Su 35 S - Indian Air force's Savior?

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Ind4Ever, Jun 16, 2015.

  1. Ind4Ever

    Ind4Ever Regular Member

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    Su 35 S - Indian Air force's Savior ?

    Russia and India have signed an agreement to jointly develop a fifth-generation upgrade of the Su-35 Super Flanker multirole fighter, according to a report published March 8 on Virginia-based military affairs website Defence News. The news sent shock and AWE across the borders. An Indian Air Force official said Russia has pitched the Su-35S several times over the last six months, stating that it can replace the Indian Air Force's MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters, set to be retired from service in seven to eight years. Russia and India have already worked together on the development of a fifth-generation stealth fighter Known as FGFA An Indian Version of PAKFA. Well almost all news about Stealth Version of Su35S was always been as unconfirmed since there is no credible higher level official source from both the countries.

    "How Su35S can change IAF's capabilities to fight two front war? This we need to go back in times The times of Mother of all deals :p . Lots of thrilling episodes , rumors every now then which gripped online defense forums , politics , scandal twits and hell lot of headache especially for me -_-

    Finally a leader with spine arrived as Prime Minister of India and put an end to this never ending saga of Loop. Seen as unbelievable decision to buy 36 rafale out of 124 MMRCA agreement during PM Modi's visit to France. But the question arise and unanswered . Is that enough ? with 40 years old vintage migs are about to retire within a decade ? So what is the way forward ?

    Most recently Euro fighter which never wasted any time to LOCK and Fire at Rafale. Eurofighter estimates the Rafale's current flyaway price to be at least $150 million, a figure supported by public information on Armee de l'Aire (as the French air force is called) purchases. The Typhoon, like the Rafale, had satisfied the IAF in performance trials, losing out to the Dassault fighter by virtue of being more expensive. With a new format of buying only flyaway fighters, Eurofighter could convincingly argue it would be cheaper, since 571 Typhoons are on order compared to barely 225 Rafales. Anonymous government officials are creating a high benchmark, putting out the word that Dassault had quoted $300 million per Rafale in the MMRCA tender. The Economic Times quoted government sources as saying Dassault would provide a 25 per cent discount, offering 36 Rafales for $200 million each, in a contract for about $8 billion. Dassault had quoted $80 million in the MMRCA tender for each of the 18 Rafales it was to supply in flyaway condition. There is no way Dassault can supply the Rafale for less than $80 million today," points out Abhijit Iyer-Mitra, an aerospace expert at the Observer Research Foundation

    This price would make the Rafale one-and-a-half times costlier than the fifth-generation Lockheed Martin F-35; four times costlier than the Sukhoi-30MKI; and nine times more expensive than the Tejas LCA. So it's not whether we need RAFALE or not the point is whether we need to have an Air force which can not only repel but can punish both China and Pakistan at will .Now this is where alleged "SU35-S" comes in as a Saviour and face saver for our national security .Don't mistake me when I say this .Of course Su35(whatever the variant) is not the replacement of single engine migs !

    Need for Su35-S Arrives :

    Indian air force estimates at least 45 squadrons are needed to repel a joint attack from Pakistan and China, compared with a current active strength of 25, which includes 14 squadrons whose MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets are due to be taken out of service starting this year. NOTE : This 42 squadron requirement is for defending our airspace and our people . Once you decided for offensive defense how can this be enough ? Chinese air force out match IAF in many aspects ! Even today . Chinese are not aiming to maintain superiority over India but the World overall. That's massive build-up and serious firepower we are facing. One small misunderstanding will start war between India and China whether may it be through Pakistan or escalation in South China Sea. Prevention is better than cure. To prevent any war we need to have strong capabilities more than our enemy , Only way to keep enemy at bay and well informed about our capabilities.

    On one thing we all will agree. That's Su35 S is Heavy class fighter so it can't be a replacement for 15 squadrons of soviet era Migs. But so does Rafale we ever thought about it ? . We are so short sighted and very obsessed with costly platforms . Look at china will anyone dare to invade china ?And all Chinese are having is just rusted but tested weapon platforms and they improvised upon them . That's the way to go for India too.

