Shanghai free-trade zone will hit Hong Kong quicker than expected,

[cw2005]

They said the new airport in Quangzhou will overtake Hong Kong airport as number one in the world. They said Shanghai will take over Hong Kong as the main financial center. They said this and that. It did not happen. Yes PRC has been developing in a very fast manner, but the fundamental difference remains unchanged between Hong Kong and PRC. The legal system, the freedom, the respect of different opinion, the respect of law, the education and the people. A person from PRC lives in Hong Kong for several years and will be answering Hong Kong when he is asked where does he come from.

 

[rockdog]

They said the new airport in Quangzhou will overtake Hong Kong airport as number one in the world. They said Shanghai will take over Hong Kong as the main financial center. They said this and that. It did not happen. Yes PRC has been developing in a very fast manner, but the fundamental difference remains unchanged between Hong Kong and PRC. The legal system, the freedom, the respect of different opinion, the respect of law, the education and the people. A person from PRC lives in Hong Kong for several years and will be answering Hong Kong when he is asked where does he come from.

Agree, HK always shows the best sample to PRC and the its leadership, how a modern and democratic society should be, it's can't be changed by any "hardware" like Per GPD or airport, it's all software matter.

HK should be the best model PRC should follow even PRC will be no.1 GDP by 2020 or 2025, thanks to the first two generations Chinese leader didn't get it back, otherwise, we would lost the most precious asset.

Look at Goa to India, we should feel very lucky...

 

[rockdog]

Shanghai free-trade zone will hit Hong Kong quicker than expected, says Li Ka-shing

Hong Kong needs to develop more quickly or risk being left behind, warns tycoon, as he urges people to unite to improve the city


########################

End of Hong Kong?

Is there any way Hong Kong could stave of this challenge?

With the demise of Hong Kong, the 'conscience' of the Chinese people will be dead!

China's 75% GDP is at coastline area and neighboring 300KM, and also 60% population.

And along the coastline of whole China, there are three economic centers: Northern China: Beijing-Tianjing- Bo Ocean economic Circle, Middle China: Yangtze Rive Triangle (Shanghai centric), Southern China: Zhu River Triangle (Shenzhen-Hong Kong centric).

For those three big economic circles, each of them has around 1200km-1500km to others.

If by 2020-2030, China will be almost same GDP size as USA, i can't see any reason why we can't have 3 financial power-center: Beijing-Tianjing, Shanghai, Shenzhen-Hong Kong.

And there is even a further discussion, in next 20-30 years, the central government would think the Hong Kong would merger the Shenzhen, and make it as part of Hong Kong SAR, for deeper integration with Zhu River Triangle.

 

[Ray]

Hong Kong is culturally totally different from the brainwashed Communist mainland.

There lies the nub of the issue!

 

[t_co]

They said the new airport in Quangzhou will overtake Hong Kong airport as number one in the world. They said Shanghai will take over Hong Kong as the main financial center. They said this and that. It did not happen. Yes PRC has been developing in a very fast manner, but the fundamental difference remains unchanged between Hong Kong and PRC. The legal system, the freedom, the respect of different opinion, the respect of law, the education and the people. A person from PRC lives in Hong Kong for several years and will be answering Hong Kong when he is asked where does he come from.

A more accurate statement would be that it has not happened - yet. Shanghai is fast catching up to Hong Kong, and the more Hong Kongers protest against the Chinese government, the more the Chinese government will redirect economic gains away from them.

 

[cw2005]

I must say Hongkongers are with true grit. They supported Snowdon and give up visa free from USA. They hold candle light gethering to remember June-4 events. Half million of them took the street to protest against the Central Government's imposing Chinese security law in Hong Kong and yet not turned over one car, not even one person was arrested nor injured and no shop was looted. Yet, the Central Government said Hong Kong is not ready for democracy. Would Shanghai behaves same in similar situation in near future? Judge yourself.

 

[cw2005]

The central Government treats Hong Kong nicely because Taiwan is yet to return to China. This is a simple fact that all HongKongers know. They are living in borrowed time and that is why they send their younger generation to USA, Canada, Australia, Europe etc. PRC dislikes Hong Kong people because its own people living close to Hong Kong are now asking simple question; "In the same country, why only Hong Kong enjoy free speech, uncensored internet, freely condemn the government, won law suit over the government and protest without arrest nor subsequent consequence?" Just try to do any of these in the so called "Shanghai Free Zone" and you will see the different.

 

[no smoking]

Its good to have you agree on many of the points I said. Looking at the small bits of information you have shared:

What will this supposed test farm be like. Will it be like "Hong Kong". How to manage the entry and exit of this zone (people and financial instruments).
What don't you share the books if not articles one can read to get a better understanding. Here are some I found:

"China Censors Eye Internet Freedom In Shanghai Trade Zone, Says SCMP"

China Censors Eye Internet Freedom In Shanghai Trade Zone, Says SCMP - Forbes

Quotes:

What exactly will investors be permitted to do inside the FTZ? Will China's currency be fully convertible? Who adjudicates commercial disputes?... Will I be allowed to update my status on Facebook?

