Small arms of India

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: New Ishapore`s Assult Rifle Goes Into Production

MG3 is perhaps the bad kind of MG, Their are thousands of POF MG3 captured by IA but none used by us, Rather IA prefer to use PKM captured from Terrorists, Following reasons >

1. It is inaccurate ..
2. Eats ammunition really fast ..
3. Barrel change is very often ..

It is air cooled, it is easy to change barrels, it has a good rate of fire, it was belt loaded, the MG3 incorporated drum magazines for better handling.

 

[Saichand K]

Its sad to see so many rifles but handguns we have only one licensed copy of HPB. I believe that there should be assortment of handguns to choose from which should be made indigenously. Also why is TAR not included in our list of small arms?

 

[Saichand K]

Here we will find out the capabilities of side arms of Indian Army.
The list of side arms provided in our Army are as follows:-

Name Type Caliber Origin
Pistol AUTO 9 mm 1A Semi-automatic pistol 9mm Parabellum Canada

Glock 17 Semi-automatic pistol 9×19mm Parabellum Austria
Beretta 92 Semi-automatic pistol 9mm Parabellum Italy
SIG Sauer P226 Semi-automatic pistol 9mm Parabellum Germany and Switzerland

Going for the 1st one":-

1) Pistol Auto 9mm 1A"- (also known as browwning high power)


windows 7 screen shot
The Browning Hi-Power is a single-action, 9mm semi-automatic handgun. It is based on a design by American firearms inventor John Browning, and completed by Dieudonné Saive at Fabrique Nationale (FN) of Herstal, Belgium. Browning died in 1926, several years before the design was finalized. The Hi-Power is one of the most widely used military pistols of all time,[3] having been used by the armed forces of over 50 countries.[1]
The Hi-Power name alluded to the 13-round magazine capacity; almost twice that of contemporary designs such as the Luger or Mauser 1910. The pistol is often referred to as an HP (for "Hi-Power" or "High-Power")[4] or as a GP (for the French term, "Grande Puissance"). The term P-35 is also used, based on the introduction of the pistol in 1935. It is most often called the "Hi-Power", even in Belgium. It is also known as the BAP (Browning Automatic Pistol), particularly in Irish service.
Produced locally by Indian Ordnance Factory/Ishapore Arms using stamping dies from the former John Inglis manufacturing facility in Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Design:-
The Browning Hi-Power has undergone continuous refinement by FN since its introduction. The pistols were originally made in two models: an "Ordinary Model" with fixed sights and an "Adjustable Rear Sight Model" with a tangent-type rear sight and a slotted grip for attaching a wooden shoulder stock. The adjustable sights are still available on commercial versions of the Hi-Power, although the shoulder stock mounts were discontinued during World War II. In 1962, the design was modified to replace the internal extractor with an external extractor, improving reliability.
Standard Hi-Powers are based on a single-action design. Unlike modern double-action semi-automatic pistols, the Hi-Power's trigger is not connected to the hammer. If a double-action pistol is carried with the hammer down with a round in the chamber and a loaded magazine installed, the shooter may fire the pistol by simply pulling the trigger so long as the slide was previously cocked, or by pulling the hammer back and pulling the trigger. In contrast, a single-action pistol must be cocked manually before the first shot, by pulling the slide to the rear and releasing it. In common with the M1911, the Hi-Power is therefore typically carried with the hammer cocked and the safety catch on (a carry mode often called cocked and locked in the USA or "made ready" in the UK, or sometimes called condition one).
The Hi-Power, like many other Browning designs, operates on the short-recoil principle, where the barrel and slide initially recoil together until the barrel is unlocked from the slide by a cam arrangement. Unlike Browning's earlier Colt M1911 pistol, the barrel is not moved vertically by a toggling link, but instead by a hardened bar which crosses the frame under the barrel and contacts a slot under the chamber, at the rearmost part of the barrel. The barrel and slide recoil together for a short distance but, as the slot engages the bar, the chamber and the rear of the barrel are drawn downward and stopped. The downward movement of the barrel disengages it from the slide, which continues rearward, extracting the spent case from the chamber and ejecting it. After the slide reaches the limit of its travel, the recoil spring brings it forward again, stripping a new round from the magazine and pushing it into the chamber. This also pushes the chamber and barrel forward. The cam slot and bar move the chamber upward and the locking lugs on the barrel reengage those in the slide.
The Hi-Power has two flaws: The standard trigger pull is heavy, especially for a single-action pistol. This disadvantage is a consequence of the Hi-Power's magazine safety design, which was initially added to the model to meet the requirements of the French military in 1935. The standard Hi-Power magazine safety is connected to the trigger and is released by a plunger pressing on the surface of the magazine. This action of the plunger on the magazine adds tension to the trigger pull, and the required force to operate this feature adds resistance as well.[7] This problem is often resolved by removing the magazine safety entirely, thus voiding the pistol's warranty, or by polishing the interface surfaces between the safety plunger and the magazine.[8] After-market trigger springs with reduced tension are also available to improve the trigger pull.
In addition, the pistol has a tendency to "bite" the web of the shooter's hand, between the thumb and forefinger. This bite is caused by pressure from the hammer spur, or alternatively, by pinching between the hammer shank and grip tang. Many HP owners fix this problem by altering or replacing the hammer, or by learning to hold the pistol to avoid injury. While a common complaint with the commercial models with spur hammers similar to that of the Colt "Government Model" automatic, it is seldom a problem with the military models, which have a smaller, rounded "burr" hammer, more like that of the Colt "Commander" compact version of the 1911.
Nevertheless, its ability to hold 13 rounds of ammunition, nearly double that of the Colt M1911 made it very desirable as a military-issue pistol.
Military Use:-
Browning Hi-Power pistols were used during World War II by both Allied and Axis forces. After occupying Belgium in 1940, German forces took over the FN plant. German troops subsequently used the Hi-Power, having assigned it the designation Pistole 640(b) ("b" for belgisch, "Belgian"). Examples produced by FN in Belgium under German occupation bear German inspection and acceptance marks, or Waffenamts, such as WaA613. In German service, it was used mainly by Waffen-SS and Fallschirmjäger personnel.
High-Power pistols were also produced in Canada for Allied use, by John Inglis and Company in Toronto. The plans were sent from the FN factory to Britain when it became clear the Belgian plant would fall into German hands, enabling the Inglis factory to be tooled up for Hi-Power production for Allied use. Inglis produced two versions of the Hi-Power, one with an adjustable rear sight and detachable shoulder stock (primarily for a Nationalist Chinese contract) and one with a fixed rear sight. Production began in the Fall of 1944 and they were on issue by the March 1945 Operation Varsity airborne crossing of the Rhine into Germany. The pistol was popular with the British airborne forces as well as covert operations and commando groups such as the Special Operations Executive (SOE), the U.S. Office of Strategic Services (OSS) and the British Special Air Service (SAS) Regiment. Inglis High-Powers made for Commonwealth forces have the British designation 'Mk 1', or 'Mk 1*' and the manufacturer's details on the left of the slide. They were known in British and Commonwealth service as the 'Pistol No 2 Mk 1', or 'Pistol No 2 Mk 1*' where applicable. Serial numbers were 6 characters, the second being the letter 'T', e.g. 1T2345. Serial numbers on the for the Chinese contract instead used the letters 'CH', but otherwise followed the same format. When the Chinese contract was cancelled, all undelivered Chinese-style pistols were accepted by the Canadian military with designations of 'Pistol No 1 Mk 1' and 'Pistol No 1 Mk 1*'.[9]
In the post-war period, Hi-Power production continued at the FN factory and, as part of FN's marketing and product line-up (which also included the FN FAL rifle and FN MAG general purpose machine gun), it was adopted as the standard service pistol by over 50 armies (93 nations). At one time most NATO nations used it, and it was standard issue to forces throughout the British Commonwealth. It was manufactured under licence, or in some cases cloned, on several continents. Former Iraqi ruler Saddam Hussein often carried a Browning Hi-Power. Former Libyan ruler Muammar Gaddafi carried a gold-plated Hi-Power with his own face on the design of the grips which was waved around in the air by Libyan rebels after his death.[10]
While the Hi-Power remains an excellent design, since the early 1990s it has been eclipsed somewhat by more modern designs which are often double action and are manufactured using more modern methods. However, it remains in service throughout the world. As of 2007, the MK1 version remains the standard service pistol of the Canadian Forces, with the SIG P226 being issued to specialized units along with the Sig Sauer P225. The weapon is the standard sidearm of the Belgian Army, Indian Army, Indonesian Armed Forces, Australian Defence Force, Argentine Army, Luxembourg Army, Israel Police, Singapore Armed Forces and Venezuelan Army, among others. The Irish Army replaced its Browning Pistols (known popularly as BAPs, or Browning Automatic Pistols) with the H&K USP automatic in 2007. From 2013 the British Army is replacing the Browning with the polymer-framed Glock 17 Gen 4 pistol, due to concerns about weight and the external safety of the pistol.[11]

