Singh's Japan stop was first step to shoring up regional security

[roma]

Well, I have a bad news for you:
Nehru tried? Yes, by his "forward policy", that is realy friendly attitude.

we also have some news for you - nothing new and not necessarily bad - friendship with dragons whatever their reptilic form i.e. whether prc or roc , is OUT of the question since '62 - diplomatic smiling is ok though - but it really dont mean a thing.

as for his forward policy - they were UNARMED or very LIGHTLY ARMED soldiers armed against occasional bandit and not for war - and your great brave PLA killed basically unarmed soldiers stationed there as a boundary observer.

winning a war is different from betraying a friend and killing their unprepared soldiers eh ?

 

[pmaitra]

as for his forward policy - they were UNARMED or very LIGHTLY ARMED soldiers armed against occasional bandit and not for war - and your great brave PLA killed basically unarmed soldiers stationed there as a boundary observer.

Not quite.

Soldiers armed with Lee-Enfield rifles are armed. The problem is not with forward policy, but with not preparing well enough for years ahead for an escalation which could be a consequence of this forward policy. Escalation did happen, but we could not withstand the PLA because we simply did not prepare for a PLA assault.

Either we shouldn't have adopted a forward policy or first should have prepared well and then adopted a forward policy. In fact, India should have started preparing the moment we started accepting Tibetan refugees. We also planned to send (and probably did) armed Tibetan fighters to counter the PLA in Tibet. We were like a weak and skinny guy trying to needle a muscular body builder.

Your claim that our soldiers were there to fight bandits is, pardon my French, simply ridiculous.

 

[no smoking]

we also have some news for you - nothing new and not necessarily bad - friendship with dragons whatever their reptilic form i.e. whether prc or roc , is OUT of the question since '62 - diplomatic smiling is ok though - but it really dont mean a thing.

I don't have any problem that India feels uncomfortable about this issue. Just don't play as being innocent.

as for his forward policy - they were UNARMED or very LIGHTLY ARMED soldiers armed against occasional bandit and not for war - and your great brave PLA killed basically unarmed soldiers stationed there as a boundary observer.

Unarmed or very lightly armed soldiers? They are soldiers who were sent there to throw chinese out. Boundary observer? Please, give me a break.

winning a war is different from betraying a friend and killing their unprepared soldiers eh ?

Betraying a friend? When Nehru hosted Tibetans and provided military trainning to them, did he have this so called 'friend' in mind?
Unprepared Soldiers? Getting your soldiers prepared is not our responsibility.

 

[niharjhatn]

Unarmed or very lightly armed soldiers? They are soldiers who were sent there to throw chinese out. Boundary observer? Please, give me a break.

Betraying a friend? When Nehru hosted Tibetans and provided military trainning to them, did he have this so called 'friend' in mind?
Unprepared Soldiers? Getting your soldiers prepared is not our responsibility.

Of course there will be soldiers stationed there - it is part of India after all!

Furthermore, although India officially recognises Tibet as pert of China, such as claim is largely born out of weakness, and an attempt (a futile one at that) at maintaining the status quo. Ultimately, India recognizes Tibet as a land for the Tibetans, hence, despite continual remonstrance by the CCP, they still keep a significant number of Tibetan refugees.

Your comments suggest that it was India that invaded Tibet and attacked China. India itself has zero designs over Tibet, and were it not for CCP and PLA belligerence, would gladly hand Tibet back to its righteous owners and peacefully and successfully resolve any issue regarding the daft concept of "South Tibet".

 

[The Messiah]

chicoms can blow me.

We must have stronger ties with every country that isn't a chinese petdog.

We must arm vietnam with latest missiles and anti-air defenses.

 

[niharjhatn]

Well, I have a bad news for you:

There is no chinese gov would give Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley back, no matter it is called PRC, RPC or ROC. It is a political suicid for any chinese gov with such a decision because most of chinese would condemn it. The best solution is we settle our border on the current LOC: we both give the claim on each other's controlling areas.

But I think most of indians would say no to this.

Nehru tried? Yes, by his "forward policy", that is realy friendly attitude.

