Should Indian intelligence use this method to catch terrorists ?

Should Indian intelligence use sting operations aganist Jihadi Terrorists?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 24 82.8%
  • No!

    Votes: 3 10.3%
  • Can't say !

    Votes: 2 6.9%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .

sesha_maruthi27

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
3,963
Likes
1,803
Country flag
Entrapment is wrong, whether for prostitution or terrorism.
I agree with you Ewald bhai. This is like encouraging him to become someone who he is not and it is like abating suicide, instead we have to take him to a MENTAL ASYLUM and make him undergo counciling for his state of BAD MIND.
 

A chauhan

"अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l"
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
9,513
Likes
22,526
Country flag
Well if one abets me to act as a Hindu Terrorist i won't agree !

So it's a matter of self determination and discretion, why will a person turn into someone he is not ?

Only those will agree to do such terror attacks who are ill and criminal minded and are a "Potential Terrorist" , innocents will remain unaffected. And i don't see anything wrong in bringing out the potential terrorist from within.
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
I do not agree with ejazr !
Well I respect your opinion but lets look at it this way. What I am talking about building capacity BEFORE you can use entrapment techniques. If we did want to use these methods, without havine a professional police force entrapment would just not be credible. The other debate about wether entrapment should or should not be used is another debate. It might be ok to use it once the police capabilities are built up to ensure their professionalism and credibility but the debate is still out there.
Here are some links discussing this issue
The ex-FBI informant with a change of heart: | guardian.co.uk

In any case, the police working with the local communities and establishing a relationship with them would be more efficeint in getting tips and leads on suspcious characters which is what happens nowadays.You even have local Muslims working as undercover agents to catch terrorists. But our police is still so inefficient that sometimes even these undercover agents are caught as terrorists by some other police agency.
Case in point is the Naqi case where he was working with Delhi police to catch to Pakistanis holing up in a Delhi flat. The Mumbai ATS swooped in an arrested up botching the whole operation and letting the big fish get away.
13/7 Mumbai blasts: Naqi Ahmed's family wants Delhi police testimony - Economic Times
Did state ATS botch up probe by Delhi cops? - Times Of India

If this is happening when we are using undercover agents to catch REAL terrorists, then you can imagine what will happen when we are trying to entrap would be terrorists with inducements.

The other part of the puzzle is to look at how serious is the terrorism issue. How many deaths are caused by terrorism - particularly "islamic" inspired variety in the past 10 years? What about for example compared to the Naxal insurgency or the NE insurgency?

There are many sources including PM Manmohan and HM Chidambaram specifying that the Maoists threat is the biggest threat to India. The main difference between a terrorist attack and an insurgency is that while the govt. is still in a dominant position after the terror attacks, in areas of insurgency the local govt. is non-existent and hence is a bigger threat to the state. But unfortunately our media attention and public perception doesnt' sees the Naxal threat as a bigger threat to internal security than terrorism. We have more deaths from maoists attacks than any other violent activity but the media coverage and debates on this issue is probably the lowest among others.

Here are some fatalities from 2008-2011 for Maoists Vs terrorist attacks from the SATP. The fatalities include security forces, civilians and militants which gives an overall idea of the amount of violence.
Year --- Left Wing extremism fatalities --- Terrorism fatalities
2008 --- 638 ----- 351 (Mumbai attack - 166)
2009 --- 997 ----- 2
2010 --- 1180 ----- 20
2011 --- 602 ----- 42
2012 -- 119* ----- 0

* As of 29th April 2012

India Datasheets - South Asia Terrorism Portal[/QUOTE]


So based on the numbers, which is a more serious threat to us?
 

sesha_maruthi27

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
3,963
Likes
1,803
Country flag
Well if one abets me to act as a Hindu Terrorist i won't agree !

So it's a matter of self determination and discretion, why will a person turn into someone he is not ?

Only those will agree to do such terror attacks who are ill and criminal minded and are a "Potential Terrorist" , innocents will remain unaffected. And i don't see anything wrong in bringing out the potential terrorist from within.
This is how the CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES are converting people, they brainwash them very deeply in such a way that the person does not hear anything other than that.

Human BRAIN reacts to the situation and those missionaries take advantage of this and preach so deeply into the brain in such a way that it enters ones SUB-CONSCIOUS MIND and they get them converted. This is like a psychiatric treatment or counseling. Even I have come across such event were a missionary was trying to lure be, convert me but as I have a very strong mind and as I know the truth that GOD is ONE and he has no form and he is just LIGHT, I convinced him in his own way that GOD is one and he agreed with me and never ever came near me, in fact that person was one of my close friends.
 