windows 7 screen shot
I didnt found enough details on this gun and its use in Indian Army. I request thw senior members and veterans enlighten us on BHP (Browning High Power)

Hi,
Apart from HPB, is DRDO/OFB designing any side arms as part of F-INSAS? Why are we not license producing side arms?

 

[Spindrift]

Re: New Ishapore`s Assult Rifle Goes Into Production

As long as you have the ammo belt under the gun, Its always heavy ..

Weapons manufactures in the U.S. are working on caseless ammo for machine guns.

 

[Anikastha]

'Hand in Hand' 2015: Chinese soldier tries out the INSAS LMG.

Are those helmets with Indian chaps BP?

 

[cobra commando]

Are those helmets with Indian chaps BP?

Here is a brochure from Polyglass Fibres, one of the Indian firms that makes these helmets.

 

[ghost]

@ShoorVeer Sir,


Good post and good points ,I agree with the essence of it, but would have different approach to some of the points raised by you.


1. Excalibur to be used by army as a stop-gap measure till MCIWS or any imported maal is chosen as a standard rifle. See, a new design will be introduced and Excalibur is not a new design, its just an improved INSAS 1B1 which new grip, butt, rails and can fire in full auto. Hence, INSAS design will be phased out.
1 I do not agree with the stop-gap theory or approach .As per reports new rifle is in top 10 priority list of Indian army,this means that they would like to have new rifles as soon as possible.I feel that mciws should be given not more than two years, to be trial ready. It is not being developed from scratch and it has already undergone some refinment and some trials.As per some reports ,it will go for trials by the year end.Two more years will be more than enough for its development ,if they cannot do it in that time frame than they will not be able to do it in much more time.If somehow MCIWS fails to cumliate in two years then we should call a RFI from domestic private companies (jv with foriegn firms) under make in India.We should complete the trials by 1 and half years and declare the winner , sign the contract. So that guns start arriving within next one year. The total time taken would be 4and a half years.We can work with insas for this time.No need to spend resources.Plus this is Indian army over here,they may procure excalibur right now and then keep on ranting for rest of the service life of the rifle that how bad it is.I would like them to adopt any rifle only when they are satisfied with it,I do not want to hear rants as in the case of insas.


2. When the INSAS platform, which will be surely replaced (will give reasons) as it is not liked by many, they will need to introduce a LMG platform similar to the rifle. This is one of the main reasons why the foreign rifle tender was scrapped. How can you have a section LMG that uses a completely different kit (Logistical Nightmare ).

2 This is not why the foreign rifle tender was scraped. LMG tender is under process right now and trials will start from next year.



3.Also remember that these foreign companies take billions to even develop a specific version of their gun for you. Example:- M27IAR for marine corps. Imagine what beretta would have asked us if we had adopted the ARX.
3 Agree, but if we will call for Indian private companies at least they will learn from it, and thus this would help in developing good Indian private sector industry in future.



4.MCIWS is something we havent done before. New mechanism, new design, new concept and most importantly that lower reciever. Made of one single Aluminium block, milled reciever. OFB will take a decade to upgrade all its factories to that standard.
4 I think a decade time is too much for upgrading.See iwi started construction of factories in Vietnam since 2011 and by 2014 they had started large scale productions .So,3 years are more than enough.



5. MCIWS and MSMC are new and untested concepts that require at least 5-6 years of honest, rigourous trials to make it just like the user's specifications and expectations. This will take time.
5 See this is not rocket science or aircraft engine development .These are simple technologies and not something entirely new or innovative .The technology is present and available to all ,so two years is more than enough time for them to develop it into a mature product,please consider that they have already spent fair amount of time in development till now,and mciws is already a developed product not some design in papers.



