Soldiers aren't meant to run canteens: Panel

[Bhadra]

Army is not parliament, People of parliamentary public accounts committee should understand it nor they should try to make army an parliament otherwise no one will be on Borders to save anyone inside..

All these task fall in General duties, These are part of general duties in which Solider were engage in work in peace time, Why again cannot be answer coz one can never understand this unless he is part of us or lived among us..

Once a Civilian part of Army is no longer a normal Civilian anymore, And one can never understand us from sitting top at some chair looking down to something alien to him, Military is not same as Civilian..



@Ray Sir..

Ha Ha Ha ...
you said "us'..

are you part of us...

I do not think so knowing you for last two years...

 

[Ray]

So i say glorified maids.

It is obvious that you are afflicted by the 'grapes are sour' syndrome.

I am not aware what is your profession, but one does observe that the electrifying remorse and being consumed by self pity of being a handmaiden of one's boss and so this superimposing of one's condition to comment on others!

Hahaha, i am amused

.

I would not be surprised.

I am sure you have not been close to the front ever in your life and so how would you know?

Nor, I take it that you have ever engaged in battle.

And yet, you know what are the duties of the sahayak in battle!!!!!!!

It appears that some people are walking miracles who know all without experiencing the same and instead bank their profound knowledge on what is called 'old wives tales' to strut around like proud know all peacocks with the plumage in all its glorious splendour!

Sahayaks are trained soldiers who have joined Indian Army to defend their country from enemy not to polish shoes, wash your clothes, shop for your groceries, clean your house and other jobs done by a typical "maid" while peons are just peons, they are no trained personals.
This is just ridiculous and shameful. No self-respectful organisation in 21st century would allow it's trained manpower to be wasted like this, to serve it's Senior Officials. But well it's Indian Army.

I wish you knew the Training Cycle system wherein you would not have indicated your ignorance.

They don't wash (everyone including jawans) have washing machines. Ironing is done by the dhobi on payment. They don't shop for groceries since the vegetable truck does the rounds daily and ladies are selective on what they buy and their freshness to be left to men who may have no idea, cleaning of the house is not done by a shayak. It is done by maids employed by the officer.

Wow wow wow !
What about the families of those Sahayak's and Indian Army personals deployed ?
Well i think Officers are just special., no equal-equal in Army.

They live in army areas (family campuses known as family lines) where shops, medical facilities, STD and transport is available within the campus. The gates are manned 24 x7 and at night there is patrolling.

A vegetable truck does the rounds daily.

I would recommend you visit and stay in a military unit and then go tsk tsk!

BTW, JCOs also have sahayaks. And they are from the ranks!

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The sahayak system is a colonial hangover and army is reluctantance to abolish the system is indicative of the fact that army does not moved forward from colonial days.We still have army regiments based on ethnic identity,our military ranks and insignia haven't changed much since independence,overdependence on foreign imported weapons and rejecting indegeneous military weapons etc are few issues that have been bothering the army.Anyways the navy and airforce have abolished sahayak type system and army must follow since forcing a jawan to do menial tasks for senior officers is demeaning to the fighting spirit of the jawan who form the bulk of the army.

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

This sahayak system looks very colonial...I have found sahayaks doing duties of maids..even dropping the child of officers to school, and the child in turn treats him like a servant...I am sure he didnt sign up for that isnt it??...that some how creates a lot of difference...yaa...a person cooking is fine as long as it is a part of the peace time duties, but I would love to see a brigadier washing his own clothes...or picking up his child from school, or employing civilian helps for such duties, if they are called 'sahayaks' then they should be treated like one not servants...right??

 

[Ray]

The sahayak system is a colonial hangover and army is reluctantance to abolish the system is indicative of the fact that army does not moved forward from colonial days.We still have army regiments based on ethnic identity,our military ranks and insignia haven't changed much since independence,overdependence on foreign imported weapons and rejecting indegeneous military weapons etc are few issues that have been bothering the army.Anyways the navy and airforce have abolished sahayak type system and army must follow since forcing a jawan to do menial tasks for senior officers is demeaning to the fighting spirit of the jawan who form the bulk of the army.