Last edited:

A chauhan

"अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l"
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
9,513
Likes
22,526
Country flag
Well I respect your opinion but lets look at it this way. What I am talking about building capacity BEFORE you can use entrapment techniques. If we did want to use these methods, without havine a professional police force entrapment would just not be credible. The other debate about wether entrapment should or should not be used is another debate. It might be ok to use it once the police capabilities are built up to ensure their professionalism and credibility but the debate is still out there.
Here are some links discussing this issue
The ex-FBI informant with a change of heart: | guardian.co.uk

In any case, the police working with the local communities and establishing a relationship with them would be more efficeint in getting tips and leads on suspcious characters which is what happens nowadays.You even have local Muslims working as undercover agents to catch terrorists. But our police is still so inefficient that sometimes even these undercover agents are caught as terrorists by some other police agency.
Case in point is the Naqi case where he was working with Delhi police to catch to Pakistanis holing up in a Delhi flat. The Mumbai ATS swooped in an arrested up botching the whole operation and letting the big fish get away.
13/7 Mumbai blasts: Naqi Ahmed's family wants Delhi police testimony - Economic Times
Did state ATS botch up probe by Delhi cops? - Times Of India

If this is happening when we are using undercover agents to catch REAL terrorists, then you can imagine what will happen when we are trying to entrap would be terrorists with inducements.

The other part of the puzzle is to look at how serious is the terrorism issue. How many deaths are caused by terrorism - particularly "islamic" inspired variety in the past 10 years? What about for example compared to the Naxal insurgency or the NE insurgency?

There are many sources including PM Manmohan and HM Chidambaram specifying that the Maoists threat is the biggest threat to India. The main difference between a terrorist attack and an insurgency is that while the govt. is still in a dominant position after the terror attacks, in areas of insurgency the local govt. is non-existent and hence is a bigger threat to the state. But unfortunately our media attention and public perception doesnt' sees the Naxal threat as a bigger threat to internal security than terrorism. We have more deaths from maoists attacks than any other violent activity but the media coverage and debates on this issue is probably the lowest among others.

Here are some fatalities from 2008-2011 for Maoists Vs terrorist attacks from the SATP. The fatalities include security forces, civilians and militants which gives an overall idea of the amount of violence.
Year --- Left Wing extremism fatalities --- Terrorism fatalities
2008 --- 638 ----- 351 (Mumbai attack - 166)
2009 --- 997 ----- 2
2010 --- 1180 ----- 20
2011 --- 602 ----- 42
2012 -- 119* ----- 0

* As of 29th April 2012

India Datasheets - South Asia Terrorism Portal

So based on the numbers, which is a more serious threat to us?
What I am talking about building capacity BEFORE you can use entrapment techniques. If we did want to use these methods, without havine a professional police force entrapment would just not be credible.
I Agree! but this country can not wait as the lives of innocents is in danger, Mumbai attack is an example of this.

In any case, the police working with the local communities and establishing a relationship with them would be more efficeint in getting tips and leads on suspcious characters which is what happens nowadays.You even have local Muslims working as undercover agents to catch terrorists.
Right! and this method is already being used, Police uses Mukhbirs (informers) for all types of cases including Terror cases.

But our police is still so inefficient that sometimes even these undercover agents are caught as terrorists by some other police agency.Case in point is the Naqi case where he was working with Delhi police to catch to Pakistanis holing up in a Delhi flat. The Mumbai ATS swooped in an arrested up botching the whole operation and letting the big fish get away.
That is a problem, but not a common, permanent or a bigger one.

If this is happening when we are using undercover agents to catch REAL terrorists, then you can imagine what will happen when we are trying to entrap would be terrorists with inducements.
Yes that is why i said :-
I consider it one of the best ways to deal with the terrorists if done properly with cautions.
The other part of the puzzle is to look at how serious is the terrorism issue. How many deaths are caused by terrorism - particularly "islamic" inspired variety in the past 10 years? What about for example compared to the Naxal insurgency or the NE insurgency?
So far as the Naxalites are concerned they need a sharp answer via Army. I think "the Indian Police" has not been established for Wars, and what the Naxalites are doing is a war so they need to be fought by Army.But in this thread i am specifically talking about Terrorism which is not necessarily an Islamic one. Believe it or not Terrorism (specially Islamic one) is the biggest threat to the unity and integrity of this country, we have a very good example of J&K here.Only God knows.where this Muslim Brotherhood will take us.