6.Seems like ARMY has changed its training and doctrine. Auto weapons are now being inducted as a standard. The troops too will have to get used to it. And given the time we need to perfect MCIWS, we need excalibur to prevent our forces from getting stuck in the soviet era with INSAS.
6 This should have been done from the very begining.Having burst mode adds unnecessary complexity to rifle . A soldier can be trained to fire in burst using auto with proper trigger control.We have a professional army, we can easily train them to fire in burst using auto.




7. Hence, dont expect MCIWS to become a standard rifle anytime before 2020. In the mean time you will also hear and see new LMG prototypes and MMG prototypes and Dragunov replacers from MCIWS platform. See, this is just the beginning, a new platform will roll out but take its time. Just like INSAS took from 1983 to 1999. But this time not much.
7 Fingers crossed ,as soon as possible!drdo is developing a lmg ,whether it is based on mciws platform or not,I don't know.




8. Actually I am happy that they are not ordering Excalibur in the CAPFs . As you must be knowing, weapons tend to get stuck in them. It took 60 years to replace .303 from them. Let the MCIWS family roll out and Ill be happy to see them adapt it. Till then stick with INSAS platform for logistics (Wars can come anytime). Yes, for full auto requirement swotch to Excalibur but in small numbers because if ordered much, they then wont be replaced and the CAPFs will get stuck with them.
8 Agree, they have ak in adequate number and can order more ghatak till that time.



9. As far as STATE POLICE is concerned, its a funny situation. On one hand bihar police has a swat team of M4 equipped ACH helmet laden. Their 50% force must not be having their .303 replaced! And dont even expect them to shun STERLING by 2045 . In my opinion, replace all sterlings with Anamika just because MP5 magazines and familiarity has increased exponentially after 26/11. Many police forces now have it. As for rifles, buy Excalibur. Its full auto, 30 rds magazines and has picatinny rails so when the optical sights dont seem to be a luxury, you can mount them.
9 I would like to add that along with weapons they should also work on their training and tactics.Each policeman should be sent to a 7day camp in tactics and cqb and weapon training by rotation in a year,every year.



10. Lets not rush the new weapons (MCIWS & MSMC) and let them develop with all the support system needed. Let us till that time develop ACOG type efficient sights and red dot sights and let their distribution increase. Whats the point of carrying a modern AR BASED MCIWS with no good sights and iron sights?
10 I wish, I could say that !But it is drdo and arde that we are talking about .They may take 10 years more and then give you thenga or ask for more time.I remember DRDO chief once had said in an interview that kalantak carbine is best in its class in the world,now where is kalantak?So irrespective of how much we would want, seeing the dismal track record of them we can't trust them more than a certain time limit.After which army will have no other option then to look for other ways for procurement.


The whole problem lies with the false approach of ARDE as well as Indian army.


If I was in DRDO ,I would have started the simultaneous development of whole new family of firearms ,after insas had been in service for 15 years.I would have asked for few soldiers from special forces and infantry who have taken part in a number of firefights .I would ask for their suggestions,what would they want in their rifle,design,features,weight,ergonomics and everything else which is pertaining to firearms.I would make them the part of developing team so that once the prototype has been prepared they can suggest changes and improvement.I would ask the soldiers who are posted in extreme heat in desert and extreme cold in Siachin about the problems they face in their weapons ,and try to rectify those problem in the new weapon.

Once the prototype have been completed , I would produce nearly 500 pieces and send them to army units through out the country. Then ask for their feed back after 6 months,I would make changes as per the feed back and then the gun would have been ready for final trails and induction.


Regarding army ,they should have sent their men to arde few years before they planned to replace rifles, and should have asked ARDE to develop guns as per their specifications, in the given time .In close collaboration with the army team which would have been deputed to ARDE specially for this project.


I have heard from a recently retired senior army official, that his sources inside army have told him that they are preparing new RFI for single calibre rifle which would be issued soon.Now ,with so many theories floating around only god knows !

 

[pmaitra]

If I was in DRDO ,I would have started the simultaneous development of whole new family of firearms ,after insas had been in service for 15 years.I would have asked for few soldiers from special forces and infantry who have taken part in a number of firefights .I would ask for their suggestions,what would they want in their rifle,design,features,weight,ergonomics and everything else which is pertaining to firearms.I would make them the part of developing team so that once the prototype has been prepared they can suggest changes and improvement.I would ask the soldiers who are posted in extreme heat in desert and extreme cold in Siachin about the problems they face in their weapons ,and try to rectify those problem in the new weapon.

Being pro-active is a good trait. Personally, I like the idea.

In case of India, I doubt how this would have played out. It is quite possible someone would question ARDE, as to who asked them to waste taxpayers money on a rifle the army did not want?

Even to produce prototypes, the employees at the various rifle factories would need to work on it. The various rifle factories are under productivity rules. Their employees get paid based on the number of rifles they produce. This is a portion of their salary. So, no employee would want to work on a new rifle if it was not asked for by the army, because, they simply would not get paid for their effort.

 

[ghost]

Being pro-active is a good trait. Personally, I like the idea.

In case of India, I doubt how this would have played out. It is quite possible someone would question ARDE, as to who asked them to waste taxpayers money on a rifle the army did not want?

Even to produce prototypes, the employees at the various rifle factories would need to work on it. The various rifle factories are under productivity rules. Their employees get paid based on the number of rifles they produce. This is a portion of their salary. So, no employee would want to work on a new rifle if it was not asked for by the army, because, they simply would not get paid for their effort.

Sir,

I would have told that someone, I am in armament research & development.Research & development is a continuous process in which we have some success and some failure, and that is how we evolve,innovate ,produce new technologies.You can't expect us to be stagnant, and then one day produce the latest technology and finished product out of no where.

So,what you call wastage I call it investment in developing the technology for future ,technology demonstrator to be precise.I am not in manufacturing process that I will produce to sell ,my basic job is technology development through trial and error.



ARDE should pay these employees for production of the prototype for them,or else govt should include the production of prototype under productivity rule and make payment for the production of the prototype.


I don't think the employee are not paid to produce prototype.Imagine asking govt employee to produce something and telling them that they will have to do it for free ,as no one will pay for it.I don't think it is possible or viable,someone sure do pay for the prototype production.These payment will fall under the expenses of research and development work undertaken by ARDE even if the work is done by a third party.




Regarding your previous post pertaining to gun weight,I have prepared something.



