Should India get the V-22 Osprey?

plugwater

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When i first saw this in Discovery channel i thought what an great idea and why dont all aircraft's fly that way but the fact is thrust required for VTOL is simply to high and the end result is compromise in performance.

V-22---------------------Costs 115-million$ and carry load is 27,000kgs.

Super Stallion CH-53E----Costs 22-million$ and carry load is 33,000kgs.

Which one you would buy is any ones guess. India should never buy that.
This AC is mainly for carrying troops faster and it does serve that very well.

When did US sell CH-53 for 22 million ? I agree v-22 is costly but its worth it.

Why not compare combat radius and speed of CH-53 with V-22 too ?

India wont buy both CH-53 and V-22.
 

Immanuel

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Its not always having a bigger payload that helps, the mi-26 taking part in the heavy lift chooper contest doesn't mean Chinook is out. The mi-26 alone can lift a chinook but such a large helo presents bigger danger, if one were to be shot down while carryng 60 odd troops, the loss will be a serious tragedy. Every helo is vulnerable to direct rpg fire. Plus V-22 can get to the theater faster, it can fly in fast and low, since it flies faster, its not as vulnerable to rpg hits while down low.
 

Godless-Kafir

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Its not always having a bigger payload that helps, the mi-26 taking part in the heavy lift chooper contest doesn't mean Chinook is out. The mi-26 alone can lift a chinook but such a large helo presents bigger danger, if one were to be shot down while carryng 60 odd troops, the loss will be a serious tragedy. Every helo is vulnerable to direct rpg fire. Plus V-22 can get to the theater faster, it can fly in fast and low, since it flies faster, its not as vulnerable to rpg hits while down low.
Its not even very fast compared to an conventional helicopter not to mention it has a lower service ceiling than an helicopter. Please compare the data, why should anyone pay 4times the same amount for capabilities that are not superior to an helicopter!


Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

plugwater

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Service ceiling is higher for V-22 and combat radius is almost double.
 

Godless-Kafir

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This AC is mainly for carrying troops faster and it does serve that very well.

When did US sell CH-53 for 22 million ? I agree v-22 is costly but its worth it.

Why not compare combat radius and speed of CH-53 with V-22 too ?

India wont buy both CH-53 and V-22.
Dude please compare with the above link i provided, helicopters are always cheap, the Dhruv only costs 8.8million the Super Stallion costs 23 million so the price is right. The combat radius of Stallion is 1000/km compared to V-22s 720/kms. Speed off V-22 is marginally higher at 480kms and Stallion is 315/kms. An speed difference of 150kms is not worth 4times the expense particularly when speed of an helicopter can be increased if more R&D goes for it.
 

Kunal Biswas

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CH-17 or Mi-17 or any normal chopper all are capable enough to put commandos in rooftops so why use ultra expensive V-22 ?
Coz as i mentioned we havent got cells of NSG everywhere..

Also NSG use IL-76 for landing on Airports than carried via MI-17s..

V22 offers the package in one..

This aircraft will mature in few years since its a new model it tends to have lot of troubles. Give it some more time!

We cant operate E-2d from vikra or viraat. So the idea of using v-22 as awacs platform.

Anyway that article is very old and it can land and take off vertically with one engine.
In those few years, Virrat will be retired and Vikramaditya is using ka-31 and IAC1 will be using E-2D..

Article is not so old, The problem with failure of engines will be always there, Its the degin as specified in the article..

[FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times]This copy was provided by a concerned former Marine Corps officer:
Why the V-22 Osprey is Unsafe
[/FONT]
 

plugwater

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Dude please compare with the above link i provided, helicopters are always cheap, the Dhruv only costs 8.8million the Super Stallion costs 23 million so the price is right. The combat radius of Stallion is 1000/km compared to V-22s 720/kms. Speed off V-22 is marginally higher at 480kms and Stallion is 315/kms. An speed difference of 150kms is not worth 4times the expense particularly when speed of an helicopter can be increased if more R&D goes for it.
Nice trick by comparing range of stallion with combat radius of V-22 :p

Americans knew the risk involved in V-22 they would not have done it had they thought it is not feasible.
 

asianobserve

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Its not even very fast compared to an conventional helicopter not to mention it has a lower service ceiling than an helicopter. Please compare the data, why should anyone pay 4times the same amount for capabilities that are not superior to an helicopter!


Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To facilitate the discussion, here are the specs drom the links you provided:

V-22 Performance
Maximum speed: 250 knots (463 km/h, 288 mph) at sea level / 305 kn (565 km/h; 351 mph) at 15,000 ft (4,600 m)[143]
Cruise speed: 241 knots (277 mph, 446 km/h) at sea level
Range: 879 nmi (1,011 mi, 1,627 km)
Combat radius: 390 nmi (426 mi, 722 km)
Ferry range: 1,940 nmi (2,230 mi, 3,590 km) with auxiliary internal fuel tanks
Service ceiling: 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
Rate of climb: 2,320 ft/min (11.8 m/s)
Disc loading: 20.9 lb/ft² at 47,500 lb GW (102.23 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.259 hp/lb (427 W/kg)

ch-53 Performance
Maximum speed: 170 knots (196 mph, 315 km/h)
Cruise speed: 150 kt (173 mph, 278 km/h)
Range: 540 nmi (1,000 km)
Combat radius: 100 mi (160 km) 95 mi
Ferry range: 886 nmi (1,640 km)
Service ceiling: 16,750 ft (5,106 m)
Rate of climb: 2,460 ft/min (12.5 m/s)
Disc loading: 8.95 lb/sq ft ()

If you ask me, looking at these specs it is clear that the V22 has a very comfortable advantage over the CH-53 (as representative of traditional helos) in all parameters.
 

plugwater

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Coz as i mentioned we havent got cells of NSG everywhere..