How wonderful. It's more cost-effective than providing to Zone residents a VPN account to get around the blocking, which is what most free thinkers use now to read unimpeded what the rest of the English-speaking world is reading. I got a taste of this geo-unblocking in June at the Fortune Global Forum in Chengdu. Inside the aptly-named Shangri-La Hotel, where the CEOs gathered, the wi-fi was magically uncensored. See, isn't China just like any other capitalist country? Did you see my status update? No need to break their illusion. Leave the hotel, though, and the old rules applied in Chengdu, as elsewhere in China. No Facebook, New York Times, or Bloomberg (banned last year after reporting on Xi Jinping's wealthy relatives). So this is what life in Shanghai's FTZ could be like.


"Will Shanghai be free to trade?"
Will Shanghai be free to trade? - Craig Stephen's This Week in China - MarketWatch

"looking like a global financial center has been easier than behaving like one."

It would not be unreasonable to say Shanghai has been going backwards in terms of being a functioning domestic financial center, never mind a global one.It looks as if Hong Kong can relax for a few more years before worrying that its place will be usurped by Shanghai

"China to lift ban on Facebook, Twitter in Shanghai Free Trade Zone"
China to lift ban on Facebook, Twitter in Shanghai Free Trade Zone

Government sources who were knowledgeable about the decision told the Post that the authority in charge of the Hong Kong-like FTZ in Shanghai, the first such zone on the mainland, would also welcome bids from foreign telecommunications companies for licences to provide internet services within the new special economic zone.

Please stop using too much quote, it make the reading too damn hard!

Simply answer your question: I don't know and I don't think CPC has any detailed plan for it! This is another round of reform, simply no one can forecast the results of each new policy. So don't be shocked if CPC terminates the whole plan if it doesn't work out!

My personal belief is that Hong Kong will still be the condom used by PRC. There is more chance of PRC loosing its edge compared to Hong Kong loosing its edge. Yes if PRC fails Hong Kong will suffer temporarily.

No matter how you think of Hong Kong's edge, it is now a part of PRC. I really don't see how they could survive when the whole country fails! You can use the example before 1997, at that time they were a part of British.

What you say makes no sense. The stock market is one aspect of the condom (its funny you dont doubt whats in the condom). I repeat PRC companies were listed on the Hong Kong stock exchange with loose and slack requirements. People also include lax accounting standards. Tell me where else has this happened and in vast figures to PRC (you can include Shanghai).

The same problem is happening in every stock market with lots of companies from every part of world. Unless you have some specific evidences, no one can claim that Hongkong stock market deliberately lower its standards towards mainland companies. So, show me your evidence!

Whats the reason for Shanghai Trade Zone. Why is there trade flowing through Hong Kong to PRC. Why are all of the multinational corporations in PRC located in Hong Kong. Have you read the contracts of these multinational corporations. I wonder what is the law applied and if there has been any disputes.

What is the reason? How about being closer to your biggiest clients within asia?
And the fact is there are lots of multinational corporations are moving their headoffice to Shanghai from HK and Singapore.
Check this:

Multinational companies rank Shanghai, Hong Kong and Singapore as the top 3 locations for headquarters in the region | Press archive 2011 | Press | Media | Roland Berger

Honeywell shifts its head office in Asia to Shanghai - Taipei Times

Quote:"About 80 multinational companies, or a third of those with headquarters in China, had regional head offices in Shanghai as of September, according to the Web site of the city's Foreign Investment Service Center."

Are you trying to teach me a lesson. Why don't you tell me what will happen in the next 10 years (will it be timed to the [x] amount of years when PRC has been promised full democracy). In fact why don't you tell me what will happen in next 1 (one) year. To make it easy for you why don't you tell me what will happen in Shanghai Trade Zone.

That is the difference between you and me! I don't speak about things I don't know or I have no kowledge about.
By the way, PRC has never promised "full democracy"! That is something I am sure!

For the Shanghai Trade Zone (test farm) the person writing the book must be a big adult and knows what they are doing am i right ...

The CPC used to call their reform as "crossing the river by touching the stone hide in the water", which means they don't know where a new policy will leads to. Well these words still stand today. The person whoever write the book is no better than an analyst writing about next year in stock market!

After that ask yourself will PRC's currency be fully convertible?

And ask yourself why was it not done in the past 10 years. Why is there ambiguity on when it will be done. Why is there hesitation. What has PRC told to everyone. Why this sudden attention on Shanghai Free trade zone (and not Shenzhen Trade Zone). I guess I am a kid asking children questions.

As long as PRC's economy keeps growing as planned, Chinese will need a fully convertible RMB. But free convertible RMB will requires an open financial market that is something worries Chinese. After all, one of the main reasons that Chinese avoided the 97 financial crisis was a close financial market!

What is the character of PRC economy to allow it for fully convertible yuan. I ask again why do you think that Mr Li said what he said. He is saying that fully convertible yuan will happen. But when and how.

That is a question worth billions of dollars! Even if I know the answer, I will not tell you.

The credibility on reading about PRC economy is low and untrustworthy. If you dress up in a smart suit doesn't mean you are rich. Perhaps you can share in a simple one sentence what and when the fully convertible yaun currency will appear. You know when will PRC play by the rules.

Thousands of multinational corporations are making their strategy by reading PRC economy everyday. Guess what? They are making big money from this market. Obviously, there are lots of people know what is happening and what will happen in this country, they just don't want to share it with you.