There is a interesting relationship between gun weight and recoil.In simple term we can say that having all other factors like ammunition, system of operation etc similar and having two guns with variable weight the lighter gun will have more recoil than the heavier gun.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, this is one of the laws of newton. This means that the momentum of a rifle's reaction will exactly equal the momentum of the bullet and powder gasses ejected from the barrel. Rifle weight is a crucial factor in the recoil , rifle weight is inversely proportional to recoil. Increase the gun weight by, say, 10% and the recoil goes down by 10%.

Momentum: the quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity.Mass into velocity= momentum

Momentum is product of mass and velocity. The heavier gun has more mass, so, for the same momentum, it must have less "backwards" velocity, so less felt recoil.


When we have two same rifle with different weight but firing same ammunition the momentum acting on both of them would be equal irrespective of weight.The same momentum is transferred to the gun (same as the bullet butt in the opposite direction) but for a heavy gun, the speed is lower so the Kinetic Energy is even less.Hence it will have less felt recoil.


Recoil:
Rifle recoil is most simply explained by Newton's First and Second Laws of Motion. When a rifle is fired, a force is exerted on the bullet that projects it forward. By Newton's 1st Law, it can be inferred that and opposite force will be imposed on the rifle. From Newton's 2nd Law it can be deduced that this force can cause an acceleration (linear or angular) which results in velocity and therefore kinetic energy. Energy is also transferred into the marksman in the form of work. The total of this energy is called Recoil Energy and can be calculated.


when you have 400 ft/lbs of energy leave the front of the barrel, force equalling that 400 ft/lbs of energy is coming back into your gun and through it into your hand and then going down the earth through you.This is what makes you feel recoil.

There are two phases of recoil, moreover. Primary recoil begins momentarily after the firing pin hits the primer. Propellant rapidly creates an expansion of gas that overcomes the inertia of the bullet or shot charge and wad and accelerate them down the barrel against the force of friction and air resistance.
Secondary recoil – the effects of which are much smaller – starts when the ejecta (pellets, wad and burnt powder) leave the barrel and there is a sudden release of gas. The gun is pushed back much like a rocket.

This is the recoil which is felt by gun when it fires, when this recoil reaches the shooter it becomes perceived recoil or felt recoil.However, perceived recoil, what the shooter feels, is a highly subjective matter. In addition to gun weight, it is influenced by many factors. One of the most important of these is the fit and shape of the rifle stock. A good recoil pad can help soften the blow to the shooter's shoulder. Gas-operated semi-automatic actions reduce apparent recoil by spreading it over a longer period of time.

Perceived recoil can also be divide into two sub categories,"soft" or "sharp" recoiling, soft recoil is recoil spread over a longer period of time, that is at a lower acceleration, and sharp recoil is spread over a shorter period of time, that is with a higher acceleration.


Recoil is not only about rearwards movement, though. There is also a rotation about the axis of the shoulder. This is because the centre line of the bore/s is above the shoulder line. When this rotation effect occurs, the muzzle/s moves up and the comb of the gun may be brought into abrupt contact with the cheekbone. At the same time the butt sole may slip from the shoulder (especially if it is poorly designed). A gun with a steeply angled cheek piece will be especially uncomfortable.





Now let me explain why a heavy gun will have less recoil through basic physics.


velocity:the speed of something in a given direction.


When a bullet with mass m leaves a gun with a velocity v, the gun must have an equal-but-opposed momentum MV, where M is the mass of the gun and V is the recoil velocity, or
mv+MV=0

If there are two possible gun sizes, M1 and M2, each will have a recoil velocity V1 and V2.
If weight for M2 = 2M1,Thus M2 is heavier than M1.

Both will have equal momentum acting upon them hence

M1V1=M2V2,

M1V1=2M1V2 ,

V1 =2V2


The velocity of lighter gun M1 will be V1=2V2, velocity acting upon lighter gun will be more is proved.recoil velocity determines how abrupt the blow to the shoulder feels.So,a lighter gun will give you a more abrupt blow to your shoulder if everything else is same.

Now, when we are talking about recoil it has been made clear that velocity of a lighter gun is more hence the blow is more abrupt.But when we are talking about recoil there is one more important factor,that is kinetic energy or recoil energy.It determines how hard the blow to the shoulder feels.


kinetic energy:In physics, the kinetic energy of an object is the energy that it possesses due to its motion. It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes.


Recoil Energy is the energy that is required to push the gun in the opposite direction of the bullet. When the gun is fired, the mass of the bullet and the gasses move out of the barrel. This causes a force that pushes the gun in the opposite direction.

kinetic energy/recoil energy=0.5 into mass of the gun into square of the velocity of the gun.



It will be measured in joules.

I know kinetic energy of lighter rifle will be more than the heavy rifle .But ,I can't give you a good example for this maybe someone who is master in physics could chip in regarding this.


Now let us see some formula:



Gun velocity = (bullet mass x bullet velocity) + (powder charge mass x powder charge velocity) / Gun mass x 1000.


conversion factor of 1000 is in the equation to set the equation correct for kilograms,since rest of the mass are generally in grams while gun mass is in kilograms.




formula: Recoil energy = 0.5 x Gun mass x (Gun velocity) square.



Now using the above formula let us verify what has been explained above.

For this let us take two anamika submachine gun.

Let them be x and 2x

Let the weight of x be 3kg,let the weight of 2x be 4kg(so the 2x gun is heavierby 1kg while keeping other things constant)

Let all these be constant in the two guns:

9mm bullet mass=7grams(I have taken aproximate for convenince)


bullet/muzzle velocity= 400m /sec

powder charge mass =6.0gr

powder charge velocity 396meter per second


Gun velocity of x

Gun velocity = (bullet mass x bullet velocity) + (powder charge mass x powder charge velocity) / Gun mass x 1000.


gun velocity = (7x400)+(6x396)/3x1000

gun velocityof x = 1.72m/sec


gun velocity of 2x


keeping everything constant apart from weight which will be 4kg


gun velocity =(7x400)+(6x396)/4x1000


gun velocity of 2x = 1.29 m/s


Hence it is proved in practice that lighter gun has higher velocity ,hence recoil is more abrupt.




