Su-30 MKI

[ZOOM]

Now question mark arises over what was a prime reason behind failure in ejection of dead pilot. According to various sources, MKI was flying low and hence one theory can be built over here, It must have something to do with spatial disorientation. If it was a human error, then Pilots must have ignored saftey issue. Few months ago, an F-15 was crashed in Neveda desert and in that crash as well, one pilot was dead and other one manage to survive that incident. Final Report concluded that they were flying low and had a One fuel tank was still completely filled and hence one wing of the F-15 was going through the excessive weight. Suddenly one pilot goes on to wild spin and F-15 lost its control, according flight instruction pilots mandated to kept the aircraft stable, but they disregard the same. Eventually, F-15 goes on to wild spin towards the surface and subsequently created spatial disorientation for Pilots as they couldn't figure out wheather to bailed or not.

Since, even if technical snag may created in MKI then only it won't let fighter jet to eventually goes in wild wing creating further room for spatial disorientiation. Even they were flying on no mens land, so atleast they didn't require to worry about both Human and property damage.

At the same time, I am also highly suspectiable about investigation, since nearby villeagers were first to rush towards spot and douse fire with buckets of water, which may have done enough to washed out potential hints which may have uncovered actual error.

 

[Auberon]

A day after Sukhoi crash, fleet grounded, checks underway

May 1st, 2009 - 8:40 pm ICT by IANS -

New Delhi, May 1 (IANS) A day after a frontline Sukhoi Su-30 combat jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed in the first such accident since the plane was inducted 12 years ago, the entire fleet was temporarily grounded Friday for a thorough inspection of the aircraft’s airframe and systems.
“The aircraft did not take to the skies today (Friday) and thorough checks are being conducted,” an IAF officer said, requesting anonymity.

“A court of enquiry is underway and nothing can be said at this stage about the cause of the crash,” he added.

However, the crash has raised the alarming possibility of “structural faults” in the aircraft, another officer said, without elaborating.

In a blot on its otherwise unblemished record, a Russian origin Su-30MKI crashed in Jaisalmer Thursday, killing the co-pilot. The pilot, Wing Commander S.V. Munje, and the co-pilot, Wing Commander P.S. Narah, managed to bail out in time but the latter was killed after he was apparently hit by the falling debris of the aircraft.

Ironically, Narah belonged to the IAF’s Directorate General of Inspections and Safety and was putting the aircraft through its annual safety checks.

Munje is currently under “medical supervision”.

The aircraft had taken off from the Lohegaon air base in Pune on a routine sortie and crashed at 10.30 a.m. while returning to its base.

There were no reports of damage to property on the ground.

The IAF operates three squadrons (approximately 55 aircraft) of the jet, some of which were bought in a fly-away condition from its Russian manufacturer while the others were manufactured under license by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

It was not immediately clear which category the crashed jet belonged to.

The Su-30 has won universal acclaim from the air forces of the US, Britain and France whenever it has been fielded against them in war games. Eight Su-30s had participated in the prestigious Red Flag exercise with the US Air Force at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, last year and had more than held their own against their counterparts’ F/A-18 and F-16 combat jets.
A day after Sukhoi crash, fleet grounded, checks underway

 

[VayuSena1]

A day after Sukhoi crash, fleet grounded, checks underway

May 1st, 2009 - 8:40 pm ICT by IANS -

New Delhi, May 1 (IANS) A day after a frontline Sukhoi Su-30 combat jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed in the first such accident since the plane was inducted 12 years ago, the entire fleet was temporarily grounded Friday for a thorough inspection of the aircraft’s airframe and systems.
“The aircraft did not take to the skies today (Friday) and thorough checks are being conducted,” an IAF officer said, requesting anonymity.

“A court of enquiry is underway and nothing can be said at this stage about the cause of the crash,” he added.

However, the crash has raised the alarming possibility of “structural faults” in the aircraft, another officer said, without elaborating.

