Should IAF buy the A 10 for CAS

[SajeevJino]

Boeing discussing international A-10 Warthog sales '''

Boeing has floated the idea of selling refurbished A-10 Warthogs to other nations as the US Air Force seeks to retire the venerable attack airplane.

The company is currently extending the service life of the air force’s A-10 fleet through a re-winging programme, and it recently delivered its 100th modification with more than 70 modifications left on contract.

At a Boeing-sponsored media event in San Antonio, Texas, today, the company’s chief engineer of off-Boeing programmes, Paul Cejas, suggested the US government might pursue international sales of upgraded A-10s. Dozens of A-10s are currently in near-flyaway storage at the air force’s boneyard facility in Arizona, and could be brought back into the operational fleet at any time.

Cejas says he has no exact customers in mind, but Boeing has "begun early discusssions."

“It’s something we would be interested in, but again, it depends where the air force goes with retirements," he says. “If we go that path we would be looking at a modification. It all depends on what the air force does. We have no jurisdiction, and we’ll support whatever they need and we’re positioned for that.”

Congress has long protected the A-10 from retirement, and fiscal 2016 looks to be no different.

Cejas said it would not be fiscally efficient to cancel the re-winging programme this far into the contract, and Boeing would support any potential sale opportunities abroad should the Pentagon and choose to go that route.

Boeing’s current re-winging contract lasts into the first quarter of 2017 and there are options for more upgrades.

Boeing is the closest thing to a prime contractor for the Fairchild Republic A-10, officially called Thunderbolt II. The company owns the technical data package for modification and upgrade, Cejas says. As of March, there were 283 aircraft in the US active inventory.

No other nation currently operates the A-10, called the "best close air support platform ever" by the general in charge of Air Combat Command.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-discussing-international-a-10-warthog-sales-412606/

 

[laughingbuddha]

Do we have CAS aircraft?
Do we need CAS aircraft?
What has been the IAF doctrine for CAS? Is the jaguar for this role?

 

[SajeevJino]

.

From Vijender K Thakur

The IAF, is not known to have ever expressed an interest in the Warthog. The service has made a doctrinal commitment to multi-role aircraft over single role specialized aircraft. In a previous article we discussed why the IAF's doctrinal commitment may be at odds with the threat scenario facing the country; many analysts predict that India's next war would be fought in the Himalayas. The Warthog's weapon load, maneuverability and precision attack capability would be unmatched along the LAC and LoC, where battle lines would be fluid ruling out CAS from standoff ranges by IAF multi-role aircraft.

In the past the US has repeatedly refused to sell the Warthog to any other country. Interestingly, very shortly after the Warthog was developed, Pakistan tried to acquire the aircraft, but the US turned down the request!

The chances that the PAF is eyeing the deadly aircraft again are pretty high. High enough for the Indian Army to be very concerned. A good way to prevent the Warthog from falling into PAF hands would be for the IAF to acquire the aircraft. The stakes are high enough for the IAF to review its doctrinal disinclination towards dedicated CAS aircraft. Doctrines are never set in stone. Indeed, the IAF's doctrine solicits suggestions for change and improvement.

https://www.myind.net/us-10-international-sales-seizing-opportunity-forestall-danger

 

[anupamsurey]

helicopter gunsips are better suited for such roles -CAS (although with lesser ordinance). when we are buying Apache and developing Rudra and LCH, then what do we need Warthogs for.

 

[anupamsurey]

though getting hands on an
Lockheed AC-130
will be a different thing

 

[Zebra]

The operational cost of A-10 aircraft is high.

 

[SajeevJino]

though getting hands on an
Lockheed AC-130
will be a different thing

there is a Plan of arming the Airbus TATA C 295 M with small caliber cannons and Anti Armour missiles

 

[anupamsurey]

there is a Plan of arming the Airbus TATA C 295 M with small caliber cannons and Anti Armour missiles

atleast another 10 years for waiting ..........another 10 years

 

[jackprince]

though getting hands on an
Lockheed AC-130
will be a different thing

Are you serious? Operating such aircraft needs complete and absolute air dominance, else it will transform into a expensive fireball - not to mention loss of the crew given how many MANPAD is available in either of our possible adversaries. Also, the cost on the structure of the Aircraft 'coz of the recoils of the guns is huge and service life is way too low for India to afford one.

Both A-10 and AC-130 is redundant to Indian need and only fanboy wishes. India doesn't plan to occupy another place after invading as USA did in Iraq or Afghanistan. AC-130 is basically a non-precise terror weapon to intimidate people, which will drop if even half-sophisticated AA system finds it.

Also, A-10 was to be phased out but given a temporary lease of life given how planned F-35 induction bungled. Even then manufacture has been closed and restarting it for a few for indian need would cost too much to be feasible. There is also the big brother attitude of USA to every stuff they sell to other nations.

Apaches or LCHs can do very well i n CAS missions, and Jag/LCA combo for deep penetration strike will suffice. Also, if you are going for a dedicated CAS aircraft, why not get Su-34 with its latest system and or Su-25 if you are interested in restarting production, and Su-25 is proven hardy (as good as warthog) and cheaper than A-10.