I have spoken to many 'normal' Chinese citizens, and whilst we may differ on the Tibet issue, not one of them told me that they supported CCP claims on Indian territory. Whether or not they were lying to my face, I don't know, but many of them mentioned that they are simply indifferent about the issue. Such claims by the CCP are ambivalent, and in fact, rather childish.

The only government that MAY seek a meaningful end to this thorn of an issue is one that TRULY represents the Chinese people, and not deaf radicals that have no appreciation of the situation or its history.

BTW, nehru's 'forward policy' was no enroachment of Chinese territory - remember it was the Chinese that initially invaded Tibet, and was simply a way of attempting to ward off the Chinese from entering Indian territory without a major incident...and, well, that worked well!

 

[roma]

Not quite.

Soldiers armed with Lee-Enfield rifles are armed. The problem is not with forward policy, but with not preparing well enough for years ahead for an escalation which could be a consequence of this forward policy. Escalation did happen, but we could not withstand the PLA because we simply did not prepare for a PLA assault.

Either we shouldn't have adopted a forward policy or first should have prepared well and then adopted a forward policy. In fact, India should have started preparing the moment we started accepting Tibetan refugees. We also planned to send (and probably did) armed Tibetan fighters to counter the PLA in Tibet. We were like a weak and skinny guy trying to needle a muscular body builder.

Your claim that our soldiers were there to fight bandits is, pardon my French, simply ridiculous.

hey hey hey ! youre taking me out of context ok ?

the context of my reply was that the mbience was that china WAS considered to be a friend and therefore you dont go fully armed and ready for war .

the soldiers were comparatively lightly armed albeit enfield - that was just for their personal protect and not for war !

the soldiers did post border flags and as such were border observers

please do not read me out of context - then make a scenario out of it .

 

[pmaitra]

hey hey hey ! youre taking me out of context ok ?

the context of my reply was that the mbience was that china WAS considered to be a friend and therefore you dont go fully armed and ready for war .

the soldiers were comparatively lightly armed albeit enfield - that was just for their personal protect and not for war !

the soldiers did post border flags and as such were border observers

please do not read me out of context - then make a scenario out of it .

Your premise that there was an ambience of friendship is in itself flawed. Hence, your context is invalid, if you want to stick to the diplomatic niceties and ignore all the back stage intelligence activities that were going on.

Go through these links:
The CIA's Secret War in Tibet
The CIA Circus: Tibet's Forgotten Army | Friends of Tibet (INDIA) Data-Base
India's Experience of Covert Action and Need for Action Against Pakistan

Excerpt from the last link:

India, in the late 50s and 60s with the help of the CIA aided the Tibetanrebellion, providing training facilities in India . The 1962 border war withChina led to the establishment of several organisations that are todayunder the Cabinet Secretariat, the Special Frontier Force (Establishment 22at Chakrata) and Special Services Bureau. Additionally, a group was raisedwith the objective of carrying out aerial reconnaissance of China and Tibet, the Aviation Research Centre (ARC). One source suggests that atCharbatia in December 1964 a U-2 aircraft was deployed for operationsover Tibet . The Tibet operation continued till the early 60s when the CIA,withdrew its operations on Indian soil and moved to Nepal.

If you want to continue to believe in stories involving 'friendship' and 'bandits', by all means do so. AFAIAC, these are fairy tales.

 

[no smoking]

I have spoken to many 'normal' Chinese citizens, and whilst we may differ on the Tibet issue, not one of them told me that they supported CCP claims on Indian territory. Whether or not they were lying to my face, I don't know, but many of them mentioned that they are simply indifferent about the issue. Such claims by the CCP are ambivalent, and in fact, rather childish.

Well, it looks like I, as a chinese, has different experience. What you can expect a chinese to say to you? F word?

To myself, both gov's claim are childish. As I always said, we should settle it along the current LOC.

The only government that MAY seek a meaningful end to this thorn of an issue is one that TRULY represents the Chinese people, and not deaf radicals that have no appreciation of the situation or its history.

Ok, now you make me laugh. Whether or not CCP truely represents chinese is decided by Chinese not its relationship with india.