That means there is no danger for the protests and universal suffrage to Hong Kong. The boss thinks it has no significant leverage.I wonder where Mr Li is investing these days. I wonder if he was asked by the PRC leadership why dont you invest more in PRC (hint).

I wonder if he was even asked this question. PRC is becoming quite picky on the type of investment.

Occupy wall street was held in USA that some say has the aptitude to hold such protests. How about Hong Kong and PRC. Also what is the goal of central hong kong (is it the same to occupy wall street):

Protest to take over Central in July 2014 if promises made by the Central People's Government for universal suffrage were not realized in the 2017 Chief Executive Election and 2020 Legislative Council Elections.

The principles of the movements would be deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King.


You must be proud and influenced by these and also to see such noble actions in PRC region.

Occupy Central (2014) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why should I be proud or influenced by these?
As I always pointed out, there are still lots of problems in this country, democracy is only one of them and the one not on the top. I am more concerned of the living standard of the bottom of this society than if I can vote.

If PRC intent is to loosen the importance of Hong Kong "¦ will the people of Hong Kong demand less independence. Like I said PRC will not loosen the importance of Hong Kong they would be stupid. But can PRC prevent something from happening in Hong Kong that is a bigger question.

Like I said, Hongkong used to be a window of China to link the world. Now the whole door is open, the importance of window certainly will go down.
It is not the intent of anyone but the natural results of Chinese economic development.

This also relates to the question what is the Shanghai Free Trade zone. That's why the above article is fascinating and what Mr Li says is important. If it is a simple test farm why did Mr. Li say what he did.

Because this simple test farm reflects a dangerous trend: the importance of HK to PRC is going down. 20 years ago, a mainland city to replace HK is not even thinkable!

That means there is no danger for the protests and universal suffrage to Hong Kong. And Hong Kong is not important to PRC. Why does PRC hate Hong Kong suddenly. When do you think Hong Kong people will start saying "Hong Kong has good policies for PRC. Hong Kong has done a lot for PRC and it better treat Hong Kong well".

Again, nobody hate HK!
Simply put this way: HK used to be a star employee to CPC--she alone bring in 80% sales of the whole company. Today, however, she counts only 20% (maybe still the top one). Do you hate her? NO! She is just not worth the star treatment you used to give.

You must be proud (secretly) that Hong Kong has more democracy compared to PRC. It must make you proud Chinese to see a region have such policies (and also Taiwan to some extent). Unless of course you are not allowed to participate in it. In that case it must make you wonder why Hong Kong people are in a "Special Administrative Region".

Again, I am not proud because I don't care!

Also what happened 60 years ago. You mean the Communist Party defeated KMT in a civil war. And what figures are you using [X] million out of how many.

Yes, a party supported by the poor completely wipe out a party consists of richs and nobles!

I will be shocked if you think Hong Kong is no longer important to PRC. It will be stupid thinking.

Stupid or not is not judged by you!
The people who thinks HK is not important as before to PRC know far better than you because they are the ones lead China from a poor agricultural country to a second largest economy in the world and number one industrial country globally. I have enough confidence on their judgement and zero on yours.

 

[Compersion]

I have enough confidence on their judgement and zero on yours.

Its good to have your response that is more reasonable compared to previously. Its good talking with you. We take it step by step:

Please stop using too much quote, it make the reading too damn hard!

Reading is not the same as using imagination.

Simply answer your question: I don't know and I don't think CPC has any detailed plan for it! This is another round of reform, simply no one can forecast the results of each new policy. So don't be shocked if CPC terminates the whole plan if it doesn't work out!

I believe the underlined part is most likely at this moment. And I wont be shocked. For the basic premise that PRC does not have the will power and guts and would be stupid to diminish Hong Kong value. The planned protests in Hong Kong are considered subversive by PRC leadership. Perhaps the PRC leadership thinks that Shanghai trade zone (one country two systems) can be controlled without any subversive activities and hence this doctrine of trying to frighten and threaten Hong Kong. Perhaps the Hong Kong people see through the true intent of PRC leadership and are not worried. This whole "brainstorming" exercise by PRC leadership has made Mr Li say what he said and if I was the Hong Kong public I would think carefully why Mr Li said what he did.

Like I said PRC will not loosen the importance of Hong Kong if they did it would be stupid. But can PRC prevent something from happening in Hong Kong that is a bigger question. And you do after-all say Hong Kong is not important to PRC.

I repeat when do you think Hong Kong people will start saying "Hong Kong has good policies for PRC. Hong Kong has done a lot for PRC and it better PRC treats Hong Kong well".

No matter how you think of Hong Kong's edge, it is now a part of PRC. I really don't see how they could survive when the whole country fails! You can use the example before 1997, at that time they were a part of British.

If we take the British to be [x] and PRC to be [y]. When PRC fails can hong kong be part of [z]. Like you said it happened before 1997 (transfer of ownership). There is also possibility of [a] you know singapore style. But that is deviating from the topic. I really doubt PRC will do anything to diminish Hong Kong worth. And also Hong Kong is part of PRC with different rules and principles thats why it is a called a "Special Administration Region". But can PRC prevent something from happening in Hong Kong. It's a confrontation people are saying.