Recoil/kinetic energy = 0.5 x Gun mass x 9Gun velocity)square.



recoil energy of gun x= 0.5 x 3 x 1.72square

recoil energy x = 4.43 Joules


recoil energy of gun 2x= 0.5 x4 x1.29square


recoil energy 2x =3.32joules


Hence it is proved in practice that lighter gun has higher recoil/kinetic energy ,thus the recoil is hard on your shoulder when compared with heavy gun.


Now ,some people will say if such is a case why heavy guns like ak47 have more recoil than mp5 ,it's because weight is inversely proportional to recoil when everything else is constant.In case of ak 47 it fires higher power calibre with more velocity hence more recoil as compared to 9mm which is a small calibre with lower velocity.


However if we have a 9mm submachine gun weighing 10 kg the recoil will be negligible .But before we rejoice we should realize that additional weight means more burden on soldier,easy fatigue for soldiers,physical toll on soldier,compromise on his speed and mobility,compromise of his reflex shooting.

Some people might say if heavy rifle have less recoil that how the rifles are getting lighter and having reduced recoil at the same time,it is because weight is not the only factor that affect recoil , it is influenced by many factors. One of the most important of these is the fit and shape of the rifle stock. A good recoil pad can help soften the blow to the shooter's shoulder. Gas-operated semi-automatic actions reduce apparent recoil by spreading it over a longer period of time.Many products have been marketed over the years as a means to reduce felt recoil. These include recoil pads, muzzle brakes, barrel porting, mercury and mechanical 'recoil' reducers, lengthened forcing cones (the funnel like constriction which leads from the bore of a shotgun to the main bore), the back boring of barrel (widening the bore size), pneumatic, sprung or hydraulic telescopic stock conversions, and padded cheek pieces. Some of these devices have a negligible effect (mercury recoil reducers), some are well proven (e.g. recoil pads made of modern shock absorbing materials).


NOW,we return to the original question ,why do people here want the weight of anamika reduced,especially when it is proved that weight help in dispersing felt recoil .The answer will be because we can reduce the weight of gun and still manage recoil through other means.


example: for a 100m runner stamina does not matter that much ,but once he run for a 15km marathon and if he does not have enough stamina ,till the time he reaches 10km his body ,his legs ,his lungs give up .So with lower stamina he fail to complete the race.

Now, in same way with a heavy gun in addition to other weight a soldier can complete short firefight with efficiency,but when he has to clear 100 rooms like in taj with the same heavy gun, by the time he reaches 80th room the extra weight will take its toll on him,he will become slow ,his reflexes will be reduced and many other fatigues will creep in and the result of all this will not be a mere failure to point and shoot in time but death.Hence every kilogram of weight reduced from the soldier increase his fighting ability to a great extent.So, weight should be reduced and recoil managed through other means.



I am not that much into physics,I have tried to share my knowledge which I have gained through self study.So ,there is a chance there might be discrepancy in what I have explained ,although I have tried my best.Whoever is expert in physics can chip in and offer a better explanation if he can.If anyone has understood what I have tried to explain then it's good ,if someone has not understood then very good .


You don't need to understand all the details .Just remember that when everything else is constant in a gun, then a heavy gun will have a soft recoil that is recoil spread over a longer period of time, at a lower acceleration.Where as the lighter gun will have sharp recoil, that is recoil spread over a shorter period of time, that with a higher acceleration.

In simple term the lighter gun will have more kick to it and would jump more when fired,where as a heavier gun will have a subtle kick and will not rise much when fired.Only when everything else in both the guns is similar including ammunition.

Please note that the recoil energy we calculate is just a scientific measurement.We cannot measure the actual felt recoil because of the human factor involved.There are many factors that determine how a shooter will perceive the recoil energy. Some of the factors are, but not limited to: body mass, body frame, experience, shooting position, recoil suppression equipment, small arm fit etc.

 

[Chinmoy]

Wow.

Sir,

I would have told that someone, I am in armament research & development.Research & development is a continuous process in which we have some success and some failure, and that is how we evolve,innovate ,produce new technologies.You can't expect us to be stagnant, and then one day produce the latest technology and finished product out of no where.

So,what you call wastage I call it investment in developing the technology for future ,technology demonstrator to be precise.I am not in manufacturing process that I will produce to sell ,my basic job is technology development through trial and error.



ARDE should pay these employees for production of the prototype for them,or else govt should include the production of prototype under productivity rule and make payment for the production of the prototype.


I don't think the employee are not paid to produce prototype.Imagine asking govt employee to produce something and telling them that they will have to do it for free ,as no one will pay for it.I don't think it is possible or viable,someone sure do pay for the prototype production.These payment will fall under the expenses of research and development work undertaken by ARDE even if the work is done by a third party.




Regarding your previous post pertaining to gun weight,I have prepared something.



There is a interesting relationship between gun weight and recoil.In simple term we can say that having all other factors like ammunition, system of operation etc similar and having two guns with variable weight the lighter gun will have more recoil than the heavier gun.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, this is one of the laws of newton. This means that the momentum of a rifle's reaction will exactly equal the momentum of the bullet and powder gasses ejected from the barrel. Rifle weight is a crucial factor in the recoil , rifle weight is inversely proportional to recoil. Increase the gun weight by, say, 10% and the recoil goes down by 10%.

Momentum: the quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity.Mass into velocity= momentum

Momentum is product of mass and velocity. The heavier gun has more mass, so, for the same momentum, it must have less "backwards" velocity, so less felt recoil.


When we have two same rifle with different weight but firing same ammunition the momentum acting on both of them would be equal irrespective of weight.The same momentum is transferred to the gun (same as the bullet butt in the opposite direction) but for a heavy gun, the speed is lower so the Kinetic Energy is even less.Hence it will have less felt recoil.


Recoil:
Rifle recoil is most simply explained by Newton's First and Second Laws of Motion. When a rifle is fired, a force is exerted on the bullet that projects it forward. By Newton's 1st Law, it can be inferred that and opposite force will be imposed on the rifle. From Newton's 2nd Law it can be deduced that this force can cause an acceleration (linear or angular) which results in velocity and therefore kinetic energy. Energy is also transferred into the marksman in the form of work. The total of this energy is called Recoil Energy and can be calculated.


when you have 400 ft/lbs of energy leave the front of the barrel, force equalling that 400 ft/lbs of energy is coming back into your gun and through it into your hand and then going down the earth through you.This is what makes you feel recoil.

