Su-30MkI V/S JF-17 & J-10

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by .v0id, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. .v0id

    .v0id FOUNDER Administrator

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    Discussion on Su-30MkI V/S JF-17 & J-10.

    Su-30MkI

    Crew: Two in tandem seating on KD-36DM ejection seats. Rear seat raised for better visibility.

    Engine: Su-30K/MK-1; Two AL-31F turbofans, each rated at 12,500 kgf (27,550 lbs) of full afterburning thrust.
    ..........Su-30MKI; Two AL-31FP turbofans, each rated at 12,500 kgf (27,550 lbs) of full afterburning thrust.

    Engine Thrust-To-Weight Ratio: 8.7:1

    Maximum Speed: At sea level - 1350 km/h.
    .......................Above 11,000 meters - Mach 2+

    Service Ceiling: 17,500 meters.

    Climb Rate: 230 m/s; 45,300 ft/min.

    Maximum Range: The Su-30MKI with a single in-flight re-fuelling can go a distance of 8000 km; (~5000 miles). The maximum flight duration can be 10 hours --> in terms of the crew capabilities. The Su-30K/MK-1 with a normal fuel load of 5270 kg (~11,620 lbs.) can go a distance of 3000 km (~1900 miles) and with an in-flight re-fuelling the aircraft go a distance of 5200 km (3231 miles).

    G Limit: +9.

    Armament: The aircraft is fitted with a 30mm GSh-301 single-barrel gun which has a firing rate of 1500 - 1800 rds/min or 25 - 30 rds/sec. The gun has a maximum effective range of 1200 - 1800 meters (3937 - 5906 feet) against air targets and 200 - 800 meters (656 - 2625 feet) against ground targets. Has 170 rounds capacity with 150 rounds loaded. Can carry a variety of ordnance on 12 hard points, which can be increased to 14 by using multi-payload racks. For air-superiority missions, the Su-30MKI can carry air-to-air missiles, like the close-combat R-60MK and R-73RDM2 (up to six), the medium-range R-27RE1/TE1 (up to six/two) and the long-range R-77RVV-AE (up to six).

    For surface-strike missions, the Su-30MKI can be armed with air-to-surface missiles like the Kh-25MP, Kh-29L/T (up to six), Kh-31A/P (up to six) and Kh-59/59M (up to two), as well as KAB-500KR/KAB-500OD (up to six) and KAB-1500KR/KAB-1500L (up to three) high-precision bombs which can be fitted with either laser or television guidance systems. Over 70 versions of guided and unguided weapon stores may be employed, which allows the aircraft to fly the most diverse tactical missions. The Su-30 can also carry a tactical nuclear payload.

    Maximum External Stores Load: 8000 kg; 17,600 lbs. Max Take Off Wt: 34,500 kg. (38500 kg unconfirmed)

    Self Defence: An integrated ECM system turns on the warning units that provide signals about incoming enemy missiles, a new generation radio recon set, active jamming facilities and radar & heat decoys. It also includes an electronic intelligence unit, a chaff and flare dispenser and a RWR system. Reportedly, the RWR system is an indigenous product developed by DRDO. The system is a modified version of the new RWR to be fitted on the upgraded MiG-21bis, known as the MiG-21UPG, and goes by the name Tarang.

    Design Features: The first batch of eight Su-30MK-1s (SB 001 - SB 008), delivered to the IAF, have evolved from the Su-27K long range interceptor, a two-seat fighter derivative of the Su-27PU, which in itself is a two-seat fighter derivative of the Su-27UB trainer. These aircraft have the standard Su-27 radar, an in-flight refuelling capability, limited air-to-ground capability and a data-link system. The second batch, originally built to fulfill a cancelled Indonesian order, of ten Su-30Ks (SB 009 - SB 018) have limited PGM (Precision Guided Munitions) capability. The specifications below relate to the final Su-30MKI variant, unless specified otherwise.

    Avionics: The Su-30MKI features an all-weather, digital multi-mode, dual frequency, forward facing NIIP N-011M radar which has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 targets and engage the 8 most threatening simultaneously. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. The radar is combined with a helmet mounted sight system, which allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90º field of view, lock on to a target and launch the TVC-capable R-73RDM2 missile. The radar's forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. The N-011M ensures a 20 metre resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km.