That is why the above article is fascinating and why did Mr. Li say what he said and Mr Wing-Kee say what he said.

The same problem is happening in every stock market with lots of companies from every part of world. Unless you have some specific evidences, no one can claim that Hongkong stock market deliberately lower its standards towards mainland companies. So, show me your evidence!

Go to the hong kong market regulator and read the listing rules history for PRC companies.

The hong kong maket regulator listing rules allowing certain requirements and exceptions to the rules in order for a PRC company to allow a listing in hong kong exchange market. To start with what is the law applied to PRC companies listing on hong kong stock exchange. And what are the accounting standards. If you are a PRC citizen and you don't know about this I would be shocked.

With Shenzen and Shanghai stock exchange why list on Hong Kong stock exchange (another reason why Hong Kong will not lose importance). Because it is a Political Selection.

The process of issuing an IPO in Hong Kong was a rationing system with quotas allocated by the PRC leadership. Due to such political selection (condom use) the quality of PRC companies can be questioned.

On top of all the above the PRC companies are manipulated by PRC domestic policies that leave investors at risk.

What is the reason? How about being closer to your biggiest clients within asia?
And the fact is there are lots of multinational corporations are moving their headoffice to Shanghai from HK and Singapore.
Check this:
Quote:"About 80 multinational companies, or a third of those with headquarters in China, had regional head offices in Shanghai as of September, according to the Web site of the city's Foreign Investment Service Center."

I started to read your articles but after looking at the dates I realised they are not persuasive. I have not said there are no regional offices in Shanghai and also there is no manufacturing management control from shanghai to manage MNC assets (factories and manufacturing – not financial aspects). I repeat all MNC (100%) that are in PRC will have an office in Hong Kong. But not all MNC that are in PRC will have an office in Shanghai. Some people are even questioning the profit made by MNC in PRC.

Also the law applied to MNC in PRC have you thought about that. Hong Kong will not loose its edge at least not the way the PRC is going about it.

That is the difference between you and me! I don't speak about things I don't know or I have no kowledge about. By the way, PRC has never promised "full democracy"! That is something I am sure!

Read the statements of PRC leadership (see below). Unless they have double meanings on purpose to try and fool the populace. You know creating hope for suckers. Some say the PRC leadership promised democracy to prevent them from being overthrown.

China's tentative steps towards democracy

China's tentative steps towards democracy | Steven Hill | Comment is free | theguardian.com

In September 2010, President Hu gave a speech in Hong Kong in which he called for new thinking about Chinese democracy. Said Hu:

"There is a need to "¦ hold democratic elections according to the law; have democratic decision-making, democratic management, as well as democratic supervision; safeguard people's right to know, to participate, to express and to supervise."

His remarks elaborated on previous comments from Chinese premier Wen Jiabao, delivered in Shenzhen, the coastal free enterprise zone at the forefront of China's economic revolution. Wen said that without reforms of the political system, gains from reforms of the economic system would go down the drain. Political reform is necessary, said Wen, to sustain the nation's breakneck economic growth, including opportunities for citizens to criticise and monitor the government.

Please don't pretend and you gain more respect making reasoned statements. That also validates what you say more. I have no problem to sit with you across a table and share a beer with you. That's the beauty of talking we get to understand each other more.

If your contention is the word "full" try to think why I put it there.

The CPC used to call their reform as "crossing the river by touching the stone hide in the water", which means they don't know where a new policy will leads to. Well these words still stand today. The person whoever write the book is no better than an analyst writing about next year in stock market!

Your analogy is good to the eyes. But to the mind its ridiculous. Why did Mr. Li say what he said and why did Mr Wing-Kee say what he said.
Have you add the equation of the Hong Kong people. Are they a stone hidden in the water that PRC can push down on.

That fact is that it is unknown what and why Shanghai Trade Zone will happen. People are more inclined to think that it is a frightening and threatening tactic used by PRC against Hong Kong because of the planned protests and universal suffrage demand.

When the first person goes to jail for deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King the PRC will wake up. Will that happen is why we are talking here and that is why the article above is fascinating.

As long as PRC's economy keeps growing as planned, Chinese will need a fully convertible RMB. But free convertible RMB will requires an open financial market that is something worries Chinese. After all, one of the main reasons that Chinese avoided the 97 financial crisis was a close financial market!

With a closed financial system the PRC will avoid all the world financial crisis. But what will happen to the world when the PRC financial crisis happens.

The need for fully convertible RMB is to allow PRC to integrate into the world economic structure that plays by the rules and by market reality. One important aspect you mention briefly that needs elaborating is "open financial market is something that worries PRC leadership". Because PRC leadership worry a plunge will create problems that they will not be able to control. Hence to keep playing the same tune.

But the wonderful question is why did Mr Li and Mr Wing Kee say what they said.

To repeat the quotes from the article:

"It has different aspects, including financial services. When the yuan becomes fully convertible, it will benefit the development of Shanghai."

"Wang said the country had more than a son, referring to the several hubs, but it would reserve the best policies for Hong Kong," said Chan Wing-kee.

The article is really one for thought.

That is a question worth billions of dollars! Even if I know the answer, I will not tell you.