This sahayak system looks very colonial...I have found sahayaks doing duties of maids..even dropping the child of officers to school, and the child in turn treats him like a servant...I am sure he didnt sign up for that isnt it??...that some how creates a lot of difference...yaa...a person cooking is fine as long as it is a part of the peace time duties, but I would love to see a brigadier washing his own clothes...or picking up his child from school, or employing civilian helps for such duties, if they are called 'sahayaks' then they should be treated like one not servants...right??

come to think it, India is one huge colonial hangover.

The way of governance, laws, justice system, the bureaucracy, and everything including the fact that you are writing in English!

Imagine a President, who has nothing to do in governance or even the Governor.

Troopers don't cook.

They simply don't know how to cook and even the cooks enrolled are no cooks, even though they are called chefs these days!

No one is a servant.

Indeed we should change our insignias etc.

It was once suggested the Central Indian Horse (CIH) should be called 'Madhya Bharat Tattoo'!

Did you not read my article?

As a Colonel I cooked and a Major did the duties of a Masalchi!

 

[Bhadra]

Ha Ha Ha ...

Solsiers are not supposed to run canteen.. ??

MoD Babus. CAG Babus and D o Dos are supposed to provision tooth paste ans soaps to then in Kargil and Leh ...

Some people ARE really pigheads..

 

[Ray]

but I would love to see a brigadier washing his own clothes...or picking up his child from school, or employing civilian helps for such duties, if they are called 'sahayaks' then they should be treated like one not servants...right

I think that is a dumb thing to say that the Brigadier should wash his clothes.

He does.

The only thing is that he has a washing machine!

One does not have to pick up a child from school.

Only those who want to demonise would say that without a clue of the reality.

One comes and goes by the Army shcool bus,

And that bus (or truck if you will) drops the child at the doorstep of his house!

The problem with you all is that you are not aware of the realities and are influenced by drawing room interaction of bilious people who are basically ne'er do wells and grouse about everything,.

Tomorrow, you will complain as to why the PM uses a bullet proof BMW, when you ride a scooter!

Or why should the Ministers travel by aircraft and not go by bullock carts as the peasants do, if indeed they are the representatives of the people!

Be the PM or a Minister and you will know why.

Till then, you could act as bilious as you want without knowing the reality!

 

[Bhadra]

I think that is a dumb thing to say that the Brigadier should wash his clothes.

He does.

The only thing is that he has a washing machine!

One does not have to pick up a child from school.

Only those who want to demonise would say that without a clue of the reality.

One comes and goes by the Army shcool bus,

And that bus (or truck if you will) drops the child at the doorstep of his house!

Sir pardon me,

does a thanedar wash his clothes..

does a Junior engineer or an executive engineer wash his clothes..
Does a Tahsildar wash his clothes..
Does a DM pay for his Dhobi ?

You have been in the army.. so would you mind telling this cu*t how much Dhoby bill have you been paying ??


In Army there are all trades employed.. Cooks, waiters, Washermen, Safaiwlas, and in peace time in static units the labourers..

Waht is wrong in employing them for which they are paid..

Deos one mean they should be DRDO scientists ??

 

[Bhadra]

How did Lal Kurtis in Cantonments come about?

Think that over!

Ha Ha Ha ..

You naughty general..
you still dream of Lal Kurties..

 

[Ray]

Sir pardon me,

does a thanedar wash his clothes..

does a Junior engineer or an executive engineer wash his clothes..
Does a Tahsildar wash his clothes..
Does a DM pay for his Dhobi ?

You have been in the army.. so would you mind telling this cu*t how much Dhoby bill have you been paying ??


In Army there are all trades employed.. Cooks, waiters, Washermen, Safaiwlas, and in peace time in static units the labourers..