    In March 1998, the IAF signed a contract with the French electronics manufacturer, Sextant Avionique, to add six liquid colour displays, five MFD 55s and one MFD 66, for both the pilot and his WSO (Weapons System Officer), the Totem inertial guidance system with the GPS technology and the VEH 3000 holographic HUD. Officials from Sexatant have acknowledged that they have already validated the GPS system on Sukhoi aircraft. The six LCDs have a wide-screen and are shielded to make it readable even in bright sunlight. All the flight information is displayed on these four LCD displays which include one for piloting and navigation, a tactical situation indicator, and two for display systems information including operating modes and overall operation status. The aircraft is fitted with a satellite navigation system, which permits it to make flights in all weathers; day and night. The navigation complex comprises an inertial directional system and short- and long-range radio navigation systems. It also has a laser attitude and a heading reference system. An automatic flight control system makes all phases of its flight automatic, including the combat employment of its weapons.
     
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  3. .v0id

    .v0id FOUNDER Administrator

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    JF-17

    The PAC JF-17 Thunder (Urdu: تھنڈر), also known in China as the Chengdu FC-1 Fierce Dragon (Chinese: 枭龙; pinyin: Xiāo Lóng),[1] is a light-weight multi-role combat aircraft jointly developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation of China and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex of Pakistan. The "JF" and "FC" designations stand for "Joint Fighter" and "Fighter China" respectively.

    * Crew: 1 (2 for proposed twin-seater)
    * Length: 14.0 m [44] (45.9 ft)
    * Wingspan: 9.45 m [44] (31 ft)
    * Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
    * Wing area: 24.4 m² [44] (263 ft²)
    * Empty weight: 6,411 kg [45] (14,134 lb)
    * Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles [46] [47] (20,062 lb)
    * Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [46] (28,000 lb)
    * Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan [48]
    o Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [49] [50] (11,106 lbf)
    o Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN [51] [52] (18,973 lbf)
    * G-limit: +8.5 g [16]
    * Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb) [53]

    Performance

    * Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [54] [55]
    * Combat radius: 1,352 km [56] (840 mi)
    * Ferry range: 3,000 km [57] [58] (2,175 mi)
    * Service ceiling: 16,700 m [59] (54,790 ft)
    * Thrust/weight: 0.99 [60] [61]

    Armament

    * Guns: 1× 23mm internal GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30mm GSh-30-2 twin-barrel cannon)
    * Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance,
    * Rockets: 57mm/90mm unguided rocket pods [64]
    * Missiles:
    o Air-to-air missiles: PL-5E, PL-9C, PL-12 / SD-10
    o Air-to-surface missiles: anti-radiation missiles; anti-ship missiles (AM-39 Exocet); cruise missiles (Ra'ad ALCM); etc. [63]
    * Bombs:
    o Gravity/Unguided bombs: general purpose (Mk-82, Mk-84); anti-runway (Matra Durandal); etc. [62]
    o Precision guided munitions: laser-guided (GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2); satellite-guided; etc. [62]
    o Cluster bombs: anti-armour (CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye); etc. [62]

    KLJ-7 radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets. The detection range for targets with a radar-cross section of up to 3 m2 is stated to be 120 km, or 50 km in look-down mode, while surface sea targets can be detected at up to 135 km. Target data is displayed on the multi-function display screens in the cockpit.
     
  4. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Webmaster...I smell a flame thread here...better chart down a separate set of rules for this VS threads.
     
  5. .v0id

    .v0id FOUNDER Administrator

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    J-10


    * Crew: 1 (basic), 2 (trainer variant)
    * Length: 15.5 m (50 ft 10 in)
    * Wingspan: 9.7 m (31 ft 10 in)
    * Height: 4.78 m (15.7 ft)
    * Wing area: 39 m² (419.8 ft²)
    * Empty weight: 8,000–9,730 kg (17,637–21,451 lb)
    * Loaded weight: 18,500 kg (40,785 lb )
    * Useful load: 5,500 kg (9,920 lb)
    * Max takeoff weight: 19,277 kg (42,500 lb)
    * Powerplant: 1× Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN or Woshan WS-10A "Taihang" turbofan
    o Dry thrust: 79.43 kN / 89.17 kN (17,860 lbf / 20,050 lbf)
    o Thrust with afterburner: 122.5 kN / 129.4 kN (27,557 lbf / 29,101 lbf)

