Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

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Johny_Baba

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It is high time we realize the value of perception management. R&AW, IA, GoI all have perception/propaganda management cells, but none utilize it as we know of. To be frank, even ISI utilizes media to boast of non-existent victories or achieved failures. It is one of the major requisite to be a super-power.
Take the below case for example, the media has already downplayed India, and how many average/ordinary people would know that it was India that won the stand-off and it was Cheena that backed off?

The big difference between Indian and Porki/Chini propaganda machines is that in India every little act gets politicized while there i haven't seen this thing (I may be wrong,though.I rarely give shit to their propaganda).

For example,It's a victory for combined efforts of Indians+Bhutanese people and thier Armed Forces that Chini paper snake finally retaliating from a disputed land,and here Political Parties have started 'cooking KHICHADI' on this gain,KHANgress is saying that because of Pappu meeting with Chini Ambassadors this arrangements happened and we all know how BJP is thumping Modi's chest for this.

 
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square

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isn't the dokhlam was actually helping us :

1) last 72 days , the nathula pass was close.....sikkim people start shifting towards own markets for their needs....

2) less chinese products were imported , oppo vivo sales downs 33% in july......people start looking for alternatives...

3) sudden surge in urgency was felt in defence related issues ...

4) awereness of cyber security was rising ,..

5) nations are on close watch on india & china , every news item was monitered , chinese media propoganda was brust like never before...

6) world wide people start digging news items about china .....chinese were downgraded ....

isn't we were winning the battle , dokhlam making a dent on chinese face everyday , everywhere.......
stretegic point of view , it was going in our faver......

with winter approching , anyhow chinese going to withdraw , why we even agree on allowing them to patrol , patrol means coming upto areas which they claims......
if they petrol , road will natually build , are we going to start it all over again in next year ?........
 

varun9509

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with winter approching , anyhow chinese going to withdraw , why we even agree on allowing them to patrol , patrol means coming upto areas which they claims......
if they petrol , road will natually build , are we going to start it all over again in next year ?........
Initial concern was road building, which has stopped. Doklam is not Indian region, its a disputed territory between Bhutan and China, its up to Bhutan now to resolve this issue. Patrolling and all will continue in Doklam as China also claims it, we cannot indulge in that. But if done anything in disputed region unilaterly, that is the issue of concern, and we will take action against it. That is the message we sent with this standoff.

Sent from my YU5510 using Tapatalk
 
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Vinod DX9

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Dolam or Doklam issue, the settlement what I could understand is as follows...
1) Chinese patrolling was there always, neither Bhutan nor India raise voice against that. The problem arose as China started illegal construction there.
2) Both India and Chinese forces were there... For months Chinese threatened India of military action, tried to woo Bhutan, directly engaged with Indians in hand to hand combat but all in vein... Then this negotiation
3) According to negotiation....
i) China will stop illegal construction
ii) Chinese troops will withdraw
iii) Indian troops will also be withdrawn as there left no reason to worry
iv) possibly Chinese patrol will be continued as before

Want to know if my assessments are right
 

Screambowl

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isn't the dokhlam was actually helping us :

1) last 72 days , the nathula pass was close.....sikkim people start shifting towards own markets for their needs....

2) less chinese products were imported , oppo vivo sales downs 33% in july......people start looking for alternatives...

3) sudden surge in urgency was felt in defence related issues ...

4) awereness of cyber security was rising ,..

5) nations are on close watch on india & china , every news item was monitered , chinese media propoganda was brust like never before...

6) world wide people start digging news items about china .....chinese were downgraded ....

isn't we were winning the battle , dokhlam making a dent on chinese face everyday , everywhere.......
stretegic point of view , it was going in our faver......

with winter approching , anyhow chinese going to withdraw , why we even agree on allowing them to patrol , patrol means coming upto areas which they claims......
if they petrol , road will natually build , are we going to start it all over again in next year ?........

Valid points.... India started utilizing it's potential..
rivalry is by the way not yet over.....
......................................................
 

HindaviSwarajya

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China has a habbit of back stabbing. What if they slowly construct road few months down the line. We need few forces stationed there permanently.
 

ezsasa

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Here's a version of events leading upto stalemate being broken....
cross posting, but i think this is relevant to both threads...