Waht is wrong in employing them for which they are paid..

Deos one mean they should be DRDO scientists ??

If one knew what one has to pay for services (which are not free), then only can one discuss.

But then how can one discuss with those who are armchair, drawing room chatterati oozing with diamonds and sipping pink champagne talking about the disgrace that is done by the armed forces including demanding the repealing the AFSPA.

They are the fashionable noveau riche with a misplaced supercharged conscience in total competition with the Western standard!

It is time that these people stand vigil at the frontier and check out what is reality!

But would they?

Would they know that apart from their pay, they get an ED pay and also is paid by the people using their services paid through the Mess Bill of the Officer?

 

[abingdonboy]

Most Western militaries hire contractors to do such work. Soldiers should not have to deal with such trivial things as washing dishes, peeling potatoes and doing errands. There is definite abuse in India and Russia were soldiers are pimped out to serve non-military functions and officers pocket the profits or personal gain. Shut it down and get into the 21st century.

I can certainly do without the insults. Attack the message, not the messenger. Not one Army base in the Green Zone had Cook MOS in it = totally outsourced.

I don't know why anything the West does immediately becomes the gold standard that should be emulated by everyone else. All this outsourcing is not done on any ethical or moral grounds but purely to save costs. Out-sourcing is a bloody epidemic in Western armies but particularly the US and UK. It has been suggested by the Pentagon that private contractors can/will be used by the US DoD to outsource COMBAT ops, this is a rapidly deteriorating situation and before you know it many Western nations won't have professional armies but private-contractors on call.


I have gotten a lot of this info from my mate who is in the UK's SFSG (1 PARA) and he and his fellow army-men are increasingly worried about out-sourcing, as it stands he tells me almost all of the UK army's basic rifle training is done on privatly owned ranges with pvt-security contractors as instructors, the driver training is almost entirely outsourced to a 3rd party as are simulators for the army and RAF's flying units not to mention base security (both at home and abroad) and many other areas. Not only, he tells me, has this lead to a rapid deterioration in standards but has also brought about serious issues relating to security. Anedcodtally he tells me that in many cases these third parties do not do the extensive background checks the UK MOD requires and as such incidents of theft and worse have happened by these third party staff. Additionally he tells me that instead of saving money that in many cases this outsourcing is actually costing the UK military an arm and a leg as now, for example, the third party charges the UK military for every hour they use in simulators and this has lead to less hours on the simulator by the aircrews as the MOD can't pay the amount it would take to pay for the amount of hours as before.



I believe there is a balance to be found, maybe India is too far one way and the West is too far another way. I think these "sahayaks" are a throw-back to the colonial era. And whilst members here may justify their existence and say that their experience is quite positive with in this respect I think it is a case that this is just entrenched in the IA's mindset and it will be a few more years before the IA is fully ready to depart with this specific custom.The IA always seems to be behind the other two services wrt modernity and thinking, IIRC the IAF and IN did away with this practice many years ago. Given the traditional nature of the army and its sheer size this is no surprise I suppose.

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

I think that is a dumb thing to say that the Brigadier should wash his clothes.

He does.

The only thing is that he has a washing machine!

One does not have to pick up a child from school.

Only those who want to demonise would say that without a clue of the reality.

One comes and goes by the Army shcool bus,

And that bus (or truck if you will) drops the child at the doorstep of his house!

The problem with you all is that you are not aware of the realities and are influenced by drawing room interaction of bilious people who are basically ne'er do wells and grouse about everything,.

Tomorrow, you will complain as to why the PM uses a bullet proof BMW, when you ride a scooter!

Or why should the Ministers travel by aircraft and not go by bullock carts as the peasants do, if indeed they are the representatives of the people!

Be the PM or a Minister and you will know why.

Till then, you could act as bilious as you want without knowing the reality!