Yes it is an important question worth discussing. When will the RMB be fully convertible. And does Hong Kong have a role in its determination.

According to the article yes.

Thousands of multinational corporations are making their strategy by reading PRC economy everyday. Guess what? They are making big money from this market. Obviously, there are lots of people know what is happening and what will happen in this country, they just don't want to share it with you.

Hence the discussion by PRC leadership for a Shanghai Trade Zone. You make contradicting statements.

I wonder if he was even asked this question. PRC is becoming quite picky on the type of investment.

Why did he say what he said. And don't underestimate the value of Mr Li to PRC leadership and PRC investment. In fact dont underestimate Mr Li to Hong Kong leadership and Hong Kong investment. In fact dont underestimate Mr Li to UK leadership and UK investment.

Why should I be proud or influenced by these?

As I always pointed out, there are still lots of problems in this country, democracy is only one of them and the one not on the top. I am more concerned of the living standard of the bottom of this society than if I can vote.

That means there is no danger for the protests and universal suffrage to Hong Kong as they have no influence over you. Have you told the PRC leadership this.

Like I said, Hongkong used to be a window of China to link the world. Now the whole door is open, the importance of window certainly will go down.
It is not the intent of anyone but the natural results of Chinese economic development.

I personally think Hong Kong has gained in importance not lessened. PRC leadership will not be able to replicate what Hong Kong has provided them and continues to provide them and will provide them. But can PRC control what happens in Hong Kong and what Hong Kong people think. I am only asking these questions that I see because of the article above.

Because this simple test farm reflects a dangerous trend: the importance of HK to PRC is going down. 20 years ago, a mainland city to replace HK is not even thinkable!

When was the Joint Declaration of the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the People's Republic of China on the Question of Hong Kong signed.

Sino-British Joint Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also when was the hong kong constitution adopted:

Hong Kong Basic Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A mainland (PRC) city to replace Hong Kong is not possible. For PRC leadership to discuss this means that is being done without choice (you know unavoidable and inescapable) .

It has been forced onto them because of the above and because of (important) Hong Kong.

The pertinent question by PRC leadership is what to do with Hong Kong people and their demand for democracy, universal suffrage and now planned protests of occupy central hong kong the principles of which is to demand for deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

For PRC leadership to think about Hong Kong this way means they are important and in fact gained importance over the years.

Again, nobody hate HK!
Simply put this way: HK used to be a star employee to CPC--she alone bring in 80% sales of the whole company. Today, however, she counts only 20% (maybe still the top one). Do you hate her? NO! She is just not worth the star treatment you used to give.

First you imply that you hate hong kong and now you imply that you don't. Next you say hong kong is not important and now you say hong kong is important but not special. Next you will say hong kong is special but PRC is a developing country (and would prefer to not talk about hong kong and talk about PRC only).

I have a simple quote for you:

"Wang said the country had more than a son, referring to the several hubs, but it would reserve the best policies for Hong Kong," said Chan Wing-kee.

Also please refer to the articles on Shanghai Trade zone above.

Again, I am not proud because I don't care!

You must be secretly thinking more and more about Hong Kong and this democracy question. Its different compared to Taiwan as the process in Hong Kong is led by the people and is not separated by sea. Also there are legal documents to support Hong Kong on its path.

Secretly you must be thinking Hong Kong is special it has better policies and rules compared to PRC. The people of hong kong even have western education and institutions as well as free speech, protest, and democratic traditions and rule of law.

Why else would hong kong be successful. Is it all down to PRC.

Secretly you want to participate. If not out of a billion people in PRC how many would secretly be thinking along these lines. And what do you think PRC leadership is thinking.

Yes, a party supported by the poor completely wipe out a party consists of richs and nobles!

Like you said that you are now fearful of these people. The same ones that supported the PRC leadership and blindly followed them are now thinking what and why. The reason why manufacturing became successful in PRC has the origin to such things and is facing hurdles now.

Now ask yourself out of 24 hours in a day what does the PRC leadership spend its most time on. Compare that to 1 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. And think about the next 1 year and 5 years.

Stupid or not is not judged by you!

I am not asking you to judge me but I am only repeating what others have told me.

The people who thinks HK is not important as before to PRC know far better than you because they are the ones lead China from a poor agricultural country to a second largest economy in the world and number one industrial country globally. I have enough confidence on their judgement and zero on yours.

Not only you but people of Hong Kong and the world sure wish the PRC leadership know what they are doing.

Because everyone knows what happens when the PRC run out of options and cannot control their people in their region. One recent example is below:

Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[no smoking]

Its good to have your response that is more reasonable compared to previously. Its good talking with you. We take it step by step:

No, my friend, you need to use your brain instead of your heart!

I believe the underlined part is most likely at this moment. And I wont be shocked. For the basic premise that PRC does not have the will power and guts and would be stupid to diminish Hong Kong value. The planned protests in Hong Kong are considered subversive by PRC leadership. Perhaps the PRC leadership thinks that Shanghai trade zone (one country two systems) can be controlled without any subversive activities and hence this doctrine of trying to frighten and threaten Hong Kong. Perhaps the Hong Kong people see through the true intent of PRC leadership and are not worried. This whole "brainstorming" exercise by PRC leadership has made Mr Li say what he said and if I was the Hong Kong public I would think carefully why Mr Li said what he did.

