Steyr AUG an overpriced burden

[WiseMan]

Not sure if anyone discussed this but in 1980s India was offered Steyr AUG at a good price and many regret not taking the offer: this may change that thinking.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11278332

Hated army rifles unlikely to be sold
Army bosses say it's "unlikely" that 9,000 assault rifles, hated by Kiwi soldiers for being under-powered and unreliable, will be sold to other militaries when phased out over the next few years.

The Austrian-made Steyr 5.56mm rifle was bought by the Defence Force in 1987.

But squaddies fighting in hot-spots like Afghanistan had complained that it was prone to stoppages and lacked an effective range.

A 2011 Ministry of Defence study found the rifles were not powerful enough to "identify accurately adversaries" and was "ineffective at ranges greater than 200m".

Cabinet agreed in 2008 that better weapons were needed.

That news prompted serving and former soldiers at the time to vent online.

"It is a highly overrated assault rifle and if given the choice, I would rather throw stones at the enemy than carry that stoppage prone piece of crap," one ex-soldier wrote on The Firearm Blog.

Another serving New Zealand Army member agreed: "The accuracy on my issued rifle was terrible ... I'd have been lucky to hit the side of a barn."

On Tuesday Defence Minister Jonathan Coleman confirmed the Government has granted approval for replacement guns.

"It is important NZDF personnel are well equipped and have effective modern rifles suited to today's operational environment," says Dr Coleman.

 

[WiseMan]

All European/ US attempts with standard infantry combat rifle have failed:

SA-80 UK. Major disappointment in Iraq war 1992. Leading to many revisions.
http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/SA80.htm

G-36 Germany. Total failure in hot environments. Barrel bends with sustained fire.
http://m.dw.com/en/von-der-leyen-de-maizière-show-solidarity-over-faulty-g36-rifle/a-18509302

M-16 problems are well known.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/383508/

Point is that INSAS has problems but so do these imported ones. OFB needs to get its act together and continue improvements with basically sound design.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Complex firearms having large amount of moving parts,such as Steyr AUG are often criticised for their lack of reliability.

Moreover,I think western firearms manufacturers make their weapons with local environmental conditions (take AUG and its maker,Steyr which is located in Austria) in mind so the very same weapon might not perform well in places with different environmental conditions (Like Afghanistan,harsh environment compared to Austria).

INSAS on the other hand was developed with all different environmental conditions in mind which India has at her defending borders.

Though,one must accept the AUG was first Successful bullpup assault rifle.It was the gun which popularised bullpup configuration,even though there were several bullpup firearms made before it such as Enfield EM-2.Without AUG we might never get other bullpups such as Tavor,

 

[WiseMan]

Complex firearms having large amount of moving parts,such as Steyr AUG are often criticised for their lack of reliability.

Moreover,I think western firearms manufacturers make their weapons with local environmental conditions (take AUG and its maker,Steyr which is located in Austria) in mind so the very same weapon might not perform well in places with different environmental conditions (Like Afghanistan,harsh environment compared to Austria).

INSAS on the other hand was developed with all different environmental conditions in mind which India has at her defending borders.

Though,one must accept the AUG was first Successful bullpup assault rifle.It was the gun which popularised bullpup configuration,even though there were several bullpup firearms made before it such as Enfield EM-2.Without AUG we might never get other bullpups such as Tavor,

Johnny baba! Agreed, although AK-47 was developed in Arctic Russia and does well in any weather.

 

[deejai]

I wouldn't say the AUG is a failure. It served Australia and Malaysia well for many years in various environments. I dont know whats going on in NZ with their AUG. Maybe their rifles are too old and at the end of their service life. One thing I know is that in the army there are a million different opinions about everything. Many soldiers quietly carry on satisfied with their rifles. Problems become news because when people complain they do it loudly. Also some soldiers are never happy no matter what. Its probably the same in India with the INSAS.

 

[WiseMan]

I wouldn't say the AUG is a failure. It served Australia and Malaysia well for many years in various environments. I dont know whats going on in NZ with their AUG. Maybe their rifles are too old and at the end of their service life. One thing I know is that in the army there are a million different opinions about everything. Many soldiers quietly carry on satisfied with their rifles. Problems become news because when people complain they do it loudly. Also some soldiers are never happy no matter what. Its probably the same in India with the INSAS.

Not a total failure but luckily none of the bearing armies went into a real war to test it.
BTW, Australia is also replacing their AUG. Their upgrade contract is given to Thales.
AUG is a cool looking gun and probably was well ahead of its time. More complicated the design, more complications to follow. I am happy India didn't adopt it

 

[Johny_Baba]

Also some soldiers are never happy no matter what.

Agreed.With it,Some soldiers are so business minded they never criticise what is issued to them as long as it serves the purpose and 'get the job done'.

 

[Bornubus]

Agreed.With it,Some soldiers are so business minded they never criticise what is issued to them as long as it serves the purpose and 'get the job done'.

Aug was trialed and purchased in limited numbers during 80s and issued to 1 Para.

