 X 1 - IAI Nesher
    09,558 - 05,000 X 2 - F-5E Tiger-II
    20,638 - 16,000 X 1 - F-100D

    25,630 - 09,300 X 2 - A-6E
    19,781 - 15,000 X 1 - A-7E
    14,220 - 11,265 X 1 - Super Étendard
    21,287 - 14,400 X 1 - F3H-2 Demon
    29,000 - 09,065 X 2 - A-10A
    12,610 - 04,409 X 2 - Yak-25
    13,810 - 10,500 X 1 - F-11A
    14,837 - 11,030 X 1 - AMX
    13,007 - 09,703 X 1 - Étendard-IV M
    24,200 - 07,400 X 2 - F-89D

    14,087 - 09,920 X 1 - Super Mystère B.2
    14,121 - 10,146 X 1 - Hunter F 6
    13,658 - 04,856 X 2 - Marut Mk.1
    12,708 - 08,750 X 1 - F-94C/F-97A
    11,866 - 08,500 X 1 - F9F-8/F-9J Cougar
    06,211 - 02,850 X 2 - A-37B
    12,941 - 07,734 X 1 - Mystère IVA
    13,210 - 07,700 X 1 - FJ-4 Fury
    18,210 - 04,600 X 2 - F7U-3M
    13,830 - 07,220 X 1 - F-84F

    10,681 - 06,070 X 1 - J-29F Tunnan
    08,420 - 05,400 X 1 - P-80C
    08,426 - 05,100 X 1 - Supermarine Attacker F.1
    13,183 - 03,250 X 2 - F2H-3 Banshee
    09,132 - 04,991 X 1 - Ouragan M.D.450B
    14,989 - 03,400 X 2 - F3D-2 Sky Night
    09,200 - 04,856 X 1 - Venom FB.1
    11,470 - 05,560 X 1 - F-84G



    Pure Interceptors
    48,281 - 36,376 X 2 - Mig-31M
    48,115 - 36,376 X 2 - Mig-31BM
    45,569 - 34,171 X 2 - Mig-31B
    49,383 - 36,376 X 2 - Mig-31FE
    46,297 - 34,171 X 2 - Mig-31E
    48,104 - 34,171 X 2 - Mig-31
    41,667 - 29,762 X 2 - Mig-25M
    41,447 - 24,684 X 2 - Mig-25 P & PD
    45,415 - 24,684 X 2 - Mig-25BM
    54,013 - 22,706 X 2 - Tu-128



    Data from Official company & military sites, Aerospaceweb.org, Airwar.ru, Globalsecurity.org, Fas.org, Warfare.ru, Wikipedia.org & its references, and Other sources.

    Weight in lb, and Thrust in lbf.
    3505 kg = 7727 lb
    * 21,829 extra thrust for 3 min & alt less than 4000m.
    ** Empty weight + 7727 lb exceeds max takeoff weight. Except Mig-19 all other fighters are omitted.

    ----

    Su-9
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Su-11
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Proposed Su-9/11 variant:
    [​IMG]

    Su-15
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Everyone agrees that Su-15 was an excellent aircraft and was pulled out of active service prematurely. When we have countries still designing and manufacturing JunkFighter-17s in this day and age, an upgraded Su-15 with a new radar and avionics would have been an excellent fighter(Same for Mig-23MLD(not the earlier Mig-23 versions)). In fact, there was a proposed Su-15 variant with RD-33 turbo fan Engines which was canceled because of Mig-29 and Su-27 being clearly superior to it and because of a treaty with western nations which eventually led to its premature retirement.
     
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  3. F-14

    F-14 Global Defence Moderator Senior Member

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    the Su-11 also known as the the Fishpot by NATO was the forerunner of the Famous Fitter serise aircraft was in may ways a CAS aircraft but the Su11/9 were was a single-engine, all-weather, missile-armed interceptor aircraft though the the Fitter or its predecesors were not successfull in the USSR every major variant of the Fitter serise was exported and was one of the Most successful Sukhoi desings ever but the MiG or the Mikoyan-Gurevich Design Bureau had as you rightly observed the backing of the Communist party of the USSR but that did not deter The Sukhoi Design Bureau from comming the second best the Su-15 Code named Falgon was neverwas never exported to the Warsaw Pact or any other country. Some Su-15 were reported to be deployed in Egypt in 1972 but were used with Soviet crews. As a sector interceptor was never used in other missions the Su-15 was abruptly retired in 1993 to comply with the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe CFE TREATY
     
  4. fulcrum

    fulcrum Regular Member

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    Yeah, that's the treaty I was talking about.
    Su-15 had good maneuverability. They would have been an excellent platform. I guess Boris Yeltsin didn't care about those.

    Yeah, the Su-7 was a ground attack aircraft. At that time CAS was performed by ground attack aircraft.

    Su-9, Su-11, Su-15 are the fighter-interceptors.
    Su-7, Su-17, Su-20, Su-22, Su-24 & Su-32FN/Su-34 are bombers with very limited Air-Air capabilities.
    Su-25, Su-39 are CAS aircraft.
    Su-27, Su-30, Su-33, Su-35 are interceptor-fighter-bombers.
    That covers all the sukhois jets ever to enter production.

    Mig-15, Mig-17, Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-29, Mig-35 are interceptor-fighter-bombers.
    Mig-27 is a bomber with limited Air-Air capabilities.
    Mig-25, Mig-31 are pure interceptors.
     

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