Sir, as a journalist it is my job to look around what is happening around me, I have seen children of top level officers in the forces, studying in private schools, being dropped and picked up, and the spoke to the child who has this notion that the person who comes to pick him/her is a servant, I can get you real stories if you want me to...maybe they were several stray cases happening, but they happen...

 

[Ray]

Sir, as a journalist it is my job to look around what is happening around me, I have seen children of top level officers in the forces, studying in private schools, being dropped and picked up, and the spoke to the child who has this notion that the person who comes to pick him/her is a servant, I can get you real stories if you want me to...maybe they were several stray cases happening, but they happen...

As a journalist, I also take it that it is their job to take aberrations and make it appear the general theme!

The journalist from my school that I can state off hand are:

Sunanda DattaRay
Pritish Nandy
Jug Suraya
Chandan Mitra
Swapan Dasgupta.
Pronoy GuhaTakhurta

They are good, but they also have to have a living to do!

You let me know of the child who feels that a sahayak is a servant and I will take up the matter very seriously and see that this top officer is no longer a top officer since I will hound him to hell!

In fact, it is my job these days to hunt for such aberrations and go hell for leather.

Ask Sujan Datta of the Telegraph.

 

[Bhadra]

Sir, as a journalist it is my job to look around what is happening around me, I have seen children of top level officers in the forces, studying in private schools, being dropped and picked up, and the spoke to the child who has this notion that the person who comes to pick him/her is a servant, I can get you real stories if you want me to...maybe they were several stray cases happening, but they happen...

My derar Journalist sir,

It should also your job to see things in correct perspective rather than in a slanted manner.

Things like CSD canteen are a must for running an efficient organisation. In a place which is hundreds of Km away from the nearest habitation, where there is no market, no shop, no bazar, there has to be a way to cater for basic amenities to the soldiers. He needs soap, toiltery, shaving razors and baldes, undergarments, some snacks , buiscuits etc etc to meet his dailly needs.

Most of the militarry camps in or near the cities are in secluded areas. Where no civil transport runs. The roads are generally restricted to use by the military transport and civil transport is discouraged for security reasons. How will the children of service personel go to schools in such araes? How does a soldier reach Bus stand or railway station from there? Hence basic amenities to soldiers have to be provided by the system or the government.

Government earlier use to issue Rum to soldiers. Now they pay soldiers a pltry sum instead. Where does the soldier buy his rum from? You want him flat at Mazanoo Ka Tilla ?

In all other Armies the goverment provides PX services at the Goverment expenses where as in India the units provision these on their own.

Jouranlist like you have objection to that. The day will be difficult when the soldiers start demanding their rights.

I really dread of that day

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

With all due respect Ray Sir and Bhadra Sir,
It is a mentality I was referring to all through out, which is prevalent in most post-colonial power structures, and that typical attitude somehow comes naturally, which cannot be changed with taking one officer to task...yes going by that even babus and minister too have it, but I guess the forces can always show the way...
Sir, I am not aware if there are there any laws or norms within the Army that states what all duties a 'sahayak' must be given by an officer and what not? or is there a set guideline given to a 'sahayak' saying what are the duties he would perform, and given what all he can say a no to?...I am not sure if I have heard of any...If not shouldn't there be something of the sort, and civilian helps employed wherever possible??

As a part of my job it was my observation that I made Sir....again that too as a civilian...again that might be several stray cases...I am also aware of the regions that these positions are located in and also that the facts that the children of the officers and jawans alike do have difficulty in traveling, and as for CSD canteens they do require help, but why not civilian employees, the Armed forces can always employ civilians here with proper training and selections, I think the quality of food will be also be better in that case...I dont think that will be an issue, ....

Please don't take me wrongly here..

 

[Bhadra]

With all due respect Ray Sir and Bhadra Sir,
It is a mentality I was referring to all through out, which is prevalent in most post-colonial power structures, and the a typical attitude somehow comes naturally, which cannot be changed with taking one officer to task...yes going by that even babus and minister too have it, but I guess the forces can always show the way...
But Sir, are there any laws or norms within the Army that states what all duties a 'sahayak' must be given by an officer and what not? or is there a set guideline given to a 'sahayak' saying what are the duties he would perform, and given what all he can say a no to?...I am not sure if I have heard of any...If not shouldn't there be something of the sort, and civilian helps employed wherever possible??