=======
Hamburg to Xiamen: The Doklam breakthrough was achieved Bric by Bric

ThePrint reveals how a breakthrough in talks between India and China were achieved after 10 weeks of negotiations.

Pranab Dhal Samanta

Ten weeks of intense negotiations on three independent bilateral tracks, building on a thin line of convergence, is how the Doklam stand-off was ended.

For the record, Indian troops moved out first, but only after it became clear that China was not going back to road building either. ThePrint has learnt that three simultaneous conversations were on at all times: between India and China, India and Bhutan and between China and Bhutan.

A matrix for negotiations was drawn up, where it was decided that all points of contention will be discussed one-by-one.

But how did matters reach the negotiating table in the first place?

It all started in Hamburg where Prime Minister Narendra Modi met Chinese President Xi Jinping at the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) informal meet on the margins of the G-20 Summit. And believe it or not, even this India story has a Pakistani coincidence to it.

Modi was the last to shake hands with the Chinese President at the informal Hamburg meet in the first week of July. That was because the rest of the leaders at the meet were presidents. Being the only prime minister, by protocol, Modi would have to be the last.


Modi and Xi meeting on the sidelines of the G20 summit. Source: PIB
This delay was important because India had consciously decided to take a last-minute call on whether or not to raise the Doklam issue with Xi at Hamburg. The decision was to be made on the basis of a careful reading of the political build-up until that precise moment.

India had tried this open-ended approach for the first time just a month with Pakistan at the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation meet at Asthana.

The decision to have a short exchange with Pakistan PM Nawaz Sharif was taken at the last minute, based precisely on how the build-up happened. The Indian side came out feeling that this was a good way to deal with politically sensitive issues.

Dealing with Xi in Hamburg on Doklam fit this definition. So, when the PM shook Xi’s hand, insiders told ThePrint, he raised the issue almost soon after they were done with pleasantries. Modi told Xi that a solution ought to be found soon, reminding him of their conversation at the SCO, where both leaders had agreed to not let differences turn into disputes.

Those familiar with the details of the exchange said that the Chinese President was at first quiet, and then said that officials on both sides should talk.

And so, the talks started. All the talks took place through established diplomatic channels, which a source said, never went cold despite all the rhetoric from the Chinese side.

The negotiations, however, were tough and were on three broad lines:

  • China questioned India’s sovereignty and brought up the first point of contest by way of its claim through the 1890 agreement on Sikkim. India put its understanding of history on table. There was a disagreement to the point and ended in deadlock.
  • India then brought up the 2012 understanding between the Special Representatives that the trijunction would be resolved through an agreement between all three stakeholders – India, China and Bhutan. Beijing contested New Delhi’s interpretation. There was another deadlock.
  • The third issue on the table was the disengagement and troop withdrawal from Doklam. Here there was some convergence, except that India wanted to be assured that no road building would take place. China wanted India to withdraw first without any pre-condition
Bhutan, on the other hand, had made it clear to China that it saw the road building activity as a transgression on Bhutanese sovereignty. Sources told ThePrint that the Bhutanese side at all times let its Chinese interlocutors know that such activity was not acceptable, especially in territory which was disputed.

To India, the message from Bhutan was equally clear: resolve this peacefully without much public outrage.


Members of a Chinese military honor guard. Source: Wikimedia Commons
In this backdrop, sources said, India and China agreed to sidestep the first two points of contention and decided to focus on the disengagement at Doklam.

With Bhutan making its position on road building clear to China and the Chinese bulldozers having been moved out, India reached an assessment that no road building was going to take place for now.

China’s bigger objective to make the BRICS Summit in Xiamen in the first week of September a grand success provided to be the best diplomatic window to seal an understanding.

Beijing wanted a willing New Delhi at the table at Xiamen. India, on its part, was now willing to withdraw first from Doklam, confident that no road building was possible.

So, through a mutually agreed plan, India took the first step and withdrew its troops on Monday, thus bringing to end a 70-day stalemate.

http://theprint.in/2017/08/28/hamburg-xiamen-doklam-breakthrough-achieved-bric-bric/
 

dumdumdum

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Am I wrong if I say that this is probably the first time when India planted its foot outside its own boundary & negotiated from that position. In almost all previous stand offs situation was reverse? Is this not a huge statement of intent?
Just like Surgical Strikes. one might debate whether they actually happened earlier or not, fact that we acknowledged them on world stage is a signal to world of more assertive India.
 