 

[acetophenol]

^^^Not sure if its Indians, but sure looks like our people.

Considering the extensive usage of Steyr Aug by Pakistani Special forces, having a few Steyr Augs might come in handy for us someday

 

[Kunal Biswas]

These didn't proved to be very effective in our terrain & training, AUG came before INSAS program, These guns were meant for regular infantry as well after elite units declare them ok for service ..

Old photo during its induction in limited quantity ..

 

[sbm]

This is a fascinating photograph Kunal! I wonder how many were purchased? Have you heard of any G41 rifles for the then Para Cdo Bn (a single photo from Sri Lanka)? Also, during Op Bluestar, the weapons used by the paracommandos during the assault were described as "rifles as big as LMGs". I wonder what they meant? Stoner M63s?

 

[The Last Stand]

Johnny baba! Agreed, although AK-47 was developed in Arctic Russia and does well in any weather.

AK-47 design was based on Kalashnikov's experience as a tank commander on the front. He definitely faced slush and mud equally and realized that a modestly-accurate weapon that never jammed or needed much of maintenance would be a god-send to stressed soldiers.

 

[charlie]

AK-47 design was based on Kalashnikov's experience as a tank commander on the front. He definitely faced slush and mud equally and realized that a modestly-accurate weapon that never jammed or needed much of maintenance would be a god-send to stressed soldiers.

AK47 design was influence by SKS

 

[Anirbann Datta]

AK47 design was influence by SKS

I guess AK47 had it's father as STG-44, I might be wrong. mod/senior members can light better. @Kunal Sir

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

I guess AK47 had it's father as STG-44, I might be wrong. mod/senior members can light better. @Kunal Sir

There's no solid proof, but German weapon designers like Hugo schmeisser may have helped refine the AK. Read this article by Ian from forgotten weapons
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ak-and-stg-kissing-cousins/

 

[Anirbann Datta]

There's no solid proof, but German weapon designers like Hugo schmeisser may have helped refine the AK. Read this article by Ian from forgotten weapons
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ak-and-stg-kissing-cousins/

welcome, please introduce your self in forum .

 

[Johny_Baba]

AK47 design was influence by SKS

Why ? cause both look outwardly similar ?

AK47's design has borrowed elements from these weapons.

It took
-its gas-operated long stroke reloading mechanism,Ergonomic features and concept of shortened,intermediate cartridge is taken from Sturmgewehr-44.
-its trigger mechanism,bolt+bolt carrier design and receiver design is heavily influenced from Remington Model 8 (and to some extent,M1 Garand).

Both AK and SKS are heavily different weapons except the cartridge they fire (7.62 x 39mm).

 

[rkhanna]

G-36 Germany. Total failure in hot environments. Barrel bends with sustained fire.
http://m.dw.com/en/von-der-leyen-de-maizière-show-solidarity-over-faulty-g36-rifle/a-18509302

M-16 problems are well known.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/383508/

Dont know about the SA-80. But the M-16 / AR15 has gone through Multiple evolution's and its hard to call it a failed weapon system today.

As for the G-36. After having spent sometime on SOFREP i have come to learn (from users) that the G-36 is a perfectly fine weapon. The "Scrapping" of it is an entirely political decision by the German Govt to foist a new gun on the German Army and Stamp on the G-36.,

 

[sbm]

rkhanna, The G-36 is issued to the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard in some numbers. It is viewed as being OK but it isn't liked. They think it's too delicate. Consider that they don't operate in a particularly hostile environment and it actually surprised me.

 

[Johny_Baba]

rkhanna, The G-36 is issued to the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard in some numbers. It is viewed as being OK but it isn't liked. They think it's too delicate. Consider that they don't operate in a particularly hostile environment and it actually surprised me.

I blame that to the Stoner-patern rotating bolt being used in many 5.56 NATO firearms.

G36 uses bolt (similar to AR-15) which have 8 locking lugs (7 on bolt head and one on bullet extractor) that sits inside a barrel extension having similar profile - like a key sets in padlock.

Bolt head of H&K SL-8,Civilian Variant of G-36 showing its locking lugs,firing pin,bullet extractor and spring operated ejector

During operation,this locking lugs interacts with lugs of barrel Extension.Barrel Extension (along with barrel and other parts) is further fitted on trunnion which keeps everything in place.

Barrel Extension of AR-15* showing its locking lugs and threads in which a threaded barrel fits.

This design ensures proper and smooth operation without any jerk but problem with this sophisticated design is,it cannot tolerate abuse.Even a slight damage to a single lug can make it fail to operate properly.Furthermore,fouling such as dust,sand,mud etc. may also interfere with bolt/lugs and can make it go offline.
This delicate bolt is not for weapons that are meant to get under harsh conditions.

*Note:I couldn't find image showing G-36's barrel extension,hence i used this image.Since both AR-15 and G-36 are using similar bolt,the locking lugs on barrel part must be similar in profile.

Further Note:India's very own MCIWS/AAR also uses Stoner pattern bolt and bolt extension.