Should Indian intelligence use this method to catch terrorists ?

Discussion in 'Internal Security' started by A chauhan, May 4, 2012.

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Should Indian intelligence use sting operations aganist Jihadi Terrorists?

Poll closed May 10, 2012.
  1. Yes!

    24 vote(s)
    82.8%
  2. No!

    3 vote(s)
    10.3%
  3. Can't say !

    2 vote(s)
    6.9%
  1. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    FBI provocateur ensnares Cleveland protesters in “bomb plot”
    By Bill Van Auken
    3 May 2012

    Federal authorities Tuesday, May 1, charged five men described as “anarchists” with plotting to blow up a bridge linking two Cleveland, Ohio suburbs. The charges were the culmination of a six-month long sting operation involving a paid confidential informant that ended with undercover FBI operatives supplying the five with fake explosives and then arresting them.

    An affidavit presented by the FBI to secure warrants for the arrests claims that the case grew out of a decision of the agency’s Cleveland office to send their informant into an Occupy Cleveland demonstration last October to investigate a “report of potential criminal activity and threats involving anarchists.”

    The so-called “terrorist plot” traces its origins to this FBI fishing expedition and, as the affidavit makes clear, would never have existed outside of the agency’s informant and undercover operatives egging on the five defendants, organizing their activities and supplying them with the fake explosives.

    The men arrested were identified as Brandon Baxter, 20, described by police as homeless, Douglas Wright, 26, Connor Stevens, 20, Joshua Stafford, 23 and Anthony Hayne, 35. All but Wright, who was said to be from Indianapolis, were from Cleveland or surrounding suburbs.

    A report by a local television station, WKYC, suggested that some of the men had mental problems. It cited a police report from February that Baxter had “jumped in front of a car in the middle of the night and told the driver to kill me.”

    Stafford’s mother described her son as someone who has “been troubled since he’s been young, been in and out of hospitals, prisons, jails. He’s just been a troubled soul since he’s been born.”

    In its description of the Confidential Human Source, or informant, who has yet to be identified, the FBI affidavit states that he, or she, “has a criminal record including one conviction for possession of cocaine in 1990, one conviction for robbery in 1991, and four convictions for passing bad checks between 1991 and 2011.” The informant was paid $5,750 for his services and $550 for expenses.

    This is a typical profile for the informers used by the FBI. They are individuals facing jail for criminal offenses who are offered leniency and cash in return for entrapping others in manufactured conspiracies. Such was the case with Shahed Hussain, a failed Pakistani immigrant businessman who was convicted of fraud and then asked to become an informer, trawling New York state’s Muslim immigrant communities and mosques for individuals who could be lured into conspiracies of the FBI’s invention. This produced two major “terrorist plots,” one in Albany involving alleged money laundering for purchase of a non-existent stinger missile, and one in Newburgh that centered on four black American Muslims, paid by and acting under the instructions of the informant, planting fake explosives at synagogues.

    Recounting the Cleveland informant’s original meetings with those now charged with conspiracy and facing 25 year jail sentences, the affidavit cites casual conversations in which the five toss out ideas such as setting off smoke bombs or stink bombs and knocking bank signs off of downtown Cleveland buildings.

    Their aim, according to the affidavit’s recounting of the informant’s report was “to send a message to corporations and the United States government.”

    The informant was sent to meet with the five men targeted by the FBI wearing a concealed recording device. Even the portions of what the FBI presents as transcripts of recordings indicate that the informant worked deliberately to steer them toward the use of explosives.

    For instance, Wright laughingly describes having read part of a book titled the “Anarchist Cookbook,” :lol: stating, “We can make smoke bombs, we can make plastic explosives, we can make, like, we can—it teaches you how to pick locks. It does everything.”

    The informant responds, “How much money we need to make the plastic explosives.” When Wright indicates that he has no idea, the informant presses him, “You gotta get with me, uh, if we gonna be trying to do something in a month you need to get with me as soon as possible on how much money we gonna need.”

    It is clear that from the outset the aim was to convince those charged to agree to buy “explosives” from undercover operatives to make the conspiracy case that had been invented by the FBI.

    According to the affidavit, the informant suggested the bridge to be bombed, drove the defendants to it and convinced them that he had a “contact” who could sell them explosives.

    At one point, the affidavit’s version of the recording transcripts shows the informant pressing Baxter that decisions must be made because they “are not that far out from the operation, time-wise,” and Baxter replying that he “was just throwing around ideas and does not know exactly what they should do.”

    This type of exchange is repeated in the course of the affidavit, indicating that the informant was the driving force in the so-called conspiracy, pressing the hapless “anarchists” to carry out actions that they had neither the inclination nor the ability to do on their own. Indeed, it is not clear whether the five even had access to a car, as the informant is repeatedly reported as driving them to the meetings with the undercovers, to the site of the bridge and elsewhere.

    Clearly intimidated by Monday’s arrests, the leadership of Occupy Cleveland responded by calling off a planned May Day demonstration in the city. It issued a statement acknowledging that the five “had participated in Occupy Cleveland events,” but “were in no way representing or acting on behalf of Occupy Cleveland.”

    The affidavit presented in Cleveland outlines a scenario virtually identical to the numerous terror cases manufactured by the FBI through sting operations targeting Muslims. As in these cases, the defendants in Cleveland were targeted not because of any criminal action that they had committed, but rather because of ideas that they expressed, which, in a confused manner, indicated opposition to US corporations and the government.

    As with scores of Muslims who have been framed up and jailed, they were lured by an informer and undercover agents into playing assigned roles in a crime that was staged and controlled from the outset by the FBI.

    The government’s purpose in staging these operations in relation to Muslims in the US is clear. They are designed to lend substance to the so-called war on terror, justifying wars of aggression abroad and increased surveillance and repression within the US itself in the name of “keeping Americans safe” from a supposedly ubiquitous threat of Al Qaeda attack.