There are many sources including PM Manmohan and HM Chidambaram specifying that the Maoists threat is the biggest threat to India.
The day before yesterday they were saying in NCTC CMs' meeting that "Terrorism is the biggest threat to India" , yet i agree with you that Maoism or Naxalism is also a big threat for us.

But unfortunately our media attention and public perception doesnt' sees the Naxal threat as a bigger threat to internal security than terrorism.
I don't think that Naxal threat is bigger than Terror threat, as their nature and objectives are different, today Terrorism is basically a Religious one, which has become a universal headache (which has already caused death of thousands of people worldwide ), while Naxalism is a re-formative one, which is limited to the tribal or rural areas.But both Naxalites and Terrorists needs to be wiped out completely by war or such tools.

Here are some fatalities from 2008-2011 for Maoists Vs terrorist attacks from the SATP. The fatalities include security forces, civilians and militants which gives an overall idea of the amount of violence.
Year --- Left Wing extremism fatalities --- Terrorism fatalities
2008 --- 638 ----- 351 (Mumbai attack - 166)
2009 --- 997 ----- 2
2010 --- 1180 ----- 20
2011 --- 602 ----- 42
2012 -- 119* ----- 0

* As of 29th April 2012
My own state Chhattisgarh is a victim of Naxalism, i agree this should be solved asap, but i personally believe Naxalites needs an Armed attack and some serious steps to stop them. But i see religious problems are bigger threat to us, as they affect the mind of the common people.For Terrorists many people can have soft corners or religious sympathy, that is why OBL is considered a hero of Islam in some parts of the world. But Naxalites are always treated with hatred and fear.

BTW this sting operation method can be used with Naxalites too.


This is how the CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES are converting people, they brainwash them very deeply in such a way that the person does not hear anything other than that.

Human BRAIN reacts to the situation and those missionaries take advantage of this and preach so deeply into the brain in such a way that it enters ones SUB-CONSCIOUS MIND and they get them converted. This is like a psychiatric treatment or counseling. Even I have come across such event were a missionary was trying to lure be, convert me but as I have a very strong mind and as I know the truth that GOD is ONE and he has no form and he is just LIGHT, I convinced him in his own way that GOD is one and he agreed with me and never ever came near me, in fact that person was one of my close friends.
Although i agree with you what you said, yet i believe conversion and terrorism are two different things, conversions doesn't lead us to the deaths of innocents.
 
Last edited:

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
@AC lot of things have changed after mumbai attack, there are stories of how Pakistani Terrorists wake up inside India ( when they went inside Nepal) and then send to Police remand by Indian Court. All this with help from Nepal Govt. Intelligence agencies cannot inform about their successes before media, it is most thankless job and when single terror attack take place they are the one who are blamed.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Entrapment vs. instigation. Entrapment is legal and right while instigation is wrong.
In entrapment the law enforcers merely traps a criminal who is bent in committing the crime (the intention to commit the crime is already there) while in instigation the idea to commit the crime came from the authorities (had it not been for the encouragement from the undercover law enforcers or their agents the suspect would not have committed the crime).
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
@A chauhan

This OT but you have to look at how you define what type of threat is a "bigger threat"

IMO, fatalities is probably the best method

And looking at that, in India, even if you add the J&K attacks which is more of an insurgency like what we have in the Naxalite areas and NE than say terror attacks of the type in Mumbai; the numbers would be quite interesting.

The NCTC in the US has been tracking all violent incidents in India since 2004 and the cumulative attacks where the perpetrators are "Islamic" extremists is around 9%. That is taking into account all attacks including the J&K ones If you excluse the J&K attacks then the numbers fall even more.

https://wits.nctc.gov/FederalDiscov...=Country|4294966898|India&Rcv=Perpetrator&N=0

More than 50% of the attacks are maoists related. To say that maoists dominate violence in India with no support from the tribals would be an illogical thing to say. The maoists have a well developed support base who for what ever reasons believe that they will deliver and resolve their grivenaces. Terror attacks outside India have no support compared to maoists. That is why all lethal attacks in India have Pakistani involvement.
J&K which did have indigenous support was again an insurgency just like what we have in the maoists areas or what we had in Punjab in the 80s. When the state doesn't deliver on the genuine griveances, then such problems can take a more serious turn.

Some other things you mentioned doesn't really apply in the Indian case. OBL never serioulsy targeted India and hardly mentioned India in any of his speeches and we don't have a Muslim Brotherhood counter part in India, but Muslim Brotherhood itself doesn't have anything to do with terror attacks in India or abroad. The closest we can get in India is the Jamaat Islami - Hind and this organisation has disavowed politics and has also removed some teachings of Maududi from its core philosophies like the idea of establishing an "Islamic state" where sharia is implemented top down among other things.
 