There are two phases of recoil, moreover. Primary recoil begins momentarily after the firing pin hits the primer. Propellant rapidly creates an expansion of gas that overcomes the inertia of the bullet or shot charge and wad and accelerate them down the barrel against the force of friction and air resistance.
Secondary recoil – the effects of which are much smaller – starts when the ejecta (pellets, wad and burnt powder) leave the barrel and there is a sudden release of gas. The gun is pushed back much like a rocket.

This is the recoil which is felt by gun when it fires, when this recoil reaches the shooter it becomes perceived recoil or felt recoil.However, perceived recoil, what the shooter feels, is a highly subjective matter. In addition to gun weight, it is influenced by many factors. One of the most important of these is the fit and shape of the rifle stock. A good recoil pad can help soften the blow to the shooter's shoulder. Gas-operated semi-automatic actions reduce apparent recoil by spreading it over a longer period of time.

Perceived recoil can also be divide into two sub categories,"soft" or "sharp" recoiling, soft recoil is recoil spread over a longer period of time, that is at a lower acceleration, and sharp recoil is spread over a shorter period of time, that is with a higher acceleration.


Recoil is not only about rearwards movement, though. There is also a rotation about the axis of the shoulder. This is because the centre line of the bore/s is above the shoulder line. When this rotation effect occurs, the muzzle/s moves up and the comb of the gun may be brought into abrupt contact with the cheekbone. At the same time the butt sole may slip from the shoulder (especially if it is poorly designed). A gun with a steeply angled cheek piece will be especially uncomfortable.





Now let me explain why a heavy gun will have less recoil through basic physics.


velocity:the speed of something in a given direction.


When a bullet with mass m leaves a gun with a velocity v, the gun must have an equal-but-opposed momentum MV, where M is the mass of the gun and V is the recoil velocity, or
mv+MV=0

If there are two possible gun sizes, M1 and M2, each will have a recoil velocity V1 and V2.
If weight for M2 = 2M1,Thus M2 is heavier than M1.

Both will have equal momentum acting upon them hence

M1V1=M2V2,

M1V1=2M1V2 ,

V1 =2V2


The velocity of lighter gun M1 will be V1=2V2, velocity acting upon lighter gun will be more is proved.recoil velocity determines how abrupt the blow to the shoulder feels.So,a lighter gun will give you a more abrupt blow to your shoulder if everything else is same.

Now, when we are talking about recoil it has been made clear that velocity of a lighter gun is more hence the blow is more abrupt.But when we are talking about recoil there is one more important factor,that is kinetic energy or recoil energy.It determines how hard the blow to the shoulder feels.


kinetic energy:In physics, the kinetic energy of an object is the energy that it possesses due to its motion. It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes.


Recoil Energy is the energy that is required to push the gun in the opposite direction of the bullet. When the gun is fired, the mass of the bullet and the gasses move out of the barrel. This causes a force that pushes the gun in the opposite direction.

kinetic energy/recoil energy=0.5 into mass of the gun into square of the velocity of the gun.



It will be measured in joules.

I know kinetic energy of lighter rifle will be more than the heavy rifle .But ,I can't give you a good example for this maybe someone who is master in physics could chip in regarding this.


Now let us see some formula:



Gun velocity = (bullet mass x bullet velocity) + (powder charge mass x powder charge velocity) / Gun mass x 1000.


conversion factor of 1000 is in the equation to set the equation correct for kilograms,since rest of the mass are generally in grams while gun mass is in kilograms.




formula: Recoil energy = 0.5 x Gun mass x (Gun velocity) square.



Now using the above formula let us verify what has been explained above.

For this let us take two anamika submachine gun.

Let them be x and 2x

Let the weight of x be 3kg,let the weight of 2x be 4kg(so the 2x gun is heavierby 1kg while keeping other things constant)

Let all these be constant in the two guns:

9mm bullet mass=7grams(I have taken aproximate for convenince)


bullet/muzzle velocity= 400m /sec

powder charge mass =6.0gr

powder charge velocity 396meter per second


Gun velocity of x

Gun velocity = (bullet mass x bullet velocity) + (powder charge mass x powder charge velocity) / Gun mass x 1000.


gun velocity = (7x400)+(6x396)/3x1000

gun velocityof x = 1.72m/sec


gun velocity of 2x


keeping everything constant apart from weight which will be 4kg


gun velocity =(7x400)+(6x396)/4x1000


gun velocity of 2x = 1.29 m/s


Hence it is proved in practice that lighter gun has higher velocity ,hence recoil is more abrupt.




Recoil/kinetic energy = 0.5 x Gun mass x 9Gun velocity)square.



recoil energy of gun x= 0.5 x 3 x 1.72square

recoil energy x = 4.43 Joules


recoil energy of gun 2x= 0.5 x4 x1.29square


recoil energy 2x =3.32joules


Hence it is proved in practice that lighter gun has higher recoil/kinetic energy ,thus the recoil is hard on your shoulder when compared with heavy gun.


Now ,some people will say if such is a case why heavy guns like ak47 have more recoil than mp5 ,it's because weight is inversely proportional to recoil when everything else is constant.In case of ak 47 it fires higher power calibre with more velocity hence more recoil as compared to 9mm which is a small calibre with lower velocity.


However if we have a 9mm submachine gun weighing 10 kg the recoil will be negligible .But before we rejoice we should realize that additional weight means more burden on soldier,easy fatigue for soldiers,physical toll on soldier,compromise on his speed and mobility,compromise of his reflex shooting.

Some people might say if heavy rifle have less recoil that how the rifles are getting lighter and having reduced recoil at the same time,it is because weight is not the only factor that affect recoil , it is influenced by many factors. One of the most important of these is the fit and shape of the rifle stock. A good recoil pad can help soften the blow to the shooter's shoulder. Gas-operated semi-automatic actions reduce apparent recoil by spreading it over a longer period of time.Many products have been marketed over the years as a means to reduce felt recoil. These include recoil pads, muzzle brakes, barrel porting, mercury and mechanical 'recoil' reducers, lengthened forcing cones (the funnel like constriction which leads from the bore of a shotgun to the main bore), the back boring of barrel (widening the bore size), pneumatic, sprung or hydraulic telescopic stock conversions, and padded cheek pieces. Some of these devices have a negligible effect (mercury recoil reducers), some are well proven (e.g. recoil pads made of modern shock absorbing materials).