BTW, nehru's 'forward policy' was no enroachment of Chinese territory

So,
territory occupied by chinese doesn't belong to china,
territory claimed by chinese doesn't belong to china,
territory occpupied by india belongs to india,
territory claimed by india belongs to india.
Fair enough.

 

[amoy]

I don't think Sino-Indian border dispute is a big deal. All those so-called 'forward policy' or '1962 betrayal' were bygones. Anyway both have enjoyed 'cold peace' for so many years despite alleged occasional 'incursions' (anyway there's no mutually accepted border). Even without the feud btwn us, little difference would have been made in India's foreign policies. India would still do whatever she has to do, be it the US, Vietnam, Japan or Pakistan, not necessarily aiming at 'encircling' China. Without a China factor taken into account, India would have still needed technology and FDI from the US and Japan.

As for some posters claiming Tibetans not willing to be part of China, that might have been true if "Tibetans" referred to aristocrats /Kalon / Lama who probably still think of Tibet as their "Paradise Lost". Even HH Dalai Lama himself admits Tibet be part of China. Dalai Lama life - The Dalai Lama and Mao exchanging warm smiles | Western Shugden Society (WSS) BTW did u ever bother to ask Kashimiri or Bodo or Naga who're fighting to date for their consent to be part of India?

 

[pmaitra]

^^

Upping the ante, aren't you?

Bodo, Naga et al. notwithstanding, Indians' concern is more with the occupation of Aksai Chin and Shaksgam; and Tibet is not quite a priority right now, especially since India does recognise Tibet as part of PRC. So, you should save the Bodo, Naga et al. for discussions that concern the restive provinces of PRC, such as Tibet and East Turkestan.

 

[amoy]

Who upping the ante? Do u really think China covet Bodoland or Nagaland ?? all those skeletons in your cupboard?

There're already ULFA, or Mujahideens fighting their ways.

U probably feel Chinese are not aware what's going on in India.

When u guys spend much time hyping Tibet or E. Turkestan as if they were your bargaining chips, they're actually zilch in the equation. Wake up!

 

[pmaitra]

Who upping the ante? Do u really think China covet Bodoland or Nagaland ?? all those skeletons in your cupboard?

There're already ULFA, or Mujahideens fighting their ways.

U probably feel Chinese are not aware what's going on in India.

When u guys spend much time hyping Tibet or E. Turkestan as if they were your bargaining chips, they're actually zilch in the equation. Wake up!

Your points are non sequiturs, because, we drifted from India-PRC-Japan relations to India-PRC border dispute and now to separatist provinces or movements in India and PRC.

Many of the insurgencies you see in India are quite different from whatever is apparent. For example the Bodo Movement was a creation of RAW, and you can read about it in this thread: http://defenceforumindia.com/milita...rience-covert-action-need-action-against.html

 

[Tshering22]

Your points are non sequiturs, because, we drifted from India-PRC-Japan relations to India-PRC border dispute and now to separatist provinces or movements in India and PRC.

Many of the insurgencies you see in India are quite different from whatever is apparent. For example the Bodo Movement was a creation of RAW, and you can read about it in this thread: http://defenceforumindia.com/milita...rience-covert-action-need-action-against.html

I never knew that mate (stayed in Delhi all life till few years back and well..wasn't into defense and all earlier)... can you PM me with a jist about how and why? Thanks.

 

[pmaitra]

I never knew that mate (stayed in Delhi all life till few years back and well..wasn't into defense and all earlier)... can you PM me with a jist about how and why? Thanks.

Your inbox is full. I tried to send you a message but failed.

 

[Oracle]

OT. We cannot say for sure that the Bodo Movement was a creation of R&AW. We can assume that. The cause shown was for a separate Bodoland. However after it's creation much of ULFA's hold in Bodo dominated districts and towns ceased. Later, it was found that Bodos, ULFA, NSCM were acting in cahoots in terms of training and even supplying weapons.

So, if it was done by R&AW, it sure backfired.