    What is the government’s aim in now turning these same methods against alleged anarchists expressing hostility to corporate America?

    After the five men were arraigned in federal court in shackles and leg irons Tuesday afternoon, US Attorney Steven Dettelbach told a press conference that, “This case demonstrates that the threat we face is a diverse one; that terrorism can come in many hues and from many homelands.”

    This is a warning. Under conditions of protracted economic crisis and growing social unrest, the government is preparing to use the police state methods it developed in the “war on terror” to intimidate and suppress any challenge to the rule of the corporations and the financial elite in America. Judging from the government’s own affidavit, the entrapment of the hapless “anarchists” in Cleveland is a test run of this strategy.
    FBI provocateur ensnares Cleveland protesters in “bomb plot”

    Now think if the person who lured Afzal Guru were an IB agent with fake plans to attack Indian Parliament, we could have caught him, before they committed terrorist attack !! after all Afzal Guru was lured by a Jihadi for money and jihad, so i think it's better to be lured and caught by a security agent.

    What do you guys think on it, should Indian intelligence adopt the sting operation of that type ? off course if Bangaroo Laxman's sting was morally right then this too would be right.
     
  2.  
  3. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    yeah we need to change our methods, like use of sleeping gas when taking out terrorists, etc they are worth more when they are alive, get information and then complete encounter.
     
    Godless-Kafir and A chauhan like this.
  4. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    Added simple poll options !!
     
  5. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    yes, we need to change fast.....
     
  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    No harm having at shot at it.
     
  7. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    Actually i want to edit the Poll option question by removing the word "Jihadi", as it is intended for all terrorists whether he is Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Sikh.
    Mods please edit the poll options :)
    Thanks
     
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  8. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    Saya we need fast acting darts which can bring unconsciousness within seconds, or they will take cyanide pills, like we have seen in movies.

    This sting operation method is quite interesting and effective to bring out the rogue elements, hardliners (ghar ka bhedi) who are harmful for secular society.
     
  9. ashicjose

    ashicjose Regular Member

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    TERRORISTS............ just shoot at sight
     
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  10. SLASH

    SLASH Senior Member Senior Member

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    It would discourage many young men to join jihadi outfits as it could be a trap.
     
  11. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    @SLASH

    Inactive or hibernating terrorists are more dangerous than the active ones ! let them get trapped and caught !
     
  12. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Any measure that stops terror before it is committed should be preferred over all other after-the-fact actions. Yes there may be instances of over-zealousness but I'd prefer this anytime than dozens of bodies strewn in urban places (terror victims). :thumb:
     
  13. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    We already have cases of 100s of false arrests in terror cases. Our court systems takes 10+ years to acquit people and our police still has to go through reforms to be as professional as the police in the US. The Forensice techniques of our police is weak and the technology that is used in these sting operations like spy cams and wires is something that is just not available to our police forces. Although I am sure there are many informers that pass second hand information to the IB of every state.
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...s-named-terror-cases-without-proof-paper.html

    More important ideas like having central co-ordination with law enforcement bodies and establishing an NCTC is what is required but ofcourse the politiciking around that we still haven't got working.
    We should enact police reforms ASAP and madate every state to spend atleast 25 of their SGDP on police modernisation. This includes a doubleing of police personnel as well as doubling of the salaries of the police personnel so that they are not suceptible to petty corruption.

    These type of methods are not only used for terror suspects but also for Child molesters in the US where the FBI has a underage poser soliciting sex from adults and if the Adult takes the bait, then they are arrested and charged
    There was even a TV show on this on MSNBC
    Here are some videos on youtube from a quick search.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
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  14. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Entrapment is wrong, whether for prostitution or terrorism.
     
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  15. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    I do not agree with ejazr !

    False arrests and sting arrests are two different things, so that example does not apply here !! false arrests are made on suspicion but sting arrests are made on strong evidences !! only one who gets lured and involved for Jihadi terrorism or for any such activity will be arrested,so it's a nice way to filter out the rogue elements from the society.

    I consider it one of the best ways to deal with the terrorists if done properly with cautions.

    Saving the lives of innocent is right, so sting operations are also right, if such operations brings the true face of some people then it must be adopted, hundreds of false arrests are made regularly here but after trial innocents get acquitted and guilty gets convicted.

    Imagine if you remove police's right of arrest on the ground of suspicion in such cases, what would happen to the society! such terrorists will turn India into Pakistan, and bomb blasts will become a common scene here like Pakistan.

    Legal system has its own pros and cons, but we can't leave the legal system for the cons !!
     
  16. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    I agree with you on principle.
     
  17. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Everything is fair in love and war. And we're at war here, man.
     
  18. Yatharth Singh

    Yatharth Singh Regular Member

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    LoL. Very funny question it is. haha

    Even if our Intelligence Agencies take such actions then you wont be able to know it until you become quite old. :D And who knows even if they are currently on it. They have done it in past. They will do it whenever required. They arent Mossad but also not cowards. They report directly to PMO. Not even PMO but to the PM itself. So how the hell anyone of us could know what going in there.

    WE KNOW NOTHING. So stop posing such questions as if RAW is working on our assistance!
     
  19. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Entrapment vs. instigation. Entrapment is legal and right while instigation is wrong.
     
  20. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    "All's fair in love and war" is truly a cliche. It has no basis in the law. It would be thrown out by any judge were it presented as an argument in a court.

    If the only crimes prosecuted by the government are crimes which would not have been committed without the participation of a government informant, how credible is the government? In the US it used to be cases against the KKK using FBI informants. Now the targets are "terrorists."
     
  21. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Then please provide a legal definition for each word.
     

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