Small arms of India

[Heavenshaker]

I wonder if those optics will be able to retain zero on those stamped receivers.

 

[Akshay Fenix]

For Second Year In A Row, Assault Rifles Made In India Rejected By Army

The Indian Army has rejected home-made assault rifles meant to replace AK-47s and INSAS rifles due to quality issues, sources said. The Ordinance Factory Board manufactured the assault rifles.

Highlights

1. Army conducted tests earlier this month on new rifles
2. Assault rifles made by government's Ordnance Factory Board
3. Foreign vendors will now have to compete for trials

In a major setback to Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Make In India initiative, the Army has rejected home-made 7.62 x51 mm assault rifles that were meant to replace AK-47s and INSAS rifles, the basic weapon used by jawans. NDTV has learnt that the indigenous assault rifle manufactured by the government's Ordinance Factory Board (OFB) failed basic tests last week. It had many faults, according to Army sources, including excessive recoil and "excessive flash and sound signature", which makes the gun indiscreet in combat.

Sources said a "complete redesigning of the magazine" is needed to make loading the rifle easier. Safety mechanisms were also problematic with the rifle which had an "excessive number of faults and stoppages [during trials] to the extent of more than twenty times the maximum permissible standards."

Last year, the Army rejected an earlier indigenous rifle called the Excalibur. According to sources, the 5.56 mm Excalibur does not meet the firepower requirements of the Army. According to sources, "the Excalibur Rifle was considered only as a possible replacement for the in-service 5.56 mm INSAS rifle. Since major shortcomings were noticed during comparative trials, the option was not pursued."

With no acceptable domestic assault rifle that fits its requirements, the Army is being forced to acquire the weapon through the "Buy and Make Global" route which will see international vendors competing in trials before a shortlist is announced. Then, competitive financial bids take place and the winner of the process needs to tie up with Indian companies to manufacture the bulk of the assault rifles in India, a lengthy process that could take years before the first guns enter service with the Indian Army.

Tomorrow, key stakeholders from the Army, Air Force, Navy and various branches of the Defence Ministry meet to spell out the precise specifications of the assault rifles that the forces need. The acquisition has already been badly delayed.

The government had planned to announce a formal Request for Proposal (RFP) for these guns by April this year. For the moment, the armed forces have not even decided on the exact specifications that they require. As they work out these details, 21 gun manufacturers from around the world have signalled their intention to bid for this contract.

The Indian Army last year rejected an earlier indigenous rifle called the Excalibur.

Soldiers currently use AK-47s and INSAS or Indian Small Arms System rifles, which are made in India, and were inducted in the Army in 1988 and are meant to be replaced this year with deadlier assault rifles of higher calibre, especially for use along borders and in counter-insurgency operations.

PM Modi's Make In India campaign seeks to boost manufacturing including by building an indigenous defence industry that would involve local private arms manufacturers working with foreign firms. India is the world's largest arms importer. The government is forecast to spend $250 billion on modernisation of its armed forces over the next decade.

India gets 70 per cent of its arms from abroad. For decades, it has bought off-the-shelf equipment mainly from Russia, which offered to assemble some weaponry locally but little in the way of technology transfers, deemed essential under PM Modi's policies.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/for-...rifles-made-in-india-rejected-by-army-1715267
Article first posted by cobra commander.

Bloody hell these OFB should be fired immediately can not even produce a descent rifle , waste of Indian tax payers money.
Once the foreign vendors comes in, pressure will build up on these PSU to perform or they will get terminated by Modi.

 

[Shaitan]

Confused, one source says it's doing well, other says it's doing poorly.

 

[Vinod DX9]

Which rifle? I couldn't understand clearly 7.62*51? AK 103 copy?

 

[Akshay Fenix]

Which rifle? I couldn't understand clearly 7.62*51? AK 103 copy?

.
.
============> 7.62x51

 

[Vinod DX9]

Are bhai I can understand 7.62*51, name? AK 103 copy one?

 

[Akshay Fenix]

Are bhai I can understand 7.62*51, name? AK 103 copy one?