In a blot on its otherwise unblemished record, a Russian origin Su-30MKI crashed in Jaisalmer Thursday, killing the co-pilot. The pilot, Wing Commander S.V. Munje, and the co-pilot, Wing Commander P.S. Narah, managed to bail out in time but the latter was killed after he was apparently hit by the falling debris of the aircraft.

Ironically, Narah belonged to the IAF’s Directorate General of Inspections and Safety and was putting the aircraft through its annual safety checks.

Munje is currently under “medical supervision”.

The aircraft had taken off from the Lohegaon air base in Pune on a routine sortie and crashed at 10.30 a.m. while returning to its base.

There were no reports of damage to property on the ground.

The IAF operates three squadrons (approximately 55 aircraft) of the jet, some of which were bought in a fly-away condition from its Russian manufacturer while the others were manufactured under license by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

It was not immediately clear which category the crashed jet belonged to.

The Su-30 has won universal acclaim from the air forces of the US, Britain and France whenever it has been fielded against them in war games. Eight Su-30s had participated in the prestigious Red Flag exercise with the US Air Force at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, last year and had more than held their own against their counterparts’ F/A-18 and F-16 combat jets.
A day after Sukhoi crash, fleet grounded, checks underway

Not at all encouraging. I dont' think that the pilots should be worried about the structural faults of the aircraft and what I feel after reading this is that there is some about of "masala" in the report as usual when shown via media. I was informed of the grounding, however the causes of accident in each of the three articles that I have read since yesterday, are shown to be different from each other.

Therefore, I would not bank on what the media is saying apart from the fact that the aircraft definitely crashed. As a matter of fact, I would advise all of you people here.not to take the media too seriously about the causes of the accident. Once the final verdict is reached, people will get to know the truth.. if the air force wishes to release it. I have a feeling that it was human error more than aircraft fatigue or structural inefficiency. What did not happen in the worst of conditions, happened on one fine day? Why am I surprised?

 

[nitesh]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/russian-team-arrives-today-to-probe-sukhoi-crash/455155/

It's all DDM no grounding of fleet:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/iaf-denies-grounding-sukhoi-fleet/91929-3.html

 

[youngindian]

its really sad but still su30mki is the 2nd best fighter in the world

 

[nitesh]

another speculation:

‘Fly by wire’ fault may have led to Sukhoi crash

As the probe into the “bizarre” Sukhoi 30 MKI crash last week continues, a line of investigation being followed by experts is that a malfunction in the ‘fly by wire’ system of the advanced fighter could have sent it into an uncontrollable spin that led to the accident.

 

[chandrahass]

It Better not be . RuAF Mig 29's were also grounded due to some structural problems . if the same problem is found here . Ruskies should be hold directly accountable and should be asked for the compensation.

well But i coud not swallow the fcat that fly by wire computer went haywire just like that

 

[Daredevil]

Russian experts to investigate Su-30 jet crash in India

08/05/2009 15:47 NEW DELHI, May 8 (RIA Novosti) - A group of Russian experts has arrived in India to look into the cause of a recent Su-30MKI fighter jet crash, a source in India's Defense Ministry told RIA Novosti on Friday.

An Indian Air Force Sukhoi-30MKI crashed on April 30 during a routine training flight near a village 170km from the town of Jaisalmer in the northeastern state of Rajasthan, killing one of its two pilots.

The source said 20 Russian experts arrived on Wednesday at the crash site to examine the wreckage of the plane. The incident was the first since the Su-30MKI was put into service with the Indian Air Force in 2002.

The Indian Air Force originally ordered 50 SU-30MKI aircraft from Russia in 1996-98 and an additional 40 planes in 2007. Hindustani Aeronautics (HAL) was also contracted to build 140 aircraft in India between 2003 and 2017 under a licensed production agreement.

According to open sources, the Indian Air Force currently operates some 60 Su-30MKI in three of its 33 squadrons.