Excuse me, no matter you think or you say, PRC leaders is setting up the new free zone with or without HK public worrying!

Like I said PRC will not loosen the importance of Hong Kong if they did it would be stupid. But can PRC prevent something from happening in Hong Kong that is a bigger question. And you do after-all say Hong Kong is not important to PRC.

No, I didn't say HK is not important to PRC. What I said is that HK is not as important as before! Now there are other city is more important than HK. Actually, before 1949, Shanghai was far more influential than HK. Now, Shanghai has become the biggiest port in the world:

Top 50 World Container Ports | World Shipping Council

I repeat when do you think Hong Kong people will start saying "Hong Kong has good policies for PRC. Hong Kong has done a lot for PRC and it better PRC treats Hong Kong well".

I repeat: doesn't matter! If you cannt prove your value to your boss, your boss won't give a damn whatever you say!

If we take the British to be [x] and PRC to be [y]. When PRC fails can hong kong be part of [z]. Like you said it happened before 1997 (transfer of ownership). There is also possibility of [a] you know singapore style. But that is deviating from the topic. I really doubt PRC will do anything to diminish Hong Kong worth.

Again, no one is diminishing HK worth, it is simply a natural trend when other parts of country is catching up.
I really don't see how HK can become singapore (China won't allow it; HK can't afford it!)

And also Hong Kong is part of PRC with different rules and principles thats why it is a called a "Special Administration Region". But can PRC prevent something from happening in Hong Kong. It's a confrontation people are saying.

Yes, they can! When the whole city is living upan the supplies from mainland, from food, electricity to water. And even major income is from the contract with PRC. There is no need to confront people. There is no big move can be made without PRC permission. That is why Mr Li made that comment as he know HK is in no position to say no to PRC.

Go to the hong kong market regulator and read the listing rules history for PRC companies.

The hong kong maket regulator listing rules allowing certain requirements and exceptions to the rules in order for a PRC company to allow a listing in hong kong exchange market. To start with what is the law applied to PRC companies listing on hong kong stock exchange. And what are the accounting standards. If you are a PRC citizen and you don't know about this I would be shocked.

Mainland has been using different legal system and accounting standard (if they have) since 1949, certainly you have to set up special rule for them. I don't see anything wrong as long as these companies comply with these rules!

With Shenzen and Shanghai stock exchange why list on Hong Kong stock exchange (another reason why Hong Kong will not lose importance). Because it is a Political Selection.

Because foreign investors are hardly allowed to invest in Shenzhen and Shanghai stock market!

The process of issuing an IPO in Hong Kong was a rationing system with quotas allocated by the PRC leadership. Due to such political selection (condom use) the quality of PRC companies can be questioned.

On top of all the above the PRC companies are manipulated by PRC domestic policies that leave investors at risk.

First, you claim that HK stock market is the condemn usd by PRC to screw the world;
Now, you claim that quality of PRC companies can be questioned in HK market!
How can you contradict youself so much?

I started to read your articles but after looking at the dates I realised they are not persuasive. I have not said there are no regional offices in Shanghai and also there is no manufacturing management control from shanghai to manage MNC assets (factories and manufacturing – not financial aspects). I repeat all MNC (100%) that are in PRC will have an office in Hong Kong. But not all MNC that are in PRC will have an office in Shanghai. Some people are even questioning the profit made by MNC in PRC.

But the paper did mention that some of MNC are moving their regional head office from HK or singapore to Shanghai.

Almost 400 MNCs have their Asia HQs in Shanghai

Also the law applied to MNC in PRC have you thought about that. Hong Kong will not loose its edge at least not the way the PRC is going about it.

Well, if MNC wants to make profit from mainland, they have to live with mainland law. HK used to be a window for MNC to access the mainland market. Now the door is open, why do you still use the window?

Read the statements of PRC leadership (see below). Unless they have double meanings on purpose to try and fool the populace. You know creating hope for suckers. Some say the PRC leadership promised democracy to prevent them from being overthrown.

China's tentative steps towards democracy

China's tentative steps towards democracy | Steven Hill | Comment is free | theguardian.com

Ok, tell me where did Mr HU give any detail about this democracy?
What law?
Who make the law?
Who make the decision?
Who supervise?

Your analogy is good to the eyes. But to the mind its ridiculous. Why did Mr. Li say what he said and why did Mr Wing-Kee say what he said.
Have you add the equation of the Hong Kong people. Are they a stone hidden in the water that PRC can push down on.

Comparing to Hongkong people, the mainland public is a stone with 300 times size, do you think which one PRC leaders should care more?

That fact is that it is unknown what and why Shanghai Trade Zone will happen. People are more inclined to think that it is a frightening and threatening tactic used by PRC against Hong Kong because of the planned protests and universal suffrage demand.

It is your think, not people's think. At least Chinese doesn't think so!

When the first person goes to jail for deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King the PRC will wake up. Will that happen is why we are talking here and that is why the article above is fascinating.

Maybe, but that won't happen until most of Chinese have a same living standard as HK! Otherwise, CPC should've collapsed in 1989!

With a closed financial system the PRC will avoid all the world financial crisis. But what will happen to the world when the PRC financial crisis happens.

Very simple, financial crisis!