Currently, there is only 1 rifle from OFB under trials which is 7.62*51 derivative of AK 103. The previous one 7.62*39 called Ghaatak got rejected last year itself as the requirements were changed from x39 to x51.

 

[G10]

http://idrw.org/army-rejects-indigenously-built-rifles-second-year-row/#more-138898

 

[Dipanjan Sen]

god help this country i know the armed forces will israeli assault rifle gaile ace in think this country has no future in R&D and INDIA stop buying israeli assault rifle or we will fail in making in india

 

[ezsasa]

god help this country i know the armed forces will israeli assault rifle gaile ace in think this country has no future in R&D and INDIA stop buying israeli assault rifle or we will fail in making in india

Galil ACE if selected, it would be made in india...
There is a JV between Punj-loyd and IWI.....

Probably barrel will not be made in india, Even american tavor barrels(civilian versions) are imported from israel as far as i know.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Don`t count so much on NDTV ..

===========================

Bloody hell these OFB should be fired immediately can not even produce a descent rifle , waste of Indian tax payers money.
Once the foreign vendors comes in, pressure will build up on these PSU to perform or they will get terminated by Modi.

 

[Prashant12]

Army lists improvements needed before Mhow test

BENGALURU: The Indian Army on Wednesday has said that the indigenously developed 7.62mm X 51mm assault rifle developed by the Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) still requires comprehensive design analysis before being considered for the trials at Infantry School, Mhow.

The Project Management Team (PMT) had completed demonstrative firing of the rifle last week. Among the things that the Army has pointed out to is "excessive recoil, barrel bulge, and stoppage-free firing."

TOI had reported earlier this week that the rifle had not achieved stoppage-free firing of 2,400 rounds which the army requires. "During the evaluation, the PMT found excessive number of faults and stoppages to the extent more than 20 times, the maximum permissible standard," the army has said.

PK Agarwal, Additional General Manager, RFI had told TOI that the team is confident of achieving stoppage free firing, but had failed to acknowledge some of the other concerns. He did not respond to calls on Wednesday.

The Army has further said: "Excessive flash and sound signature have been observed in the prototype as compared to desired levels...the aspect of interchangeable barrels has not been thought, conceived and thus not incorporated."

Besides, the Army has also said that the weapon needs ergonomics correction, which assume considerable importance.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ded-before-mhow-test/articleshow/59254970.cms

 

[sbm]

Army lists improvements needed before Mhow test

BENGALURU: The Indian Army on Wednesday has said that the indigenously developed 7.62mm X 51mm assault rifle developed by the Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) still requires comprehensive design analysis before being considered for the trials at Infantry School, Mhow.

The Project Management Team (PMT) had completed demonstrative firing of the rifle last week. Among the things that the Army has pointed out to is "excessive recoil, barrel bulge, and stoppage-free firing."

TOI had reported earlier this week that the rifle had not achieved stoppage-free firing of 2,400 rounds which the army requires. "During the evaluation, the PMT found excessive number of faults and stoppages to the extent more than 20 times, the maximum permissible standard," the army has said.

PK Agarwal, Additional General Manager, RFI had told TOI that the team is confident of achieving stoppage free firing, but had failed to acknowledge some of the other concerns. He did not respond to calls on Wednesday.

The Army has further said: "Excessive flash and sound signature have been observed in the prototype as compared to desired levels...the aspect of interchangeable barrels has not been thought, conceived and thus not incorporated."

Besides, the Army has also said that the weapon needs ergonomics correction, which assume considerable importance.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ded-before-mhow-test/articleshow/59254970.cms

This I can accept. To expect immediate perfection is insane. The issues can be resolved but OFB better get its act together. They have been given the first chance and can deliver. The weapon was inadequately tested before trials. More haste less speed.

 

[Akshay Fenix]

Don`t count so much on NDTV ..

===========================

Sir ji,
It's now livefest, Zee, India today and much of every MSM has picked it up.

It was actually PTI that posted it first and then rest all media picked it up later.


The OFBs failed us again, just like they have been doing for past 70 years.