RIA Novosti - World - Russian experts to investigate Su-30 jet crash in India

 

[nitesh]

The Hindu News Update Service

New Delhi (PTI): Even as the IAF is grappling with its first Sukhoi mishap, India has decided to hold talks with Russia to fit BrahMos cruise missile on to the Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft.

"The mishap will have no impact on our plans to equip the BrahMos on the Su-30 MKI. We are holding talks with Russians at the end of this month to discuss installation of BrahMos launcher on the heavy air superiority fighter," a Defence Ministry source told PTI here.

"The work is expected to be completed on the aircraft by early 2010 but we have not set any deadline yet for competing the programme," an official said.

The aerial version of the BrahMos will be nine metres long and once fitted, can auto-launch itself towards the target after being released from the aircraft by the pilot.

After being fitted on an aircraft, BrahMos will be the only cruise missile with the capability of being launched from land, sea and air.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Brahmos on the MKI? Will the MKI have to forego all its other weapons load to carry the Brahmos? That missile is quite large, even for a Su-30.....

Besides, does it make sense? What will a Su-30 armed with a single Brahmos be able to hit? Nuclear facilities maybe? Militant training camps? Can't those be hit with other A2G missiles as well?

 

[nitesh]

good news, but structural problems with the jet that is amusing :

Sukhois resume flying, nearly a month after crash - India - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: The frontline Sukhoi Su-30 MKI combat jets of the Indian Air Force have resumed flying nearly a month after the entire fleet was grounded following the crash of one of the aircraft that broke a 12-year accident-free record, an official said.

The aircraft are again being flown even as a 20-member team of Russian experts have been conducting checkups on them.

"The aircraft conducted a sortie last weekend," a senior Indian Air Force official said, but did not elaborate.

He, however, confirmed that the Russian team summoned to inspect the fleet is carrying on with the checks, inspecting the aircrafts' airframe and systems.

The IAF grounded its fleet of approximately 55 Russian-origin Su-30s after one of the aircraft crashed last week. Generally, an entire fleet is not grounded if an aircraft of a particular type crashes. In the case of the Su-30, however, there have been "recurring complaints" by pilots about problems with the jet.

The grounding of the Su-30 fleet has given rise to the alarming possibility of "structural faults" with the aircraft.

In a blot on its otherwise unblemished record, a Su-30 MKI crashed in Jaisalmer April 30, killing the co-pilot. The pilot, Wing Commander S.V. Munje, and the co-pilot, Wing Commander P.S. Narah, managed to bail out in time but Narah was killed after he was apparently hit by the falling debris of the aircraft.

Ironically, Narah belonged to the IAF's Directorate General of Inspections and Safety and was putting the aircraft through its annual safety checks.

The aircraft had taken off from the Lohegaon air base in Pune on a routine sortie and crashed at 10.30 a.m. while returning to its base.

The IAF operates three squadrons of the jet, some of which were bought in a fly-away condition from its Russian manufacturer while the others were manufactured under licence by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

It was not immediately clear to which of these categories the crashed jet belonged.

The Su-30 has won universal acclaim from the air forces of the US, Britain and France whenever it has been fielded against them in war games. Eight Su-30s had participated in the prestigious Red Flag exercise with the US Air Force at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, last year and had more than held their own against the US' F/A-18 and F-16 combat jets.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

Recurring complaints ??? Any idea what those might be ???

 

[p2prada]

The "recurring" complaints will be in plenty as soon as you induct a new platform. Even the F-22 had a lot of software hiccups.

We will need to wait for HAL to finish manufacturing the MKI with better quality control to see how well we can solve such problems.

Not to mention, this was the first time a Russian jet was so extensively modified to fit Indian and Israeli avionics especially for the ECM and ESM suites. So, it would be wise to expect problems.

But, if the problems exist in the engines, then that's serious.

 

[nitesh]

The "recurring" complaints will be in plenty as soon as you induct a new platform. Even the F-22 had a lot of software hiccups.