    Performance

    * Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude, Mach 1.2 at sea level
    * g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²)
    * Combat radius:
    o On hi-lo-hi mission: 2,540 km (1,370 nautical miles) with 4,000lb/1,814kg bombload and two air-to-air missiles
    o On lo-lo-lo mission: 1,310 km (710 nautical miles with 4,000lb/1,814kg bombload and two air-to-air missiles
    * Maximum range (without refueling): 3,400 km (2,113 mi) ()
    * Service ceiling: 20,000 m (65,600 ft[5])
    * Wing loading: 335 kg/m² (64 lb/ft²)
    * Minimum thrust/weight: 0.98


    Armament

    * Guns: 1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon
    * Hardpoints: 11 in total (6× under-wing, 5× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) external fuel and ordnance,
    * Rockets: 90mm unguided rocket pods
    * Missiles:
    o Air-to-air missiles: PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12
    o Air-to-surface missiles: PJ-9, YJ-9K
    * Bombs: laser-guided bombs (LT-2), glide bombs (LS-6) and unguided bombs

    * Italian FIAR Grifo 2000/16: An Italian radar offered to Pakistan should Pakistan decide to order the J-10. This radar can simultaneously engage 8 targets, and like the JL-10A, it can simultaneously engage 2 targets out of the total targets tracked with semi-active radar homing air-to-air missiles. The radar is fully-compatible and interchangeable with AN/APG-66 at LRU level. The radar has a slotted planar array with a diameter up to 800 mm, and the range of the radar is at least 100+ km. The ISO-9002 certified avionics, electronics and radar production facility of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex at Kamra already has considerable experience in licensed assembly/production of other Italian FIAR radars, namely, the Grifo-7, Grifo-Mk-II, and Grifo-MG fire control radars for Pakistani F-7MP/P/PGs, and the Grifo-2000/16 would have great advantage over its competitors when license assembly/production is included.
     
  6. .v0id

    .v0id FOUNDER Administrator

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    Its alright Satish, we can compare crafts with specifications.

    Rule #2.

    Do not start "this vs that" topic threads. We encourage detailed comparison of weapon systems which looks at capabilities of weapon systems being compared but not in form of "weapon A vs. weapon B." Please be detailed and give reasons why such and such weapon system would be better for various conflict scenarios.
     
  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Can't compare the three. Chalk and cheese. Comparing the computer (MKI) with the abacus (j series)
     
  8. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Su 30 MKI:

    It is the Principle Air dominance fighter of the IAF. The Su 30 is being used as a power projection tool of the IAF. It is the most advanced aircraft of the IAF incentory. The SU 30 has an Indian datalink. It is the High End fighter of the IAF.

    J 10

    This is the most advanced fighter built by China. It's a multi role combat aircraft of the Chinese air force and is supposed to be the MiG29/F16 of the PLAAF. It has a good radar and is meant for mass production and export. The airframe is mainly of inputs from the Lavi and the F 16. The WS 10A engine is as of yet not fully operational as the burn time is not achieved properly. The Grifo 7 radar might be the principle radar that is supposed to be used By PAF and the KLJ-7 Is supposed to be used by PLAAF. The TVC engines are expected to come with the J10.

    JF 17

    This is a fighter which is jointly developed by the PLAAF for the PAF. It is more of an economic fighter and is supposed mainly for export. This in future will form the backbone of the PAF. The JF is a light weight cheap fighter for the export market. The JF in its current form carries the KLJ-7 radar. There are plans for the upgradation of JF with european avionics. The JF uses a single RD-93 engine. This cannot provide it with thrust that it requires in combat. The PAF is also interested in the M88 engine from France but the French rates are higher hence there are problems meeting the TWR required by the PAF. But the JF also brings along with it a industrial base for Pakistan as the Fighters will be built in Pakistan.


    These are like comparing apples to oranges. The different aircrafts are for different reasons. Their role is different and it is upto the respective airforces to determine its function.
     
  9. .v0id

    .v0id FOUNDER Administrator

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    You are totaly wrong here, Dont ever underestimate anything. SD-10 & PL-12 missiles can threat any aircraft in the world. But again Radar,ECM pods also play a major role.