Hammerhead out here and another army chap from other forum too had their doubts with this product. You had high hopes from this gun didn't you, I understand.

 

[Hari Sud]

http://idrw.org/army-rejects-indigenously-built-rifles-second-year-row/#more-138898

There is a huge well paid lobby in India to sabotage Indian gun making effort.

 

[Akshay Fenix]

@hammer head

I don't see the logic in going behind a 7.62x51mm sir. Had it been 7.62x39mm it would have still been easier to comprehend.

In an Era where the entire world has left behind the battle rifle caliber, why is the Indian Army going back to what the world has discarded?

7.62x51 is able to penetrate BPJs while the other does not. Army wants a weapon that can provide 1 hit kill from a greater range.

Check this out, even the US army is turning to 7.62x51 mm from Afghan Taliban CT experience.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a25974/now-its-the-army-that-wants-a-new-rifle/

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Combat is not fought with liking, Its about something you can trust on and familiar with, 1B1 is something in service for 2 decades and used by every infantry unit, The poor grunt does not have time to learn from A to Z because someone thinks the other rifle looks better or believe in experiments, Its about what works and what not ..

Evolution of a firearm has nothing to do with OFB, Get rid of that slogan used in terrorist forum and Facebook, Its the nature of a firearm design to malfunction and in due time its improved to suits the need, This is something common with all firearms, 1B1 gone through that and a normal sane person don`t want a new design to go through another 2 decades which 1B1 went ..

Calling 7.62x51mm can only defeat BP vest shows your understanding of firearms, I suggest better learn before posting, Media quoted incorrectly, Someone posted a better clear information at INSAS thread very recently, You should read ..

' THE MORE YOUS SHARE, THE MORE YOUR LEARN '

==============

Indigenous efforts are always defamed and discouraged via media outlets under influence of arms dealers, Something like this have been seen in past also, 1B1 story all over again ..

Sir ji,
It's now livefest, Zee, India today and much of every MSM has picked it up.

It was actually PTI that posted it first and then rest all media picked it up later.


The OFBs failed us again, just like they have been doing for past 70 years.

Hammerhead out here and another army chap from other forum too had their doubts with this product. You had high hopes from this gun didn't you, I understand.

7.62x51 is able to penetrate BPJs while the other does not. Army wants a weapon that can provide 1 hit kill from a greater range.

Check this out, even the US army is turning to 7.62x51 mm from Afghan Taliban CT experience.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a25974/now-its-the-army-that-wants-a-new-rifle/

 

[pmaitra]

The more self sufficient a country is, the more it is immune from blackmail by external factors.

If India made every single piece of weapon in India, India's foreign policy would have been much more robust. Similarly, reducing dependency in other fields (fields other than weaponry, such as jobs, raw materials, power, etc.), would also make India immune from blackmail by external factors.

Coming to small arms, I have formed an opinion several years ago, that many people are impressed by publicity and advertisement. Foreign arms are not cheap, and when we buy them, we end up paying for the weapon, and the money, partly or fully, that the company spent on advertising. In other words, we are paying for our own persuasion. Remember, most of these foreign makers are for-profit companies, and are not in the arms business for philanthropic purposes.

Looking good is less important than getting the job done. Looking good will matter when seeking export customers. That is, nonetheless, a secondary concern.

 

[ezsasa]

7.62x51 is able to penetrate BPJs while the other does not. Army wants a weapon that can provide 1 hit kill from a greater range.

Check this out, even the US army is turning to 7.62x51 mm from Afghan Taliban CT experience.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a25974/now-its-the-army-that-wants-a-new-rifle/

I had created a thread called lunkers TV. The guy shares his experiences as a American sniper in Afghan CT ops till 2007-08 period.

His weapon was scar 762 nato, in some videos he also shares disadvantages of 762 in CT environment.

 

[Heavenshaker]

Currently, there is only 1 rifle from OFB under trials which is 7.62*51 derivative of AK 103. The previous one 7.62*39 called Ghaatak got rejected last year itself as the requirements were changed from x39 to x51.

It is a 7.62*51 derivative of the Excalibur, not the ak 103.