    Buying 150 million $ jet like rafale will put a huge black hole in our defence budgets. Let's be clear realistic we are not economic super power yet ! We don't have 10 Trillion dollar economy but 1.3 billion stomach to feed at least thrice a day. Thanks to Congress which destroyed our defense prepadness for a decade, So all the forces need to be upgraded with Howitzers to bullet jackets to submarines . But on threat perception India stands on top with 'Complete Psychopath Pakistan' and Very rich 'Insecure' China moving coins to checkmate India !

    Mig 21/27 must be replaced with Tejas alone. There should be no turning back. And we are also aware of delays involved with the program .And so be it. Let the process go on. Let's turn our attention towards matching our capabilities to PLAAF. Su35S can act as a stop gap fighter between Super Sukoi upgrade and FGFA(Which has more bad news than good) . Upgraded version of Su35S to have full stealth configurations including internal weapon bay .Giving India a massive firepower for long rage missions ranging from strategic bombing raids deep inside China to air superiority over Tibetan's. With 60-80 million dollar a unit Su35S brings much needed boost to our air force. 90 Su35S (10 trainer +4 Squadrons) which could cost around 7-7.5 USD(@80 mill $) which is little over than 36 Rafale deal but with complete face lift for IAF !!! If enough investment is made, as with sufficient funds the avionics of the Su-35S could surpass those of the T-50. Through the purchase of fifth-generation directional flux nozzles with a large thrust to weight ratio, the Su-35S could reach a level of subsonic maneuverability equal to that of the T-50.

    So what do you think friends ?

    Mig 21/27 - Replaced with Tejas MK1/2

    Su 35S - to compensate time delay in tejas,FGFA and AMCA and heavily priced Rafale ?
     
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  3. avknight1408

    avknight1408 Regular Member

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    What is the difference between MKI & Su35? Which is better?
     
  4. Ind4Ever

    Ind4Ever Regular Member

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    We are upgrading MKI into su35 standards but with AESA radar as major upgrade from su35 . Su35 S variant is to have full stealth configuration + many technologies from Pak Fa... Some rumours also going around for a while now that 2 Su35/S already in India over 2 years (Russian Source and some Chinese source) But Chinese sources says it won't full stealth aircraft like f22 or f35
     
  5. Ind4Ever

    Ind4Ever Regular Member

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    Literally FGFA and AMCA are 5-8 years away from operational variant. MK1- plus variants only be ready by 2017 and MK2 will be ready by 2021/22 ... do we are left with MK1 , MkI and Rafale. MK1 found to be under performing for IAF , MKI are already in numbers .overall 272 . It will take more than a decade to upgrade all MKI into super sukoi standards. Rafale is too costly for us at any measures . We already bought 36 + 18 as available follow on . So both Rafale , Mirage 2000I and jaguar can be used as MMRCA and for ground attack .All we need is Su35 to confront Chinese and Tejas for Pakistan airforce J17 , for point defence role and for patrol duties
     
    tejas warrior likes this.
  6. Hari Sud

    Hari Sud Senior Member Senior Member

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    At $150 million a piece, just walk out of the deal to buy 36 Raffle in flyaway condition. If you need an aircraft to punish the aggressor whether China or Pakistan, buy a $80 million upgraded F18 from US. Reject that notion that F18 is a twenty year old technology. Buy the upgraded version and send Pakistan and China into tizzy. It will punish them so bad that their airforce would go into retreat as soon as it arrives on the scene.
     
  7. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Doctrine Changed from Single role to Omni Role..

    Su 30 MKI ---> Super Sukhoi ------> T 50------> FGFA

    MiG 21---> LCA Tejas -----> Tejas MK 2 -----> more Tejas Versions
     
  8. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    roumers ..or you putting your words ...!! Who told you such BS... How many Su 35 does Russia Have ..:bplease:
     
  9. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    yeah mean time we stick those Su 30 MKI as Hanger Queens, I sure we get first squad of T 50 before 2020, Tejas won't go for front line duties even Baki send thier Trainers,

    Ever checked the Fighter deployment in Western and Eastern Airbases,
     
  10. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Peoples have to realize why the Indians selected the Rafale, it's comes from all sides, from size to weapon integration, Should we go for Bunch of American AIM 9X and AMRAAM plus some American JDAM's for Ground Strike ..