The need for fully convertible RMB is to allow PRC to integrate into the world economic structure that plays by the rules and by market reality. One important aspect you mention briefly that needs elaborating is "open financial market is something that worries PRC leadership". Because PRC leadership worry a plunge will create problems that they will not be able to control. Hence to keep playing the same tune.

That is partially true!

Hence the discussion by PRC leadership for a Shanghai Trade Zone. You make contradicting statements.

What contradicting?

Why did he say what he said. And don't underestimate the value of Mr Li to PRC leadership and PRC investment. In fact dont underestimate Mr Li to Hong Kong leadership and Hong Kong investment. In fact dont underestimate Mr Li to UK leadership and UK investment.

No one underestimate anything. You just don't know some basic knowledge about his business. His investments focus on real estate, financial investment. But these 2 sections are least needed by PRC.

That means there is no danger for the protests and universal suffrage to Hong Kong as they have no influence over you. Have you told the PRC leadership this.

Do you need to tell anyone if nobody care about it?

I personally think Hong Kong has gained in importance not lessened. PRC leadership will not be able to replicate what Hong Kong has provided them and continues to provide them and will provide them. But can PRC control what happens in Hong Kong and what Hong Kong people think. I am only asking these questions that I see because of the article above.

Please tell what you think that HK provided in past, providing now and will provide in the future.

When was the Joint Declaration of the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the People's Republic of China on the Question of Hong Kong signed.

Sino-British Joint Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also when was the hong kong constitution adopted:

Hong Kong Basic Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A mainland (PRC) city to replace Hong Kong is not possible. For PRC leadership to discuss this means that is being done without choice (you know unavoidable and inescapable) .

It has been forced onto them because of the above and because of (important) Hong Kong.

In 1996, HK's GDP was around 155B, equals 18% of China GDP (856b)
In 2012, HK's GDP was 263.26B, down to 3% of China GDP (8230b)

Meanwhile, Shanghai's GDP was 323.01b.

So Shanghai has replaced HK as the top one city. And HK has become less important than 1997.

The pertinent question by PRC leadership is what to do with Hong Kong people and their demand for democracy, universal suffrage and now planned protests of occupy central hong kong the principles of which is to demand for deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

For PRC leadership to think about Hong Kong this way means they are important and in fact gained importance over the years.

Can you please come out from your "demcractic" shell?

First you imply that you hate hong kong and now you imply that you don't. Next you say hong kong is not important and now you say hong kong is important but not special. Next you will say hong kong is special but PRC is a developing country (and would prefer to not talk about hong kong and talk about PRC only).

Do you have problem with understanding?
I have never said that HK is not important NOW! Again, HK is not as important as before! That is it!

You must be secretly thinking more and more about Hong Kong and this democracy question. Its different compared to Taiwan as the process in Hong Kong is led by the people and is not separated by sea. Also there are legal documents to support Hong Kong on its path.

Secretly you must be thinking Hong Kong is special it has better policies and rules compared to PRC. The people of hong kong even have western education and institutions as well as free speech, protest, and democratic traditions and rule of law.

Why else would hong kong be successful. Is it all down to PRC.

Secretly you want to participate. If not out of a billion people in PRC how many would secretly be thinking along these lines. And what do you think PRC leadership is thinking.

OK, I swear to your god, I DON'T CARE if Hongkong has democracy or not! Is that clear?

Now ask yourself out of 24 hours in a day what does the PRC leadership spend its most time on. Compare that to 1 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. And think about the next 1 year and 5 years.

Well, I guess: Now, they spend most of their time on how to increase people's income, how to stop pollusion, how to buy more resources in the world, how to build navy/air force;
5 years ago, the topic would be: how to increase export, how to increase employment, how to survice in financial crisis started from USA.

I am not asking you to judge me but I am only repeating what others have told me.
Not only you but people of Hong Kong and the world sure wish the PRC leadership know what they are doing.
Because everyone knows what happens when the PRC run out of options and cannot control their people in their region. One recent example is below:

Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then you are wrong and the people tell you that is wrong!
The Tiananmen Square was the failure of pro-democracy movement. The performance of those so called "democratic activists" were a disgrace to anyone who believes in democracy. They successfully help CCP consolidate its power.

 

[Compersion]

No, my friend, you need to use your brain instead of your heart!

No, my friend, you need to use your brain instead of your heart!

I am thinking with both my heart and mind. I get a sense you are unable to and also fearful of opening up your heart and mind. Don't fear and also show your true ability.

What I say below does not preclude what was said earlier and needs to be viewed in overall context:

Shanghai before was a financial powerhouse and had many commanding financial institutions. It was the hong kong of the past. But that was in the context of different political environment and before socialism (communist party) and before 1997 that one needs to view now.

The purposeful nature that PRC is setting up the trade zone needs to be questioned. My interpretation of the article is that PRC will make hong kong decrease in value and status to develop shanghai (first through shanghai free trade zone).

Will it happen (trade zone similar to hong kong) my personal belief is no because PRC does not have the guts and would be stupid to diminish Hong Kong value.

The planned protests in Hong Kong are considered subversive by PRC leadership.