TheSeeker

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Well done India. Now is the time to get ready for next chineses overture which General Rawat has already said few days back. We have drawn the redline. If china crosses it again, both side will be prepared for war.

Here's a version of events leading upto stalemate being broken....
cross posting, but i think this is relevant to both threads...

=======
Hamburg to Xiamen: The Doklam breakthrough was achieved Bric by Bric

ThePrint reveals how a breakthrough in talks between India and China were achieved after 10 weeks of negotiations.

Pranab Dhal Samanta

Ten weeks of intense negotiations on three independent bilateral tracks, building on a thin line of convergence, is how the Doklam stand-off was ended.

For the record, Indian troops moved out first, but only after it became clear that China was not going back to road building either. ThePrint has learnt that three simultaneous conversations were on at all times: between India and China, India and Bhutan and between China and Bhutan.

A matrix for negotiations was drawn up, where it was decided that all points of contention will be discussed one-by-one.

But how did matters reach the negotiating table in the first place?

It all started in Hamburg where Prime Minister Narendra Modi met Chinese President Xi Jinping at the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) informal meet on the margins of the G-20 Summit. And believe it or not, even this India story has a Pakistani coincidence to it.

Modi was the last to shake hands with the Chinese President at the informal Hamburg meet in the first week of July. That was because the rest of the leaders at the meet were presidents. Being the only prime minister, by protocol, Modi would have to be the last.


Modi and Xi meeting on the sidelines of the G20 summit. Source: PIB
This delay was important because India had consciously decided to take a last-minute call on whether or not to raise the Doklam issue with Xi at Hamburg. The decision was to be made on the basis of a careful reading of the political build-up until that precise moment.

India had tried this open-ended approach for the first time just a month with Pakistan at the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation meet at Asthana.

The decision to have a short exchange with Pakistan PM Nawaz Sharif was taken at the last minute, based precisely on how the build-up happened. The Indian side came out feeling that this was a good way to deal with politically sensitive issues.

Dealing with Xi in Hamburg on Doklam fit this definition. So, when the PM shook Xi’s hand, insiders told ThePrint, he raised the issue almost soon after they were done with pleasantries. Modi told Xi that a solution ought to be found soon, reminding him of their conversation at the SCO, where both leaders had agreed to not let differences turn into disputes.

Those familiar with the details of the exchange said that the Chinese President was at first quiet, and then said that officials on both sides should talk.

And so, the talks started. All the talks took place through established diplomatic channels, which a source said, never went cold despite all the rhetoric from the Chinese side.

The negotiations, however, were tough and were on three broad lines:

  • China questioned India’s sovereignty and brought up the first point of contest by way of its claim through the 1890 agreement on Sikkim. India put its understanding of history on table. There was a disagreement to the point and ended in deadlock.
  • India then brought up the 2012 understanding between the Special Representatives that the trijunction would be resolved through an agreement between all three stakeholders – India, China and Bhutan. Beijing contested New Delhi’s interpretation. There was another deadlock.
  • The third issue on the table was the disengagement and troop withdrawal from Doklam. Here there was some convergence, except that India wanted to be assured that no road building would take place. China wanted India to withdraw first without any pre-condition
Bhutan, on the other hand, had made it clear to China that it saw the road building activity as a transgression on Bhutanese sovereignty. Sources told ThePrint that the Bhutanese side at all times let its Chinese interlocutors know that such activity was not acceptable, especially in territory which was disputed.

To India, the message from Bhutan was equally clear: resolve this peacefully without much public outrage.


Members of a Chinese military honor guard. Source: Wikimedia Commons
In this backdrop, sources said, India and China agreed to sidestep the first two points of contention and decided to focus on the disengagement at Doklam.

With Bhutan making its position on road building clear to China and the Chinese bulldozers having been moved out, India reached an assessment that no road building was going to take place for now.

China’s bigger objective to make the BRICS Summit in Xiamen in the first week of September a grand success provided to be the best diplomatic window to seal an understanding.

Beijing wanted a willing New Delhi at the table at Xiamen. India, on its part, was now willing to withdraw first from Doklam, confident that no road building was possible.