    Rafale is different, something like twin engine Mirage..!!
     
  11. Ind4Ever

    Ind4Ever Regular Member

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    So you basically telling Su35 and Su35 upgraded stealth variant is inferior to rafale ?

    Both don't even compared in the same class
     
  12. Ind4Ever

    Ind4Ever Regular Member

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    I don't have much time to make up some stories ...

    Hear it from horses mouth !!! And ...HEY!!! Surprise ... It was Russian who predicted this MMRCA will fall when there was strong sentiments to clinch the deal !!! What What a coincidence or something cooking behind the door ?

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...2015/03/08/russia-india-fighter-jet/24121253/
    By Awad MustafaMar 8, 2015

    [​IMG]

    Johannes Eisele/Getty

    A Sukhoi Su-35 fighter performs in China last year. India and Russia have reportedly signed a joint development deal for a fifth generation version of the plane, the Su-35S.

    ABU DHABI — Moscow and New Delhi have agreed to perform design work in India on what Russia claims would be a "fifth generation" version of the Su-35, an agreement that may lead to an Indian variant of the fighter jet, the Russian Military Complex chief said.


    The announcement makes India the first country to sign a contract, however preliminary, for the S version of the Su-35.

    "We have been negotiating and have signed the intention protocol for the Su-35," Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov said during the IDEX show in Abu Dhabi last month. "Now we are working on designing ideas for this contract and on creating a manufacturing platform for the aircraft of the fifth generation."

    Rostec is Russia's state-run corporation that oversees export of high-tech products.

    Chemezov said the jet would be developed to meet the Indian Air Force's requirements. He did not say how many of the jets India might plan to buy.

    Russia claims the Su-35S would be a fifth generation fighter, as opposed to the legacy fourth generation Su-35. That implies stealth, but it's unclear whether the jet would be on par with an F-35 joint strike fighter.

    In India, however, no source in the Defence Ministry could confirm that any deal had been signed with Russia on the Su-35S. An Air Force official did say that the Russians have made one or two Su-35S presentations in the past six months on how it can help replace India's MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter aircraft, which are due for retirement in seven or eight years.

    Russian industry sources said the fighter will be priced at $85 million. That could make it competitive with Dassault Aviation's Rafale, and could have implications for India's proposed purchase of 126 Rafales. New Delhi selected the Rafale as the preferred bidder in a protracted competition in 2012, but has yet to make a final decision on the purchase.

    Indian and French defense ministers discussed the Rafale deal during Jean-Yves Le Drian's recent visit to India, an Indian MoD source said. But Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar did not provide a time commitment to Le Drian on when the deal will be signed.

    Parrikar told Le Drian that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has been asked to complete cost estimates for the Rafales it will build under license.

    The French defense minister's spokesman was not available for comment.

    A Dassault Aviation spokesman, asked about the Indian agreement for design work on the Su-35S, said the Indian Air Force chief has said a Sukhoi cannot replace a Rafale.

    In India, the Economic Times, reported on Feb. 19 that Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha ruled out a purchase of additional Su-30s as the Russian fighter and the Rafale complemented each other rather than the former replacing the latter.

    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is due to visit Paris in April, which could be an opportunity for some clarification on the potential Rafale deal, Agence-France Presse has reported.

    Russian aircraft makers have been eagerly proclaiming their willingness to step in if India ultimately rejects the French jet. Many believe Russia wants to undercut France as punishment for Paris refusing to deliver two Mistral helicopters carriers to Russia amid deepening tensions with Ukraine.

    "If [India] needs additional Su-30MKI fighters, then we are ready to work out such an agreement," Sergei Goreslavsky, deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, told the RIA Novosti news agency on Feb. 16. India operates a large fleet of Sukhoi Su-30 fighters, some of which have been locally produced by HAL.

    And Russia's RSK MiG says it would offer an upgraded version of its developmental MiG-35 if India reopens the tender.

    "We have every chance to compete [for the contract]," MiG chief Sergei Korotkov said at Aero India on Feb. 18, according to the RIA Novosti new agency. "We have not lost hope that a future tender or competition will be announced."