    The fact is that both Air Force wil have AWACS shadow, but the problem for jf-17 & j-10 is that AWACS cant drive missile to the target ( in that case Radar came in Power ).

    Major advantage of Su-30 over JF-17/J-10 is its Radar.
     
  10. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    The MKI is an air dominance fighter more like the F22 the US is using as though both of those are not comparable. The others are numbers fighters like the Tejas. A more correct comparison would be between the Tejas and JF 17
     
  11. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Yusuf...These are the weapons that will go head on in the next decade. So a comparison between them is viable.
     
  12. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    The best way to compare is...Su 30MKI vs SU30MKK/F15C/I, F16Blk50 vs J10A/MRCA winner, JF17vs LCA/F16a/b
     
  13. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    That would be right although it would be the F 15 strike eagle in it's latest avatar. The difference tough would be the Aesa
     
  14. .v0id

    .v0id FOUNDER Administrator

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    Guys Stop Posting One liners !!
     
  15. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Mate we are just trying to set up a discussion as to which fighters are comparable
     
  16. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Let me start a scenario to compare the Fighters.

    The Su30 MKI is pressed for surgical strikes on lahore Millitant training camps. The Halwara airbase is given a task to take out the militant training camp. The Sukhois are flying both strike and CAP missions

    3 Su 30s loaded with 4 KH 31 and 2 R73 archer and 2 RVV-AE (Arrow head formation)
    4 Su 30s Loaded with air to air payload flying 3000ft above the Strike package (finger four formation)

    10 JF 17s are scrambled from Lahore to intercept them. These are loaded with air defence package. 2xPL 12( SD-10) and 4x PL 11.

    Use your imagination people. It is only 2011.
     
  17. Soham

    Soham DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    ^^^
    Oh my god ! You can never predict scenarios Satish !
    If the MKI is compared, it needs to be compared to the J-11 not J-10.
    The comparison doesn't make sense !
     
  18. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    well satish due to the much powerful radar of the MKI they will detect and destroy the JF_-17s first period.

    due to lack of missile datalinking with awacs jf-17s would be able to see us but wont be able to shoot.
    due to lack of advanced radars and SAM's the israeli jammers in the MKI will block their ground radars....
     
  19. Shiny Capstar

    Shiny Capstar Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    What is the weather like? What support is available to each side (ground based radar, AEW&C, SAMs etc)? What avionics suite are the JF-17's carrying? What altitude are the different flights at? What arrangement (split into how many flights etc) and formation are the JF-17's in? Where would the intercept take place and from what angle (including the approach of the JF-17's)?

    Paint a full picture of the conditions of the fight before you ask the question.
     
  20. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    These comparisons are tough for a lot of reasons mainly do to the unknown of the fighters themselves.
    The JF-17 not even finished no one knows what production radar and missiles will end up on this mid/lighish size fighter.
    The same hold true on the J-10 it could be a massed produced fighter and more useful if flown in high numbers. On the other hand staying with the Russian engine and lets say the Chinese made missiles are a little better then most think it changes things. If the radar improvements made once both platforms come within range of each other missiles the battle changes, its not so one sided anymore.

    I agree overall that the Chinese missiles/radar isn't as good right now an that the MKI have the advantaged. The Israeli jammer's are huge but the odds favor the Chinese to start producing better equipment.

    Myself I can't rate either the JF-17 or the J-10 yet there just isn't enough known for me to do so. I won't just follow the others and say the J-10 is about as good a F-16C Block-40 until more is publicly release and known about the platform. Most Flankers would wide aren't up to Block-40+ Viper standards yet in certain areas. On paper the J-10 looks better then anything China has ever made but such little is really known. I'm just saying the odds of the Chinese always being 10 or 20 years behind just can't last forever there spending too much on R&D.
     
  21. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    you cannot compare a scenerio without the technical details that shiny has pointed out and it holds true also rock has brought out the fact very clearly that not much is known about the chinese fighters, we havent had a technical accessment of these chinese fighters words of publicity hold no value because its always the technical aspects that count in case of an conflict scenerio.


    the best we can do here is compare the systems that each of the aircrafts uses its strengths and its weakness, for eg we can compare the a2a missiles, or the radars or the jammers, without engaging who will win we can just make an accessment depending on the data that we have from reliable sources.
     

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