Should India Join the Combined Task Force?

[Ray]

Regular soldiers do not illegally trade ammo for gold and ivory to the rebels they are supposed to be stopping.

True.

But then regulars can also go renegade in intent and make a quick buck! Of course, it is no comparison to the loot the colonial powers did in well pressed suit, tie and all!

I am not supporting them, but all I am saying is that greed may have overpowered the soldiers and that is disgraceful.

They had been enlisted under oath and they let down the country by making their oath irrelevant.

 

[JayATL]

Intelligence is a G Matter and not a Logistic issue at all.

okay- let's just agree to disagree here. according to you , multiple nations in one theater going after one mission ( common goal) does not need one person( body) in charge of collection, dispensation of information, strategy, etc to the rest. It's a free for all - Roger that.

Also agree to disagree- you feel UN does not allow any one member to head up aspects of ground operations over other contributing members. roger that too.

three Indian Army Generals are holding crucial postings in UN peacekeeping forces. Lt General Randhir Kumar Mehta is the military advisor to the UN secretary general and two senior Army Generals are heading UN peacekeeping missions

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_indian-contribution-to-un-peacekeeping-highest-ever_1021385

 

[p2prada]

JayATL

The link you provided only says Pakistani troops were in charge of providing logistics support. It means Pakistani troops were maintaining supply routes throughout hostile territory. It does not necessarily mean the nation of Pakistan provided food and weapons to NATO as well as non NATO members under UN jurisdiction. The logistics equipment belong to UN and the Pakistanis weren't shipping them all from Karachi.

 

[JayATL]

arghh- do you guys know the original point of contention? seems like the original point is missed and we are talking past each other.


FIRST
When I cited the UN as an example originally- I was reminding the poster that just like we don't give up our sovereignty on a UN deployment , specifically, when being under a logistic command of another country within UN missions ( similar to what will happen under CBT 150)- then why look at the CFT 150 as a threat to sovereignty or lack of maintaining of one's independence ?

THEN

Ray comes in and says that UN controls everything, omnipotent in UN missions , so saying in effect my UN example was faulty regarding anyone being under some other countries command within a UN mission.

THEN

I came back and gave examples of situations where even under UN missions , other member countries could be under the ' commanding body' of certain country over certain aspects of the mission - but of course it do not mean you lost your sovereignty .


and NOW

You guys are nitpicking the 'type' of command, while not getting that it still was a command over other countries.

 

[Ray]

okay- let's just agree to disagree here. according to you , multiple nations in one theater going after one mission ( common goal) does not need one person( body) in charge of collection, dispensation of information, strategy, etc to the rest. It's a free for all - Roger that.

Also agree to disagree- you feel UN does not allow any one member to head up aspects of ground operations over other contributing members. roger that too.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_indian-contribution-to-un-peacekeeping-highest-ever_1021385

There is nothing to agree to disagree.

It has nothing to do with me. It is what the UN rules dictate.

Your contention is like a rural unlettered chap telling an educated man that the moon gives light and does not reflect light!!

Have I said that there is no Commander and it is free for all?

Please read my posts on UN operations and then speak.

Let your ignorance not explode!

Understand military operations and how it is conducted and then come back for some discussion.

three Indian Army Generals are holding crucial postings in UN peacekeeping forces. Lt General Randhir Kumar Mehta is the military advisor to the UN secretary general and two senior Army Generals are heading UN peacekeeping missions

What are you trying to convey?

 

[Ray]

arghh- do you guys know the original point of contention? seems like the original point is missed and we are talking past each other.


FIRST
When I cited the UN as an example originally- I was reminding the poster that just like we don't give up our sovereignty on a UN deployment , specifically, when being under a logistic command of another country within UN missions ( similar to what will happen under CBT 150)- then why look at the CFT 150 as a threat to sovereignty or lack of maintaining of one's independence ?

THEN

Ray comes in and says that UN controls everything, omnipotent in UN missions , so saying in effect my UN example was faulty regarding anyone being under some other countries command within a UN mission.

THEN

I came back and gave examples of situations where even under UN missions , other member countries could be under the ' commanding body' of certain country over certain aspects of the mission - but of course it do not mean you lost your sovereignty .


and NOW

You guys are nitpicking the 'type' of command, while not getting that it still was a command over other countries.

I did not come in out of the blue.