Also NSG use IL-76 for landing on Airports than carried via MI-17s..

V22 offers the package in one..
We have airports in almost all cities so i favor in using that option.
A squadron of V-22 for NSG alone is a wastage of resources.
In those few years, Virrat will be retired and Vikramaditya is using ka-31 and IAC1 will be using E-2D..
Sorry i meant Vikraant. No way you can operate E-2d from Vikraant.
 

Godless-Kafir

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I was wrong about the range but there are a lot of features like load, cost, altitude which are all not very diffrent from an helicopter but yet you pay 5times more money! I just did not think it was enough bang for the buck.
 

plugwater

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I was wrong about the range but there are a lot of features like load, cost, altitude which are all not very diffrent from an helicopter but yet you pay 5times more money! I just did not think it was enough bang for the buck.
You think they had not known about the cost per aircraft when they started this program ? Its about operating superior aircraft than the others, cost matters but not that much in defense. As i said it is expensive but it has the edge over others.

P.S. service ceiling is better for V-22.
 

hitesh

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Vertol-NASA Tilt-Wing
1959
An advanced Tilt-Wing concept evolved as a joint NASA/Vertol program in the late 1950s that never advanced beyond the wind tunnel stage. A pure Tilt-Wing concept, the craft featured six-propellers driven by a thousand horsepower variable-frequency electric motor. Additional lift was also acquired by double-slotted flaps that covered about 60% of the chord. The extremely small-in-diameter propeller mounts gave the plane a completely different look.


 
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agentperry

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well helicopters have advantage when they have to make maneuverable low level flight whereas in this case it will be very difficult... seeing indian involvement only in hilly tracts, this master piece wont be of any use.
 

asianobserve

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well helicopters have advantage when they have to make maneuverable low level flight whereas in this case it will be very difficult... seeing indian involvement only in hilly tracts, this master piece wont be of any use.
This picture may provide you an idea of the V22's terrain hugging abilities. I don't think the marines will neglect map of th earth flying for insertions. In fact V22s are used for special ops.

 
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ace009

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That looks like Wikiki beach in Hawaii (although it says Florida) - went to Hawaii for vacation - saw a V-22 Osprey flying far off and a US CVN too. Picture of the CVN here ...

US CVN.jpg

(could not get a pict of the V-22) :D

The V-22 can do terrain hugging pretty well. It is one of the reasons the USMC likes it so much. The problems with it's engines as reported by Kunal are true - but it has to do with a basic scientific problem called Vortex Ring State -
Vortex ring state (VRS), also known as settling with power, is a hazardous condition encountered in helicopter flight. It happens when three things occur during flight: A high rate of descent, an airspeed lower than effective translational lift, and when the helicopter is using a large portion of its available power.[citation needed] A helicopter's main rotor typically directs airflow downwards to create lift, but with low horizontal airspeed, it induces a vortex ring. A toroid-shaped path of airflow circumscribes the blade disc, as the airflow moves down through the disc, then outward, up, inward, and then down through the top again. This re-circulation of flow can negate much of the lifting force and cause a catastrophic loss of altitude. Specific to vortex ring state is that the helicopter, operating in its own downwash, is descending through descending air. Applying more power (increasing collective pitch) serves to further accelerate the downwash through which the main-rotor is descending, exacerbating the condition.

In single rotor helicopters, a VRS can be corrected by moving the cyclic forward, which controls the pitch angle of the rotor blade, slightly pitching nose down, and establishing forward flight. In tandem-rotor helicopters, recovery is accomplished through lateral cyclic or pedal input. The aircraft will fly into "clean air", and will be able to regain lift.
It is from the wikipedia - so might not be very technically accurate - but you get the general idea.
The V-22 seems to be less inclined to VRS than average Helo, but if it does get into VRS, it is VERY difficult to come out of it (because of the twin prop-rotors). The USMC trains it's pilots to avoid VRS state and also to recover from it if it happens at all. That seems to have reduced the accidents by a factor of 10 ....

Anyway, the V-22 does serve the function of both a turboprop plane and a medium helo, it can transport troops and equipment far, it can act as a gunship and CAS aircraft. It is the all-in-one feature that makes it so awesome.

The V-22 had flown 3,000 sorties totaling 5,200 hours in Iraq as of July 2008.[86] General George J. Trautman, III praised the increased speed and range of the V-22 over the legacy helicopters in Iraq and said that "it turned his battle space from the size of Texas into the size of Rhode Island."
I think India's special forces should get a squadron of the V-22 and the Indian Marines should get a squadron too. The V-22 can give them the rapid response speed and the air support all in one package. Imagine this, 2 V-22s each stationed at 5 locations in the country (North, South, West, East, North-east) can pretty much cover the whole nation for rapid response special forces - delivering a company of special force commandos within an hour.

In a country where $2 billion is spent on upgrading old Mirages, we can surely spend $2 billion to buy 10+10 V-22s for our special and expeditionary forces. The Indian Marines will kick ass if they get a LHD with V-22s flying off from it. The V-22 can also deploy Light tactical strike vehicles (Growler for USMC), that can also support infantry deployed by the V-22.
 
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