 

[Tshering22]

OT. We cannot say for sure that the Bodo Movement was a creation of R&AW. We can assume that. The cause shown was for a separate Bodoland. However after it's creation much of ULFA's hold in Bodo dominated districts and towns ceased. Later, it was found that Bodos, ULFA, NSCM were acting in cahoots in terms of training and even supplying weapons.

So, if it was done by R&AW, it sure backfired.

It is very unfortunate that the "state" mentality and the "national" mentality has not yet dawned to a significant part of northeast India. I wonder how is progress possible if the people (that too so less in quantity and density that their entire population is lesser than Mumbai's alone) keep this same mindset. If they continue this madness, which businessman will invest in our region? Without safety there is no investment, without investment there's no profit, without profit there is no earnings and hence it leads to further violence.

As if all this tribal mentality was not enough, Chinese have also started funding terrorist groups here. This is what happens when we keep our own house on boil: the enemy always takes the cake.

For example, I am surprised that quite noticeable number of Nagas are so unconcerned about these things and still think that their fancy "Nagalim" would last anything against PLA's fury. They are so blinded by we're different mentality that they want to take provinces of other NE states as well and totally forget the dragon. All their culture, traditions and history will be exterminated by Red Guards if they continue this stupid "we're different" mentality. If they consider being "under India" as occupation I wonder what would they classify Red Guard occupation as. They need to thank their stars a zillion times that they're not under the CCP; or else they'd be speaking in Mandarin today wearing Chinese collar shirts and walking around rather than their ethnic wear.

This tribal mentality has to evolve into state mentality and national mentality. Only then our region can be called the heaven of India.

 

[Oracle]

TShering, I would like to add that majority of ethnic or tribals residing in NE India do not have separatist views. It's just those who get played.

 

[Tshering22]

TShering, I would like to add that majority of ethnic or tribals residing in NE India do not have separatist views. It's just those who get played.

I didn't mean majority. But a lot of them do get played. I mean come on.. how many big wigs do we have investing here? Upto Assam's industries and all its fine, but beyond? Not many. There are a lot of Nagas who're not hostile but want their Nagalim as a nation rather than realize what idiocy they are doing. Being neutral and then half minded about a separate country will not get them anywhere. They need to know how dangerous it would be to join up with CCP.

For example, many wings of NSCM are affiliated with aides from CCP. Anthony Shimray himself has sought Chinese help. What is this idiot thinking? That CCP will let him and his people retain the culture that they're so proud of? India celebrates the diverse cultures in each state (even though significant majority is basically same in different colors and forms); Shimray would be put in a barrel full of nails and rolled downhill daily by Red Guard until he forgets all Nagamese and starts talking in Mandarin and adopts the CCP ethos.

The smaller groups like Mizo and Kuki are also more or less like troublesome dacoits. They need to know how sensitive an area they are in rather than going on a shooting spree within their country. The more aggressive the Dragon gets, the more idiotic these groups are getting.

 

[niharjhatn]

Well, it looks like I, as a chinese, has different experience. What you can expect a chinese to say to you? F word?

LOL what does this mean?

Ok, now you make me laugh. Whether or not CCP truely represents chinese is decided by Chinese not its relationship with india.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You suggest that continual chinese incursions are "childish" - i.e. the CCP/PLA should not be acting so, should not be refusing to grant visas to certain regions, and should not be claiming that parts of India are in fact "South Tibet"...if this is your policy, how is you're government's actions a reflection of your views? I suggested that you are not the only Chinese citizen I have met who has such views. Hence, from my perspective, the CCP/PLA are really showing ZERO concern to the voice of their own people, and instead, are willing to risk another war, where MORE lives will be lost and crippled! People's republic indeed!

So,
territory occupied by chinese doesn't belong to china,
territory claimed by chinese doesn't belong to china,
territory occpupied by india belongs to india,
territory claimed by india belongs to india.
Fair enough.

Very confused...what are you trying to say?

China has vast territory that belongs to itself, and due to the weakness of the rest of the world, now claims Tibet as part of China too. THAT is now your territory. No Indian is claiming parts of China as India, if anything, we wish Tibet was independent, but that ain't happenin now.

If you swap the positions of China and India in your haiku, you would be closer to the truth.