I came in because of your repeated 'pointless discussing' addressing to view contrary to yours of other posters. As if you are the all knowing.

I also wanted to tell the difference of operating under one Flag and operating under the UN Flag. I said it as gently as feasible to not upset.

Sadly, owing to your lack of understanding the basics of military operations and the comparison with that of the UN operations, you have been wandering all over the place adamantly trying to fit, deflect, and contrive statements to suit your point of view.

I am afraid, you have no clue of the military and of military operations and very little clue of UN operations!

 

[JayATL]

aww gimme a break your military lordship. You don't have to be a jar head to have common sense. go in peace.. I summarized it perfectly. one flag / under UN flag was not even the point I made originally- it was UN as example of where, countries could have a collective effort , be at times under a commanding body of another country in certain aspects, and not have their sovereignty in question. so I guess you came in with your own set of ' military know how' comprehension. you win stud...

 

[Ray]

Navy 'sunk Thai trawler by mistake'
Indian military admits wrongly identifying boat but says it fired in self-defence.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_indian-contribution-to-un-peacekeeping-highest-ever_1021385

Acting independently, it causes problems in inter country relationship, even though this was justified.

Imagine operating under some other country's command.

Imagine sinking an Iranian trawler under the US instructions because to the US Iran is suspect.

 

[Ray]

aww gimme a break your military lordship. You don't have to be a jar head to have common sense. go in peace.. I summarized it perfectly. one flag / under UN flag was not even the point I made originally- it was UN as example of where, countries could have a collective effort , be at times under a commanding body of another country in certain aspects, and not have their sovereignty in question. so I guess you came in with your own set of ' military know how' comprehension. you win stud...

I take exception to your words.

I am afraid I am not a Jarhead. Search and you will find it (the phenomenon you attribute to me) close to you. Yet, there is this point that maybe you still require two ounces to qualify for even that!

You do have this propensity to be unnecessarily obnoxious when you are on a sticky wicket and exposed to be short on knowledge and a trifle woolly headed.

You summarised nothing except your exponentially exploding ignorance with an armoured plated turret.

I did not come with any set of military know how. I came in with 37 years of battle hardened military experience and I regret that I did so since you cannot help someone who does not even know the alphabets.

I am not here to win.

It is too insignificant an area to win, when I have won on real fields of battle and that too been recognised by the Govt for the same.

You are not talking to a Logistic man, but an Operational man, the last being Kargil.

Further, if you cannot debate, refrain from being what American say - smart-assed!

 

[Ray]

I summarized it perfectly. one flag / under UN flag was not even the point I made originally- it was UN as example of where, countries could have a collective effort , be at times under a commanding body of another country in certain aspects, and not have their sovereignty in question.

One Flag means under the operational command of one country and its aspirations and aim.

If UN is used as an example, then the UN military mission and its command structure has to be understood.

I gave both.

If one is under command of one country and following its intent and aims, then where is the individual sovereignty?

Since you have no clue of the rudimentaries of the military, do check the glossary as to what is meant by 'under command' and what all does it manifest.

aww gimme a break your military lordship.

In the military, we have no Lordship.

Notwithstanding, don't you think you should give ME a break?

Since you have been rude and obnoxious, may I say with all humility that two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

 

[JayATL]

......., mad respect for your militray service but that has nothing to do with my argument. so you misunderstood what I was saying- it happens.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_indian-contribution-to-un-peacekeeping-highest-ever_1021385

Acting independently, it causes problems in inter country relationship, even though this was justified.

Imagine operating under some other country's command.

Imagine sinking an Iranian trawler under the US instructions because to the US Iran is suspect.

your right boss, all those other nations in the current BFT are military fools, we bow to your military intellect. heh. NATO and all the joint exercise and patrolling - fool's I say !~ just fool's! what do they know of anything!

 

[A.V.]

Sorry to interrupt the heated debate , but would just request jay not to use Words as DUDE/Stud for respected members here its not something we do in the forum since a long time , strong debates can be even without these Remarks .



ADDED LATER :- i was not following the thread just came in with the above post , so as ray sir said there is no need to be rude posts can go on without that

thanks

AV,

I have no problems.

All I say is that if facts are given, I have no hesitation accepting them.

I have given the issue on operating under another country vs operations under the UN Flag and the difference.