New platform! care to eplain how?

We will need to wait for HAL to finish manufacturing the MKI with better quality control to see how well we can solve such problems.

How you came to the conclusion that this was HAL manufactured jet?

Not to mention, this was the first time a Russian jet was so extensively modified to fit Indian and Israeli avionics especially for the ECM and ESM suites. So, it would be wise to expect problems.

But, if the problems exist in the engines, then that's serious.

Wow the samplatform got accolades from everywhere was in alien land and got 98% servity record even more then the home jets. Flown length and breadth of the country not got a single issue and you are just throwing in the conclusions.

 

[p2prada]

New platform! care to eplain how?

We have not manufactured a single operational unit till date. All the service parameters are setup by the Russians. So, until HAL comes out with a fully manufactured in house plane, we will not have any idea as to the exact structural defects, if any, if found on the plane.

So, until we complete the manufacturing process on a single unit then it is still a new platform. Also, did you forget our youtube karnal. He said the MKI is a new platform and we are still learning to fly it.

How you came to the conclusion that this was HAL manufactured jet?

I did not say the crashed plane came from HAL. I said we need to wait for a fully manufactured HAL plane to solve software and hardware problems.

Wow the samplatform got accolades from everywhere was in alien land and got 98% servity record even more then the home jets.

But, recurring complaints from pilots mean a lot. The problems may be small or big. But, if the article says recurring complaints then it has to be looked into.

Flown length and breadth of the country not got a single issue and you are just throwing in the conclusions.

Firstly, you can't come to any conclusions of your own if nothing about the servicing of the aircraft is known to civilians. How do you know the MKIs have never had a single problem?? Did ACM tell you in particular?

Do you think ACM or other officers will be openly criticizing a newly inducted radical platform.

You can never expect a newly manufactured plane to perform at 100%. It will never happen.
In the end everything comes down to maintenance.

 

[nitesh]

We have not manufactured a single operational unit till date. All the service parameters are setup by the Russians. So, until HAL comes out with a fully manufactured in house plane, we will not have any idea as to the exact structural defects, if any, if found on the plane.

This link of 2003 says the manufacturing is about to begin and you are saying from 6 year not a single one hasen given: HAL to begin delivery of Su-30 jets next year

Also the report of ToI says that it is not clear which plane went down HAL manufactured or russian manufatured? So all are wrong here?

So, until we complete the manufacturing process on a single unit then it is still a new platform. Also, did you forget our youtube karnal. He said the MKI is a new platform and we are still learning to fly it.

Is this is you basis of conclusion of a "new platform? If some body feels still something more to be learned you automatically comes to a conclusin t he is a newbie.

I did not say the crashed plane came from HAL. I said we need to wait for a fully manufactured HAL plane to solve software and hardware problems.

See the report pos it says some are HAL manufactured and some are Russian manufactured.

But, recurring complaints from pilots mean a lot. The problems may be small or big. But, if the article says recurring complaints then it has to be looked into.

What are the recurring complaints?

Firstly, you can't come to any conclusions of your own if nothing about the servicing of the aircraft is known to civilians. How do you know the MKIs have never had a single problem?? Did ACM tell you in particular?

And ACM came and personally told you about the problems

Do you think ACM or other officers will be openly criticizing a newly inducted radical platform.

what sort of logic is that the platform which gets accades every where why it has to be criticized.

You can never expect a newly manufactured plane to perform at 100%. It will never happen.
In the end everything comes down to maintenance.

Then how came it is flown till now without a single crash?

 

[p2prada]

This link of 2003 says the manufacturing is about to begin and you are saying from 6 year not a single one hasen given: HAL to begin delivery of Su-30 jets next year

Also the report of ToI says that it is not clear which plane went down HAL manufactured or russian manufatured? So all are wrong here?