Last edited:

A chauhan

"अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l"
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
9,513
Likes
22,526
Country flag
@A chauhan

This OT but you have to look at how you define what type of threat is a "bigger threat"

IMO, fatalities is probably the best method

And looking at that, in India, even if you add the J&K attacks which is more of an insurgency like what we have in the Naxalite areas and NE than say terror attacks of the type in Mumbai; the numbers would be quite interesting.

The NCTC in the US has been tracking all violent incidents in India since 2004 and the cumulative attacks where the perpetrators are "Islamic" extremists is around 9%. That is taking into account all attacks including the J&K ones If you excluse the J&K attacks then the numbers fall even more.

https://wits.nctc.gov/FederalDiscov...=Country|4294966898|India&Rcv=Perpetrator&N=0

More than 50% of the attacks are maoists related. To say that maoists dominate violence in India with no support from the tribals would be an illogical thing to say. The maoists have a well developed support base who for what ever reasons believe that they will deliver and resolve their grivenaces. Terror attacks outside India have no support compared to maoists. That is why all lethal attacks in India have Pakistani involvement.
J&K which did have indigenous support was again an insurgency just like what we have in the maoists areas or what we had in Punjab in the 80s. When the state doesn't deliver on the genuine griveances, then such problems can take a more serious turn.

Some other things you mentioned doesn't really apply in the Indian case. OBL never serioulsy targeted India and hardly mentioned India in any of his speeches and we don't have a Muslim Brotherhood counter part in India, but Muslim Brotherhood itself doesn't have anything to do with terror attacks in India or abroad. The closest we can get in India is the Jamaat Islami - Hind and this organisation has disavowed politics and has also removed some teachings of Maududi from its core philosophies like the idea of establishing an "Islamic state" where sharia is implemented top down among other things.
IMO, fatalities is probably the best method
Almost 100% people follow a religion here, and whenever a religious terror attack happens, it disturbs the minds of every and each common Indian, while Maoists do not attack on religious basis, so basically majority of people doesn't get affected by it as it does not disturbs the minds of common people.

Though fatalities in Maoist attacks are higher but terror attack attracts and disturbs the minds of the common people, that is why now Govt. is taking it as a more bigger threat than Maoism.After 9/11 people have understood how dangerous terrorism can be.

I am always of the view that the "defence of your country starts with the development of your agriculture" if your agriculture is weak your national defence is weak, Indian Maoists demand the development of their rural/tribal areas which is not a bad thing, when Govt. fails to realize its targets in such areas, such problems occur. Maoists are influenced by Maoist political sentiment and ideology, and not by Terror. Indian govt. announced "Integrated Action Plan" (IAP) against Naxalism in 2009, its aim was to develop the Naxalite affected areas from grass root level, and it also funded for better police establishment, to reduce the Naxalite influence.In 2009, Naxalites were active across approximately 180 districts in ten states of India.In August 2010, after the first full year of implementation of the national IAP program,Karnataka was removed from the list of naxal affected states.In July 2011, the number of Naxal affected areas were reduced to (figure includes proposed addition of 20 districts) 83 districts across nine states.In December 2011 govt. reported that the number of Naxalite related deaths and injuries nationwide had gone down by nearly 50% from 2010 levels.

On the other hand the sole aim of the terrorists is to spread "Terror" for emotional and religious or non religious causes which are highly biased or unjustified,has neither head nor feet,and tough to be controlled, there is no way to stop a Fidayeen attack unless you know who is going to make it.In short they are "fanatics" who can only be controlled through "identification" and prosecution.

As i said above, Naxalism is gradually declining and now we need to deal with the terrorism.Now we need to announce an Integrated Action Plan against Terrorism having effective measures to identify terrorists and their supporters and for that this sting operation method is quite effective.

Some other things you mentioned doesn't really apply in the Indian case. OBL never serioulsy targeted India and hardly mentioned India in any of his speeches and we don't have a Muslim Brotherhood counter part in India, but Muslim Brotherhood itself doesn't have anything to do with terror attacks in India or abroad.
OBL was a Terrorist, with the sole aim of spreading Terror and though he didn't directly attack or plan against India yet he brought great fear to Indians.And there was no gaurantee that he wont target us.Till there is US we will always be a second potential victim of Al Qaida. But I remember how Shahi Imaam Bukhari and some others denied to consider him a terrorist,they also declared that shooting him was wrong,and some of them offered prayer for the peace of his soul, peacce to the soul of a terrorist!! If there was no Muslim brotherhood in India then there can't be any IM or SIMI here.Hyderabad and Ahmedabad are good examples of this,everyone in India know that Pakistan is a terrorist state yet people hail "Pakistan Zindabad" in some areas and those areas are directly inlfuenced by Muslim Brotherhood, which almost all of us have experienced and seen.