    India remains dependent on Russia to supply weaponry and the two countries have been successful in conducting joint development programs involving advanced technologies, including the co-production of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile.

    "Efforts will be made to modernize the Indian defense forces with emphasis on Make-in-India defense programs," an Indian MoD official said. "India remains committed to buy advanced technologies."

    India's dependence on Russia for the bulk of its weapons systems, said defense analyst Nitin Mehta.

    "India wants to buy advanced systems like the Rafale, even at a higher cost," he said. "[But] dependence on Russians will remain ... and it would be difficult to find the resources to replace these with advanced systems immediately."

    Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said the Su-35S would enter Russian service this year as part of the expansion of the Air Force and Naval Aviation branch.

    "Currently, we're testing a new Su-35S multifunctional fighter jet. This year, the new aircraft should enter service. This is the main task for this year," Shoigu said in February.

    China is also considering a purchase of Su-35s. A February report by Zvezda, a television network run by the Russian military, said that long-running talks might conclude with a deal to buy 24 fighters on May 19.

    Chemezov said that the contract, if signed, would provide China with the fourth-generation Su-35, not India's fifth-generation S model.

    "This aircraft is called Su-35-4 plus PAK-FA generation and we are negotiating with China and we are in progress and I hope it will be over soon. I wouldn't like to discuss contracts that have still not been signed," he said. "The important point is that this is a very unique aircraft that has not been delivered to any country."

    Another potential customer for the Su-35 is Egypt. Last fall, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi signed an arms deal reportedly worth $3.5 billion. Egyptian media reported that the package included Su-35s.

    But Chemezov said no firm purchase deal had been settled.

    "We have not signed anything with Egypt; we signed an intention protocol and we are negotiating it. I hope soon we will sign a contract," he said.

    Experts have suggested that Egypt, long a customer of US arms makers, would have trouble integrating Russian hardware.

    "This would require a significant investment and both sides have been in negotiations for years without results," said Ruslan Aliev, of Moscow's Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.

    But Chemezov said the two countries have already agreed on training protocols in case the purchase goes through.

    "As a matter of fact, the terms and conditions of the contract that have been signed maintain not only the delivery and other terms but also the training," he said. "First the pilot will be trained in Russia and later in Egypt, as an example when we supplied the helicopters to the Pentagon, which were then delivered to Afghanistan the pilots took their training to Russia."

    Pierre Tran in Paris and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report.
     
  13. Ind4Ever

    Ind4Ever Regular Member

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    Am not saying Rafale is useless but we can't afford . Just simple as that .With that money India can go for more FGFA or PakFa or F35 or upgraded version of Su35 like Su30 MKI . Who with sane mind will buy 4++ gen fighter at 200 million or 150 million when full stealth 5 gen is available ? We are not Egypt to buy fighters on credit with ballooned interest rates .
     
  14. Ind4Ever

    Ind4Ever Regular Member

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    For your kind information we lack bullet proof jackets to save our soldiers
     
  15. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Do notice that both Korean and Japanese rejected the offer of F18 latest version--they are counting F35 to protect their sky.
     
  16. Ind4Ever

    Ind4Ever Regular Member

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    The way few people want to chear lead Rafale is like except France no other country in the world has capable A2G multi role fighters .

    And f18 days are over . It's airframe has limitations for 90s .Those days are gone and done . 5th airframe is the way we need to go . We don't need su35 but with new engine released for su35 modified 5th generation Su35S with unique EW suit will propel IAF's ground attack capabilities to a new level .
     
  17. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Quote me .. where did I said like that ..!!
     
  18. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    , what the requirement of IAF, are they stated they need a Low cost 4+ generation fighter or a low cost 5th gen fighter,

    repeating the same #9

    Peoples have to realize why the Indians selected the Rafale, it's comes from all sides, from size to weapon integration,
     
  19. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    oh ..that's shocking.. I didn't knew that , we should buy BFJ before buying those Helicopters and Artillery's
     
  20. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    looks they need a Fifth gen fighter, like India too need a Fifth Gen, see India has T 50 and FGFA in pipeline
     
  21. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Oh please .. not like that. a simple Helicopter too can do a A2G attack role

    F 18 US Navy's primary Multi role Aircraft till 2030 or so,
     

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