Er. I dont see the IRBIS, new home made engine or composites on the HAL manufactured MKIs as of now. The first fully produced MKI will only come from HAL in 2010. The earlier models were knocked down kits. Anybody can assemble from a kit. There is nothing you can learn from the plane if you are only putting it back together.

Is this is you basis of conclusion of a "new platform? If some body feels still something more to be learned you automatically comes to a conclusin t he is a newbie.

Exactly. The platform is new. The F-22 is new too. A single pilot needs atleast 2000 hours on the plane if he has to rise up in rank(I mean very high). That's like 7 years considering he does 300 hours every year, which itself is big. You need to know your plane like you are born to fly it. Until then you are only learning.

See the report pos it says some are HAL manufactured and some are Russian manufactured.

You will see a big difference between a HAL manufactured and a Russian manufactured MKI in 2010.

What are the recurring complaints?

And ACM came and personally told you about the problems

Don't be a prat. Recurring complaints are not unheard of when you induct a new platform. They will not say it. Rafale, EFT, F-22, all have problems that needs to be sorted out by the user(IAF or USAF etc). Some will say the seat is too high. Some say my LCD display hangs when I press that button. Some say the windscreen wiper is not working. Some say the engine throttle is not working fine. Some say the radar has stopped moving. Some say the navigation system fails every time he crosses the timezone etc etc etc.

what sort of logic is that the platform which gets accades every where why it has to be criticized.

A winning Ferrari can still breakdown. All praised the capabilities of the MKI and consider the Flankers as a maintenance nightmare. There is a difference.

Then how came it is flown till now without a single crash?

As to that, it will be revealed shortly.

 

[nitesh]

Er. I dont see the IRBIS, new home made engine or composites on the HAL manufactured MKIs as of now. The first fully produced MKI will only come from HAL in 2010. The earlier models were knocked down kits. Anybody can assemble from a kit. There is nothing you can learn from the plane if you are only putting it back together.

So are you trying to say me that now onwards everything will be "manufactured" in India? Think about it.

Exactly. The platform is new. The F-22 is new too. A single pilot needs atleast 2000 hours on the plane if he has to rise up in rank(I mean very high). That's like 7 years considering he does 300 hours every year, which itself is big. You need to know your plane like you are born to fly it. Until then you are only learning.

What does this mean? Until unless every body in the whole force flies the plane for 2000 hours it is new? Then by your logic even MiG21 is new for IAF because everyone does not have 2000 hours flying it. and IAF has retired so many planes in spite of having "new".

You will see a big difference between a HAL manufactured and a Russian manufactured MKI in 2010.

What are the difference

Don't be a prat. Recurring complaints are not unheard of when you induct a new platform. They will not say it. Rafale, EFT, F-22, all have problems that needs to be sorted out by the user(IAF or USAF etc). Some will say the seat is too high. Some say my LCD display hangs when I press that button. Some say the windscreen wiper is not working. Some say the engine throttle is not working fine. Some say the radar has stopped moving. Some say the navigation system fails every time he crosses the timezone etc etc etc.

I am specifically asking what were the complaints.

A winning Ferrari can still breakdown. All praised the capabilities of the MKI and consider the Flankers as a maintenance nightmare. There is a difference.

Comparing apples to oranges.

As to that, it will be revealed shortly.

So till then just sit tight. Don't jump to conclusions.

 

[p2prada]

So are you trying to say me that now onwards everything will be "manufactured" in India? Think about it.

OMG. You are messing it all up. You are totally confused about recurring complaints and manufacturing defects.

What I am saying is if there are manufacturing defects, then they will not come to the surface until you manufacture them on your own. Simple as that.

The Russians won't tell us what the defects are. We will have to find that out on our own. And HAL can do that only when the manufacture and testing of the new MKI starts.

What does this mean? Until unless every body in the whole force flies the plane for 2000 hours it is new? Then by your logic even MiG21 is new for IAF because everyone does not have 2000 hours flying it. and IAF has retired so many planes in spite of having "new".