 

[Compersion]

i think we are able to build a a-10 type airplane (with and without jet engine) ... it ought to be done ... the image of a monster with a big gu(s)n and massive and large number of surface to air ammunition and reach and duration of flight (much more compared to helicopter) would be brilliant

but

there is also armed UAV which is more tasty in the long term. would do both.

** would not mind if we took some a-10s for training while we build our beauties.

 

[jackprince]

i think we are able to build a a-10 type airplane (with and without jet engine) ... it ought to be done ... the image of a monster with a big gu(s)n and massive and large number of surface to air ammunition and reach and duration of flight (much more compared to helicopter) would be brilliant

but

there is also armed UAV which is more tasty in the long term. would do both.

** would not mind if we took some a-10s for training while we build our beauties.

You have to look into the operational requirement before inducting a platform. Unlike USA, India's policy for any major conflict with Pak has been adopted as Offensive Defense like Cold Start Doctrine. But given the breadth of Pakistan and proximity of any probable combat zone, A-10's long-leg is not required. As A-10 being a fixed-wing AC has its own drawbacks like requiring a runaway with more extensive installations to support it, when Apaches or LCHs can operate with far less support system with practically from any place giving it more versatility and surprise quotient for the enemy. Also, helicopters with their ground-hugging flight can be more stealthy and therefore more dangerous to the enemy.

In case of any conflict with China, I doubt India can achieve complete air-dominance making sorties of A-10 more suicidal. Also, mountain terrain of possible combat zone with China can give a rotary machine more flexibility, cover and its ability to hover more accuracy than a CAS AC.

Current gen. UAV is anything but feasible for CAS role given their limited load. However, the way the tech is progressing, CAS UAV may very well be a good idea given the high risk environment a CAS AC has to operate in.

You want to get some A-10 to train when India builds its own A-10? Why, Jaguars or Mig-27 are all gone? What is the armed forces' policy do you think and how much money do India have you think to waste around buying a no. ACs and whole maintenance set up for them, train crew for them and just because what, not to use them in combat, but to train pilots when some still unplanned AC come to production? Get your logic and rationale straight.

 

[Anikastha]

Can any one tell me why IAF retired Foxbats( mig-25) as it was powerfull beast.Even PAF has no bird in its list which can come very close to Foxbat.

 

[jackprince]

Can any one tell me why IAF retired Foxbats( mig-25) as it was powerfull beast.Even PAF has no bird in its list which can come very close to Foxbat.

Foxbats were old, costing money to keep them than feasible, satellite and drones could do what they could do w/o risking a human being and development of missile tech. which could bring it down.

Foxbats in IAF were basically for one specialised purpose only - recon. They were not built for air combat. You wouldn't want to match an interceptor with a air superiority fighter like f-16 or mirag f1. The fighters would wind hands down. As when they could possibly outrun an enemy fighter, they cannot outrun the advance missiles of the fighters.

Also, I guess unavailability of the parts could be a reason since after collapse of USSR, all the Russian weapon system faced the scarcity of spare parts.

 

[Anikastha]

Foxbats were old, costing money to keep them than feasible, satellite and drones could do what they could do w/o risking a human being and development of missile tech. which could bring it down.

Foxbats in IAF were basically for one specialised purpose only - recon. They were not built for air combat. You wouldn't want to match an interceptor with a air superiority fighter like f-16 or mirag f1. The fighters would wind hands down. As when they could possibly outrun an enemy fighter, they cannot outrun the advance missiles of the fighters.

Also, I guess unavailability of the parts could be a reason since after collapse of USSR, all the Russian weapon system faced the scarcity of spare parts.

And I heard that IAF Su-30MKI pilots were asked not use aircraft's radar at any cost while in excercise with US and British counterparts..Why???

 

[jackprince]

And I heard that IAF Su-30MKI pilots were asked not use aircraft's radar at any cost while in exercise with US and British counterparts..Why???

In the redflag?

It was because the radars of Su-30MKI is of russian origin and a radar signature can identify a type of AC to other AC. Also, receiving an active radar's signature can tell a lot about power of the Radar to range of the radar to how advnce the radar actuially is. Since, USA is not particularly a friend of Russia, or to be frank of India, and MKI having the latest development of Radar of Russian origin, I guess IAF by itself or by prodiing of Russians decided not to divulge the details of the radar to the nations participating in redflag. The same logic must have been maintained during exercises with Britts and French too. Even in the next upcoming events, I don't think MKI is going turn the Zhuk-AE to its full power if at all.

Redflag is one of the places where all kind of snooping - albeit friendly - is done. If i recall lcorrectly (or incorrectly) last year French sent a tiny team to take part in Redflag just to snoop on F-22.

There's a whole dedicated thread to Redflag. Find it and you will find all your answers.

 

[blueblood]

A-10 was designed to stem the massive Soviet armour formations pouring in Fulda Gap and buy enough time for US war machine to mobilize.

How is it useful for India? Pakistan's upgraded Type-59s and rejected Chinese tanks don't look that scary to me. As far as CAS is concerned, upgraded Jaguar and Tejas should be more than enough and far far less expensive to maintain and use.