As a part of my job it was my observation that I made Sir....again that too as a civilian...again that might be several stray cases...I am also aware of the regions that these positions are located in and also that the facts that the children of the officers and jawans alike do have difficulty in traveling, but I am sure there is a system to solve that too right?

Somreet...

For an officer from the combat arms a buddy / helper / Sahayak is required or he will not be able to do his job.

He will check gurad say at 2300 H in ninght and then agaian at 0500 h. Then iN the morning he will take out a patrol is mines have drufted on track due to rains.
Then he would walh 10 kn to his HQ..

A tortouriorus day.

Who will keep his laether ( including shoes)
His upholster, his carbine, his magazine and his bullets?
Who will feed him ?
Who will fetch mail for him..
who will accompany him for the chaechs..
Waht will happen if some soldier attacks him...


You are civies do not know what is meant by a buddy or a Sahayak..

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

Somreet...

For an officer from the combat arms a buddy / helper / Sahayak is required or he will not be able to do his job.

He will check gurad say at 2300 H in ninght and then agaian at 0500 h. Then iN the morning he will take out a patrol is mines have drufted on track due to rains.
Then he would walh 10 kn to his HQ..

A tortouriorus day.

Who will keep his laether ( including shoes)
His upholster, his carbine, his magazine and his bullets?
Who will feed him ?
Who will fetch mail for him..
who will accompany him for the chaechs..
Waht will happen if some soldier attacks him...


You are civies do not know what is meant by a buddy or a Sahayak..

But, in reality is it limited to that all throughout the country, Sir?? You can obviously say better than me Sir... No doubt you require a jawan in these, at least for dealing with weapons and protecting the officer..but can't the other things you mentioned be worked out in a different way...??


I am just asking whether there is a set rule mentioning these.....??

Let me give you an instance..I had to visit a post in one of the trouble torn regions of the country a few years back and had the privilege to stay with an Army contingent, trust me Sir, I received one of the most cordial treatments in life, I guess I never felt I was away from home in a Metropolitan city in the country...thanks to each and every officer and their buddies there...but Sir, I felt really embarrassed to be served by a 'Jawan of the Indian Army', I didn't deserve that...the buddies go through the same tumultuous say as their officers do...even more maybe...shouldn't they be used to keep an officer able to perform his duties as an officer, performing only the duties you mentioned earlier?? I found them doing a lot more than that....

 

[Bhadra]

How will an officer manage it different way in the Jungles of Vavuniya, Kokrajhar, Nagaland or Tawang....

Who is going to be his sahayak in Demchok even if the officer is ready to pay Rs ten thousand..

Are you a volunteer sir...

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

Sir,
That is definitely the job of a trained person to accompany the officer, I agree to that...I am not trained for that Sir, and that is why I was talking about the situation all through out the country, what about the officers posted in the cities??...will the officer require a help in feeding him or polishing his boot or serving his drink on a tray?...there must be a difference there sir isn't it??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Somreet Bhattacharya

Army is not parliament, People of parliamentary public accounts committee should understand it nor they should try to make army an parliament otherwise no one will be on Borders to save anyone inside..

All these task fall in General duties, These are part of general duties in which Solider were engage in work in peace time, Why again cannot be answer coz one can never understand this unless he is part of us or lived among us..

Once a Civilian part of Army is no longer a normal Civilian anymore, And one can never understand us from sitting top at some chair looking down to something alien to him, Military is not same as Civilian..

You and many those have zero insight understanding of our system and it is not something that one write and we think people to understand it either, You ask one question we answer from that Answer people will ask another 1000 questions this is where it stops and you and others should read my words..