OMG again. Thoroughly confused that you are. You need only 1 or a few pilots. Not all. The senior pilots have mouths to speak. If they find problems they will tell it to the juniors. As of date, we don't even have those senior pilots to teach the juniors.
The MKI is not an easy platform at all.

When the MKI was first inducted, there was not 1 rookie pilot who could handle the MKI without flying the Mig-21 first. After the Hawk it changed. Now rookies are jumping into the MKI directly. That's what it means by learning.

Right now, the Russians are no where as good as IAF is in TVC. But, their test pilots have been flying TVC testbeds since the 90s. Therein lies the difference.

We still have sometime to go before we harness the MKIs full potential.

What are the difference

HAL applied manufacturing procedures, Composites, IRBIS PESA, Al-31FM uprated engines. The differences are like apples and oranges.

I am specifically asking what were the complaints.

Who knows?? But, that doesn't mean complaints don't exist. Simply because it does not come in the papers does not mean you become oblivious to it.

Comparing apples to oranges.

Exactly my point. All the international accolades are apples, all the manufacturing defects are oranges. So, lets stick to the oranges in this discussion. International accolades means squat if the plane is not maintained properly.

So till then just sit tight. Don't jump to conclusions.

In no way was I referring to the crash the moment I started my post. The entire point of this discussion is about the "recurring complaints." They are like apples and oranges.

The so called "Recurring Complaints" may not even have anything to do with the Crash. Your are completely misreading my post.

I am talking about oranges while you have assumed they are apples.

 

[nitesh]

OMG. You are messing it all up. You are totally confused about recurring complaints and manufacturing defects.

What I am saying is if there are manufacturing defects, then they will not come to the surface until you manufacture them on your own. Simple as that.

The Russians won't tell us what the defects are. We will have to find that out on our own. And HAL can do that only when the manufacture and testing of the new MKI starts.

I am not at all confused, manufacturing and assembling are two different thing. By manufacturing means making things from ground up. Assembling means getting knocked down kits and conneting them. Are you stilll sure that HAL will be "manufacturing".

OMG again. Thoroughly confused that you are. You need only 1 or a few pilots. Not all. The senior pilots have mouths to speak. If they find problems they will tell it to the juniors. As of date, we don't even have those senior pilots to teach the juniors.
The MKI is not an easy platform at all.

When the MKI was first inducted, there was not 1 rookie pilot who could handle the MKI without flying the Mig-21 first. After the Hawk it changed. Now rookies are jumping into the MKI directly. That's what it means by learning.

Right now, the Russians are no where as good as IAF is in TVC. But, their test pilots have been flying TVC testbeds since the 90s. Therein lies the difference.

We still have sometime to go before we harness the MKIs full potential.

MKI is a new plane in terms of capabilities and it requires learning. Nothing new it still does not makes any sense that how IAF does not have pilots who does not know how to fly the MKI.
Enlighten me with the bold part.

HAL applied manufacturing procedures, Composites, IRBIS PESA, Al-31FM uprated engines. The differences are like apples and oranges.

you are talking about MLU which is planned after the serial production stops.

Who knows?? But, that doesn't mean complaints don't exist. Simply because it does not come in the papers does not mean you become oblivious to it.

If it is not known in public domain then what makes you so confident that "it exists". Especially it is amusing not a single complaint reported till now

Exactly my point. All the international accolades are apples, all the manufacturing defects are oranges. So, lets stick to the oranges in this discussion. International accolades means squat if the plane is not maintained properly.

International accolades included the "excellent serviceability record" also.

In no way was I referring to the crash the moment I started my post. The entire point of this discussion is about the "recurring complaints." They are like apples and oranges.

The so called "Recurring Complaints" may not even have anything to do with the Crash. Your are completely misreading my post.

I am talking about oranges while you have assumed they are apples.

[/quote]
Stick to one point then deviations will not be there.