Now, if someone does not like it because it does not suit their agenda, I find no reason to get offensive. It is not that he is offensive only to me, he is offensive to all who do not conform to his views and that is why I came in, to clarify.

 

[JayATL]

ahh . colloquiums, my bad. i shall add his words " a trifle woolly headed, exploding ignorance with an armoured plated turret' to my repertoire .

 

[Ray]

......., mad respect for your militray service but that has nothing to do with my argument. so you misunderstood what I was saying- it happens.



your right boss, all those other nations in the current BFT are military fools, we bow to your military intellect. heh.

No, I don't take it that I am right or wrong.

Indicate how,

Don't digress.

What is BFT?

You don't have to appear you are doing me a favour. Since in the face of the reality, you have no stand.

Since you are versed with Americanism - put your money where you mouth is.

Correct me on the UN Chapters on Military Operations of the UN.

I don't consider it to be a heated debate.

All I have to comment on is that there is no need to be rude and obnoxious. It only indicates frustration of failing to come up with facts.

So these words are colloquiums?

What if one used Punjabi ones in response?

 

[JayATL]

meant CFT. I can't man debate your mad militray intellect, who can argue in the face of that great militray edict " Acting independently, it causes problems in inter country relationship, even though this was justified. Imagine operating under some other country's command. Imagine sinking an Iranian trawler under the US instructions because to the US Iran is suspect."

I am writing to my local congressman and senators to have the US pull out of CFT(surprisingly they have not had any issues) and all NATO joint op's to cease. and I'll be outside their offices with the following plaque " hey hey ho ho, the US must go ".

 

[Ray]

Let us not get too enamoured with the US or the NATO.

We have seen enough of their hyped operations and they are floundering.

Hardly an example.

And now they want to turn tail.

Take the example of what we are doing and doing it without bombing the folks to smithereens as they do and still fail.

The Sri Lankans, hardly an army if you will, did what the US and the ISAF have not been able to do given that their attitude to operations similar.

Indians are steeped in humanism.

In the long run, the Indians will win.

 

[Ray]

meant CFT. I can't man debate your mad militray intellect, who can argue in the face of that great militray edict " Acting independently, it causes problems in inter country relationship, even though this was justified. Imagine operating under some other country's command. Imagine sinking an Iranian trawler under the US instructions because to the US Iran is suspect."

I am writing to my local congressman and senators to have the US pull out of CFT(surprisingly they have not had any issues) and all NATO joint op's to cease. and I'll be outside their offices with the following plaque " hey hey ho ho, the US must go ".

Of course, to the clueless it is mad military intellect.

Your Congressman will laugh at your suggestion.

It also indicates you know nothing of the US geostrategy.

Get hold of Dic,k Cheney's (when he was the Secretary of Defence) Defence Policy Guidelines.

It will open up your vista as to what is unfolding around the world in so far as the US is concerned.

You hey heying like Santa Claus will make no difference to the US.

 

[Ray]

Have you served in the US military?

In Iraq or Afghanistan?

Or even Haiti?

Or even like George Bush, wearing the uniform but never leaving the US?

 

[Ray]

I am reminded of this (in a contextual sense):


And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

 

[JayATL]

ROFL Sri Lankan model... HAHAHHAAHA your funny. good one.

Your Congressman will laugh at your suggestion.

It also indicates you know nothing of the US geostrategy.

Get hold of Dic,k Cheney's (when he was the Secretary of Defence) Defence Policy Guidelines.

It will open up your vista as to what is unfolding around the world in so far as the US is concerned.

You hey heying like Santa Claus will make no difference to the US.

What LOL, can you be a bit more coherent- your coming across as rambling now.

beside intending to be facetious- I was saying I was going to approach my local congressman and senators to stop and use your militray intellect on joint exercises or op's as being way risky, as you eluded to.

btw why would my congressman and senator laugh at it. they are the bodies that fund those operations.

We have seen enough of their hyped operations and they are floundering.

Hardly an example.

And now they want to turn tail.

Take the example of what we are doing and doing it without bombing the folks to smithereens as they do and still fail.

10 plus years and it is Floundering? Look at us? at what? what your equivalency?

Okey dookie---yes US militray is crap, that's why India should not buy anything from the US not request any joint exercises w/ it! ( besides the obvious bad things that happen from joint exercises per you astute experience)

Please educate yourself.

Take note of this "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.