Maoist problem can be controlled by military measures and development plans but terrorism can only be be controlled by preventive measures such as better Intelligence and information network.. What i notice is Maoist normally attack on tribal, police and government workers, who are on duty in tribal/rural areas, their impact on urban area is very limited, once those rural areas get developed Maoists will cease to exist.While terrorists basically attack on civilians and innocent there is no way to stop it until we actively keep an eye on those through effective methods and this sting operation is one of them.

All i want to say is Naxalites have some legitimate demands of development,which can be fulfilled through some positive efforts by govt. while you can't fulfill any demand of terrorists as they only want to spread terror, so it's better to identify and prosecute them asap.

Many terror attacks have left evidences of local support, without which such attacks were impossible, so this method of sting operation is highly relevant.
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
^^^ What you are saying is that basically we should give into the fear psychosis that the terrorists want to create

When Pakistanis send LeT or other terrorists to blow up bombs in India what is their aim? It is to create a destabilization and fear sentiment, a backlash against muslims that would in turn feed into a reverse backlash and start a cycle of violence. They don't for a second believe that they will be able to defeat India or kill of everyone this way. Terrorism is a tactic that works on how afraid you get. If you go into fear and shock, the terrorists have won.

What we should be doing is looking at the facts and education people. To tell them that when a terrorist bomb blows up, it doesn't look and check if there are muslims there. In Mumbai attacks you had 30 muslims shot dead or killed as well. One entire family of 8 members was finished leaving behind only a 10 year old boy.

No one is saying forget about terrorism. It is an issue and post-2008, we have seen that pressure built up by GoI on Pakistan has been very effective. This is visible in the fact that there has been a sharp drop in terrorist attacks in India and proves that without Pakistani support, they can't happen.

It is always going to be more successful to build community based policing and relations with local communities who WANT to help. There is no reason why the police should not take up sincerely on this offer. I have already listed instances where locals helped or atleast were trying to help capture Pakistanis involved in bomb making before the Mumbai ATS bungled it up.

And coming to OBL, you might want to read up on what he talked about and his statements. A good book is Al Qaeda by Jason Burke. Arab based terrorists groups have always been focussed towards US and Israel. They have no interest with India. It has always been Pakistan that has tried to push India as an anti-muslim country and tried to involve Afghans and Arabs in its anti-India projects but failed overall. Even the US in its private wikileak cables have confirmed that Indian Muslims have no extremist leanings. I think the fact that out of the 1000s of Guantanamo detainees, not a single one of them was an Indian Muslim despite India having the 2nd highest Muslim population in the world.

Lets not go into an overstretch and focus on the terror groups that really matter to us. And these are exclusively based and backed by Pakistan. No one will help us in tackling these groups except ourselves because these groups don't target any other country except India.
 

VIP

Ultra Nationalist
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
5,405
Likes
5,530
Country flag
Well if one abets me to act as a Hindu Terrorist i won't agree !

So it's a matter of self determination and discretion, why will a person turn into someone he is not ?

Only those will agree to do such terror attacks who are ill and criminal minded and are a "Potential Terrorist" , innocents will remain unaffected. And i don't see anything wrong in bringing out the potential terrorist from within.
The case you have provided here,looks like FBI was dealing with some idiots who do know what to do without having goal to achieve but don't know how to execute. Nobody was there to brainwash them and some guy's history also says he had some mental illness. Frankly, many in US suffer with such mental illness and have very violent thinking. So, in US, FBI must be finding many mentally ill people than real anarchists lol.
Terrorists have different mentality and method, they do have proper goal to achieve and they might use such mentally ill people or brain wash any normal person,too. So,yes this method is very much effective to catch terrorists but need to executed carefully.
In India, I don't know but police really need to be very hi-tech to catch such people and I guess our intelligence agencies are capable of doing such things, may be they're doing it right now but we don't know.
This method has some drawbacks as it can put you in ultimate shame of catching a schizophrenic or bipolar person but there's no harm in doing this,and must be recommended to catch terrorists. But again, mustn't be used for political purposes.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top