So, through a mutually agreed plan, India took the first step and withdrew its troops on Monday, thus bringing to end a 70-day stalemate.

http://theprint.in/2017/08/28/hamburg-xiamen-doklam-breakthrough-achieved-bric-bric/
 

sayareakd

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72 days of Chinese funny torture and no one died, it was resolved. In the end Chinese looked stupid, they should not have altered status quo. Now at least for this year they wont do anything funny. In the mean time start massive modernisation drive.

Give tender to Baba Kalyani to make as many 155 as possible, on truck, and ultra light.
 

ezsasa

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Here's a version of events leading upto stalemate being broken....
cross posting, but i think this is relevant to both threads...

=======
Hamburg to Xiamen: The Doklam breakthrough was achieved Bric by Bric

ThePrint reveals how a breakthrough in talks between India and China were achieved after 10 weeks of negotiations.

Pranab Dhal Samanta

Ten weeks of intense negotiations on three independent bilateral tracks, building on a thin line of convergence, is how the Doklam stand-off was ended.

For the record, Indian troops moved out first, but only after it became clear that China was not going back to road building either. ThePrint has learnt that three simultaneous conversations were on at all times: between India and China, India and Bhutan and between China and Bhutan.

A matrix for negotiations was drawn up, where it was decided that all points of contention will be discussed one-by-one.

But how did matters reach the negotiating table in the first place?

It all started in Hamburg where Prime Minister Narendra Modi met Chinese President Xi Jinping at the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) informal meet on the margins of the G-20 Summit. And believe it or not, even this India story has a Pakistani coincidence to it.

Modi was the last to shake hands with the Chinese President at the informal Hamburg meet in the first week of July. That was because the rest of the leaders at the meet were presidents. Being the only prime minister, by protocol, Modi would have to be the last.


Modi and Xi meeting on the sidelines of the G20 summit. Source: PIB
This delay was important because India had consciously decided to take a last-minute call on whether or not to raise the Doklam issue with Xi at Hamburg. The decision was to be made on the basis of a careful reading of the political build-up until that precise moment.

India had tried this open-ended approach for the first time just a month with Pakistan at the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation meet at Asthana.

The decision to have a short exchange with Pakistan PM Nawaz Sharif was taken at the last minute, based precisely on how the build-up happened. The Indian side came out feeling that this was a good way to deal with politically sensitive issues.

Dealing with Xi in Hamburg on Doklam fit this definition. So, when the PM shook Xi’s hand, insiders told ThePrint, he raised the issue almost soon after they were done with pleasantries. Modi told Xi that a solution ought to be found soon, reminding him of their conversation at the SCO, where both leaders had agreed to not let differences turn into disputes.

Those familiar with the details of the exchange said that the Chinese President was at first quiet, and then said that officials on both sides should talk.

And so, the talks started. All the talks took place through established diplomatic channels, which a source said, never went cold despite all the rhetoric from the Chinese side.

The negotiations, however, were tough and were on three broad lines:

  • China questioned India’s sovereignty and brought up the first point of contest by way of its claim through the 1890 agreement on Sikkim. India put its understanding of history on table. There was a disagreement to the point and ended in deadlock.
  • India then brought up the 2012 understanding between the Special Representatives that the trijunction would be resolved through an agreement between all three stakeholders – India, China and Bhutan. Beijing contested New Delhi’s interpretation. There was another deadlock.
  • The third issue on the table was the disengagement and troop withdrawal from Doklam. Here there was some convergence, except that India wanted to be assured that no road building would take place. China wanted India to withdraw first without any pre-condition
Bhutan, on the other hand, had made it clear to China that it saw the road building activity as a transgression on Bhutanese sovereignty. Sources told ThePrint that the Bhutanese side at all times let its Chinese interlocutors know that such activity was not acceptable, especially in territory which was disputed.

To India, the message from Bhutan was equally clear: resolve this peacefully without much public outrage.


Members of a Chinese military honor guard. Source: Wikimedia Commons
In this backdrop, sources said, India and China agreed to sidestep the first two points of contention and decided to focus on the disengagement at Doklam.

With Bhutan making its position on road building clear to China and the Chinese bulldozers having been moved out, India reached an assessment that no road building was going to take place for now.