NOW,we return to the original question ,why do people here want the weight of anamika reduced,especially when it is proved that weight help in dispersing felt recoil .The answer will be because we can reduce the weight of gun and still manage recoil through other means.


example: for a 100m runner stamina does not matter that much ,but once he run for a 15km marathon and if he does not have enough stamina ,till the time he reaches 10km his body ,his legs ,his lungs give up .So with lower stamina he fail to complete the race.

Now, in same way with a heavy gun in addition to other weight a soldier can complete short firefight with efficiency,but when he has to clear 100 rooms like in taj with the same heavy gun, by the time he reaches 80th room the extra weight will take its toll on him,he will become slow ,his reflexes will be reduced and many other fatigues will creep in and the result of all this will not be a mere failure to point and shoot in time but death.Hence every kilogram of weight reduced from the soldier increase his fighting ability to a great extent.So, weight should be reduced and recoil managed through other means.



I am not that much into physics,I have tried to share my knowledge which I have gained through self study.So ,there is a chance there might be discrepancy in what I have explained ,although I have tried my best.Whoever is expert in physics can chip in and offer a better explanation if he can.If anyone has understood what I have tried to explain then it's good ,if someone has not understood then very good .


You don't need to understand all the details .Just remember that when everything else is constant in a gun, then a heavy gun will have a soft recoil that is recoil spread over a longer period of time, at a lower acceleration.Where as the lighter gun will have sharp recoil, that is recoil spread over a shorter period of time, that with a higher acceleration.

In simple term the lighter gun will have more kick to it and would jump more when fired,where as a heavier gun will have a subtle kick and will not rise much when fired.Only when everything else in both the guns is similar including ammunition.

Please note that the recoil energy we calculate is just a scientific measurement.We cannot measure the actual felt recoil because of the human factor involved.There are many factors that determine how a shooter will perceive the recoil energy. Some of the factors are, but not limited to: body mass, body frame, experience, shooting position, recoil suppression equipment, small arm fit etc.

Wow............. that's a nice tutorial. Thanks a lot mate.

 

[pmaitra]

So,what you call wastage I call it investment in developing the technology for future ,technology demonstrator to be precise.

Let me clarify: I am not calling it a wastage. I am all for it.

I don't think the employee are not paid to produce prototype.Imagine asking govt employee to produce something and telling them that they will have to do it for free ,as no one will pay for it.

Let me clarify: OFB employees will get paid to build what the army asked for. They will not get paid to build what the army did not ask for. If the prototype is for something that the army asked for, they will get paid. If the prototype is for something the army did not ask for, they will not get paid.

Again, as my original post says, employees have a portion of their salary calculated based on the number of rifles they produce. The other portion is fixed.

 

[jackprince]

You should have done the rigorous testing and quality control to your INSAS, ARJUN and TEJAS also...

INSAS was tested rigorously and it was improved as faults were found with extensive usage. The present production INSAS can operate in dry and dusty desert to wet dense forests to below zero temperature in Siachen. The drive for new rifle is only to keep up with the technology of today. INSAS was first introduced in 1998, and a replacement is needed.

Arjun and Tejas are perhaps the two weapon-systems in the world which went through the most grueling of testing procedures, and whatever the reasons for those being delayed, they out-match anything that are in their class.

So, your point being?

 

[jouni]

INSAS was tested rigorously and it was improved as faults were found with extensive usage. The present production INSAS can operate in dry and dusty desert to wet dense forests to below zero temperature in Siachen. The drive for new rifle is only to keep up with the technology of today. INSAS was first introduced in 1998, and a replacement is needed.

Arjun and Tejas are perhaps the two weapon-systems in the world which went through the most grueling of testing procedures, and whatever the reasons for those being delayed, they out-match anything that are in their class.

So, your point being?

My point is that our RK62 assault rifle will have a service life of 70 years. It was introduced in 1962 and will serve until 2030. That is quality control. Here in the north we believe in sustainability and quality. We have learned it, here everything grows slowly and matures to perfection...

 

[Chinmoy]

AK-47 maker in talks for JV with India to manufacture weapons

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...lks-for-jv-with-india-to-manufacture-weapons/

Russia’s Kalashnikov Concern, makers of AK-47 assault rifles, is in advanced discussions with Indian companies to manufacture certain weapons here and is open to sharing technology with local partners. Known as one of the best assault rifles of the 20th century, AK-47s are now being reportedly used more by non- state agents than national defence personnel.

For many years now, Russia has officially stopped supplying these fine automatic rifles to the country. “From the early 2015, discussions are in right earnest, even though several Indian companies have been interested to produce Kalashnikov assault rifles since 2008,” Kalashnikov Concern (formerly Izhmash) chief executive Alexey Krivoruchko told PTI in an email interview.


“We are in talks with both public as well as private companies in India. But it is a bit early to offer any specific names, as we are still at negotiations,” he said. He added that it is not engaged in any talks with the defence ministry “on our own and if necessary our Indian partner will handle those issues”.

Krivoruchko said previous discussions did not yield any results as the interested parties could not obtain the licence to manufacture small arms from the government. He said that excluding cost of utilities and manufacturing facilities, the partners together will have to cough up around USD 100 million (about Rs 650 crore) to begin production.

The quantum of investment will depend on the contribution in the form of land, manufacturing facilities, equipment and so on made by the local partner and on the target level of indigenization to be achieved, he said. On the expected scale of production, Krivoruchko said, “We are looking at least 50,000 items per year initially with and a potential of scaling up production in the future.”

Whether the company is ready to transfer technology to the partner, he said that “if the project is a success, the local partner will gain access to the most advanced small arms technologies, including high-speed chromium plating, protective coatings, manufacturing of high-strength plastic components”. On whether Kalashnikov has identified the models to begin production, Krivoruchko said Indians are primarily interested in the 5.56-mm and the 7.62-mm individual automatic weapons.

“However, we are prepared to customise weapons to meet any customer requirements and expand the range of products.”

 

[jackprince]

My point is that our RK62 assault rifle will have a service life of 70 years. It was introduced in 1962 and will serve until 2030. That is quality control. Here in the north we believe in sustainability and quality. We have learned it, here everything grows slowly and matures to perfection...