China’s bigger objective to make the BRICS Summit in Xiamen in the first week of September a grand success provided to be the best diplomatic window to seal an understanding.

Beijing wanted a willing New Delhi at the table at Xiamen. India, on its part, was now willing to withdraw first from Doklam, confident that no road building was possible.

So, through a mutually agreed plan, India took the first step and withdrew its troops on Monday, thus bringing to end a 70-day stalemate.

http://theprint.in/2017/08/28/hamburg-xiamen-doklam-breakthrough-achieved-bric-bric/
This method of negotiation has been repeated by modi govt several times in the past i.e leaving contentious issues and moving ahead with solvable issues, last observed was during modi's visit to trump (they left out issues like VISA). can't really say whose brains are behind this method, maybe modi maybe sushma swaraj or maybe doval or maybe foreign secretary jai shankar.

i think it is safe to speculate that probably talks were also happening with pakistan inspite of terror attacks, maybe that's why nawaz sharif got ousted. that would make it second time he got ousted because of india..
 

Prashant12

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Indian troops can swiftly intervene if China attempts to build road at Doklam again

NEW DELHI: Indian troops are now once again sitting pretty in a militarily advantageous position at their Doka La outpost on the Sikkim border, having almost completed their withdrawal from the Doklam face-off site by Monday evening.

From the Doka La post, the Indian soldiers will continue to keep a hawk-eye on the Doklam bowl - which is Bhutanese territory but claimed by China - less than 500 meters away down the ridge slope.

"Our soldiers sit on the top, hold the ridge and can swiftly intervene, as they pro-actively did in mid-June, if the People's Liberation Army once again tries to unilaterally change the status quo by constructing a road near the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction," said a source.

The defence establishment here believes it has unequivocally proved its point to China that it will not allow the PLA to extend its motorable track towards the Jampheri (Zomplri) Ridge, which is "militarily very sensitive" because it overlooks India's vulnerable Siliguri corridor or the "Chicken's Neck" area.

It was on June 16 that Indian soldiers had come down from Doka La to physically prevent Chinese troops, armed with heavy earth-moving equipment, from constructing the road in the Doklam area, which is disputed between Beijing and Thimphu.

Earlier, on June 5/6, Chinese troops had destroyed two of the old unmanned "self-help bunkers" constructed ahead of the watershed at Doklam by the Indian Army to strengthen its defences long ago.

Despite China's belligerent rhetoric, which was backed by PLA moving at least three divisions (15,000 soldiers each) as well as armoured, artillery and air defence brigades towards southern Tibet, India quietly stood its ground without making jingoistic noises for over 70 days.

Apart from the 350 soldiers at the actual face-off site over 11,000-feet in altitude, India also operationally activated its three infantry mountain divisions as well as IAF airbases in the region. To underline its resolve, another 3,000 soldiers were moved forward by early-July to reinforce the over 6,000 soldiers already deployed in eastern and north-eastern Sikkim, as was then reported by TOI.
"It paid off. Neither China, nor India wanted war. We have no problems with China sending patrols to the area, like it has been doing for years. While Chinese troops frequently patrol till the Torsa Nala, they even go up till the Bhutanese Army's Chela post once in three-four years," said a source.
But what irked India this time was China's attempt to extend the road towards the Jampheri Ridge and usurp the Doklam bowl to add strategic depth to its narrow Chumbi Valley, which juts in between Sikkim and Bhutan.
"India came to Bhutan's aid after China tried to bully the small country into submission despite 24 rounds of talks on the disputed territories between them since the mid-1980s," said the source.
"China should have also respected the agreement between the Indian and Chinese special representatives in 2012 that the tri-junction boundary points will be finalized in consultation with Bhutan," he said.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...oklam-again/articleshow/60264898.cms?from=mdr
 

IndianHawk

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More importantly this sets up a precedence for Indian venture into Chinese Territory. Next time chinese act up on any part of border we can swiftly enter their territory. They will cry again but we know they can't do shit in the end.

For at least 3-4 months we can enjoy Chinese hospitality into their territory while chinese will have to keep negotiation on.

It's also a tip for all nations which have disputes with china that stop listening to Chinese rhetoric just move forces on the ground and see the lizard trembling.

I enjoyed Chinese bitching day and night hope we do something again to rattle the chinkies.
 
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