Indian Army has a need for Multi-Cal rifle, hence the replacement is required as when INSAS was designed multical rifles were only a concept then. Your army is not at a need for multical. Also, your puny little insignificant army can do without modernisation as they live happily under the sense of protection (whether wellplaced or misplaced only time will tell) of NATO. We only have ourselves to rely on and hence need upgradation in defence to keep up with changing time. Further, apparantly you don't know that you army has decided to 'upgrade' RK62 in RK62M format which will be based on IMI Galil. So, except the shared name it will also be a very different rifle. If keeping the name running was the issue, we could easily carry INSAS name for 100 years without much difficulty. But we don't care about carrying the name.

 

[jouni]

Indian Army has a need for Multi-Cal rifle, hence the replacement is required as when INSAS was designed multical rifles were only a concept then. Your army is not at a need for multical. Also, your puny little insignificant army can do without modernisation as they live happily under the sense of protection (whether wellplaced or misplaced only time will tell) of NATO. We only have ourselves to rely on and hence need upgradation in defence to keep up with changing time. Further, apparantly you don't know that you army has decided to 'upgrade' RK62 in RK62M format which will be based on IMI Galil. So, except the shared name it will also be a very different rifle. If keeping the name running was the issue, we could easily carry INSAS name for 100 years without much difficulty. But we don't care about carrying the name.

Get your facts right, please. IMI Galil is based on RK62, not the other way round. The AR in the picture IS RK62 M, they are the old rifles with night scope rails and picatinny for flashlight. So adding these to 50 year old RK62 and it becomes RK62 M. THAT is quality.

Regarding India's sovereignty, I have seen you with teary eyes remembering how Soviet Union saved you from the big bad US...

 

[jackprince]

Get your facts right, please. IMI Galil is based on RK62, not the other way round. The AR in the picture IS RK62 M, they are the old rifles with night scope rails and picatinny for flashlight. So adding these to 50 year old RK62 and it becomes RK62 M. THAT is quality.

Regarding India's sovereignty, I have seen you with teary eyes remembering how Soviet Union saved you from the big bad US...

Yup, I was wrong and it was other way around. But then RK62 in itself is based on AK47, when INSAS is a completely new design. What's so great about Finnish developing RK62 when you actually copied it? Anyway, dumbsh#t Indian army will update its weaponary because it has the ability to change with time and foresight for that too. If your army doesn't have the ability or foresight, that is not something to boast about. Also, Multical rifles are particularly an advantage for a large army with requirement to fight in multiple scenarios and theatres, where the multical rifles give an edge in the way of easier logistics and quick deployment. But then how would you understand given how puny your armed forces are and how except for so called training and wargames your army has not fired a single shot in over 70 years in anger? NATO NATO NATO is the mantra for you guys. It is hillarious and pathetic that a Finnish is boasting about their military.

And, yes, in 1971 USSR helped us by deterring US and British battlegroups from attacking us and we are grateful for it, and acknowledge it and will acknowledge it to eternity. So? Is acknowledging an act of friendship has become so cliche in Finland that means something to be ashamed of? Are you a nation of ingrates?

Since 1971 we have come a loooong way and even more than one battlegroup of US navy can hardly seriusly threaten us. As a matter of fact, we have come to a place that where NONE can threaten our sovereignty without thinking 100 times any more, be it land, air or sea. And we have built the ability and the promise to destroy any adversary who may think they can attack us. So we built on our weakness and today we are a force who does not fear anybody. Now, what is the status of Finnish armed forces? Going by your posts, they still live in the glory of a war fought 70 years ago and for today's and future danger depends on their status of being a lapdog of US.

Grow some balls and have some self-reapect first, then come and comment on our sovereignty.

 

[jouni]

Yup, I was wrong and it was other way around. But then RK62 in itself is based on AK47, when INSAS is a completely new design. What's so great about Finnish developing RK62 when you actually copied it? Anyway, dumbsh#t Indian army will update its weaponary because it has the ability to change with time and foresight for that too. If your army doesn't have the ability or foresight, that is not something to boast about. Also, Multical rifles are particularly an advantage for a large army with requirement to fight in multiple scenarios and theatres, where the multical rifles give an edge in the way of easier logistics and quick deployment. But then how would you understand given how puny your armed forces are and how except for so called training and wargames your army has not fired a single shot in over 70 years in anger? NATO NATO NATO is the mantra for you guys. It is hillarious and pathetic that a Finnish is boasting about their military.

And, yes, in 1971 USSR helped us by deterring US and British battlegroups from attacking us and we are grateful for it, and acknowledge it and will acknowledge it to eternity. So? Is acknowledging an act of friendship has become so cliche in Finland that means something to be ashamed of? Are you a nation of ingrates?

Since 1971 we have come a loooong way and even more than one battlegroup of US navy can hardly seriusly threaten us. As a matter of fact, we have come to a place that where NONE can threaten our sovereignty without thinking 100 times any more, be it land, air or sea. And we have built the ability and the promise to destroy any adversary who may think they can attack us. So we built on our weakness and today we are a force who does not fear anybody. Now, what is the status of Finnish armed forces? Going by your posts, they still live in the glory of a war fought 70 years ago and for today's and future danger depends on their status of being a lapdog of US.

Grow some balls and have some self-reapect first, then come and comment on our sovereignty.

Our Army saved our independence 70 years ago. Because of that we are now one of the most prosperous and developed countries of the world.

If our Army did not stop Red Army at '39 and '44 we would now be a poverished undeveloped corrupt country like Russia, Belarus, Ukraine etc.

Our Army has developed with times and can stop any enemy if needed also today.

Indian Army is developed, but India is still one of the poorest countries in the world, like it has been for the last centuries. No change there...

 

[Chris Jude]

Dragunov SVD59 which is used is quite good too.

Has the been any complaints about it?

Initially, we had ammunition shortage, but not so now.

So, why change?

I believe that unless one cannot do his task, he should not clamour for anything new or because someone else has it.

How are the other sniper rifles any better than what we have?

It is the man behind the machine who makes the difference.

A bad carpenter blames his tools

Pakistan had Pattons, the latest in the US inventory, and yet at Asal Uttar, they left behind a graveyard of Pattons created by Indian Army's WWII Shermans.

I am a great adherent of this quote of Rumsfeld


Because if Aunty had gonads, then she would be Uncle! (An oft repeated saying I experienced being said when I was in service).

That was an apt quote and reply Sir!

 

[aliyah]

all nosence this is. model ek bhi world class nah hai.

we had tried many so called world class stuff's but they dont work in -50° siachin and +50° in sandy desert . near abut all ur so called world class failed in preliminary tests