Next judgment of PRC leadership:

Lets look at a document that was signed by PRC leadership and ratified by the Communist Party (I read about this last night):

Basic law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have put the whole sections for you to read and not imagine:

Article 45:

"The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election or through consultations held locally and be appointed by the Central People's Government."

"The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress. The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures."

Article 27:

"Hong Kong residents shall have freedom of speech, of the press and of publication; freedom of association, of assembly, of procession and of demonstration; and the right and freedom to form and join trade unions, and to strike."

Article 35

Hong Kong residents shall have the right to confidential legal advice, access to the courts, choice of lawyers for timely protection of their lawful rights and interests or for representation in the courts, and to judicial remedies.
Hong Kong residents shall have the right to institute legal proceedings in the courts against the acts of the executive authorities and their personnel.

The constitution of hong kong was approved by PRC leadership to the Chinese people in the "same country". I fact the constituion of hong kong was developed by hong kong people and PRC leadership. If you are in PRC there is no difference between you and a Hong Kong person technically as it is one country and two systems. Unless you live in a "Special Administrative Zone". You must secretly be thinking why hong kong is different. You might even want to participate as a Chinese. If a PRC citizen goes to Hong Kong do they automatically become "special" by crossing the border.

This was a judgement made by PRC leadership that PRC people will not be influenced by all of the above and Hong Kong people can be controlled and contained. And now we have discussion on Shanghai Trade Zone with the article above in mind. I will refer to the above more later. Now lets look at the perplexity that is facing the PRC leadership.

You use the stock market and question why Hong Kong is important (condom) to be an example:

Hong Kong has faced several corporate governance scandals surrounding mainland companies listing in the city.

Hong Kong Exchange Sticks to Rulebook on Alibaba IPO - Bloomberg

If you look closely the Hong Kong people are reacting. Like I asked you when will they start saying "Hong Kong has good policies for PRC. Hong Kong has done a lot for PRC and it better PRC treats Hong Kong well".

Next you say Mr Li is not extraordinary and not a good businessman and is not important to PRC investment and can be ignored as he only focuses on real estate and financial investment:

Chinese Cities Hooked on Land Revenue Fuel Housing Costs
Chinese Cities Hooked on Land Revenue Fuel Housing Costs - Bloomberg

Shanghai Free-Trade Zone Splits Analysts on Benefits to Economy
Shanghai Free-Trade Zone Splits Analysts on Benefits to Economy - Bloomberg

Cheung Kong: Products: Real estate, Investment, life sciences, IT, Hotels, telecommunications; & internet. Total Value [x].
Cheung Kong Holdings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I repeat Mr Li views are weighty and don't underestimate the value of Mr Li to PRC leadership and PRC investment. In fact dont underestimate Mr Li to Hong Kong leadership and Hong Kong investment. In fact dont underestimate Mr Li to UK leadership and UK investment. I personally think Mr Li views are in this order Hong Kong > PRC. Not PRC > Hong Kong. He must have interacted with the PRC leadership for him to say what he did.

You continue to say Hong Kong is not important and there are other cities more important compared to Hong Kong. You fail to tell everyone why Mr Wing Kee said what he did:

"Wang said the country had more than a son, referring to the several hubs, but it would reserve the best policies for Hong Kong," said Chan Wing-kee.

Unless he was lying. Do you understand what the Hong Kong people would think if that was a lie. The PRC is being cunning, scheming and using threats to frighten Hong Kong on something that the PRC leadership themselves have consented to under Article 45 and 27 of the hong kong constitution.

Like I said the above article is a gemstone. It really is one for the thought. The statements are significant and why have they been said at this moment.

The history of Singapore and why they got independence can be read. Its application to Hong Kong is there if you have the mind and heart to see it. With the development of shanghai trade zone it might be more prudent for you to ask the PRC leadership what they are doing and if their judgment is sound. Especially at this time that is nearby certain important landmark dates for Hong Kong.

Actually from history Shanghai used to be a financial powerhouse and had many commanding financial institutions and smart people. It was one of the reasons why Communist Party came into power. They got the larger public to agree with them that such people and things in Shanghai were not right. That's why after Communist Party came into power Shanghai crumbled and somesay businessman and tycoons fled to Hong Kong and hence created karma by becoming rich. Now communist party wants to recreate that Shanghai (ironic) with those traitors that live and prosper in Hong Kong.

Yes Shanghai was the hong kong of the past. But that was in the context of different political environment and before socialism (communist party) and before 1997 that one needs to view now.

Yes, they can! When the whole city is living upan the supplies from mainland, from food, electricity to water. And even major income is from the contract with PRC. There is no need to confront people. There is no big move can be made without PRC permission. That is why Mr Li made that comment as he know HK is in no position to say no to PRC.

Do you realize what will happen if PRC leadership use their wise judgment to reduce even ban supplies from mainland, from food, electricity to water (that is provided in better methods and condition compared to PRC people). Also does PRC make income from Hong Kong and how much. You mention yuan is not fully convertible. How much of the yuan is traded through Hong Kong and converted to USD through economic vehicles. How many of the PRC leadership have homes in Hong Kong. Are you allowed to discuss these things.

First, you claim that HK stock market is the condemn usd by PRC to screw the world;
Now, you claim that quality of PRC companies can be questioned in HK market!
How can you contradict youself so much?

A condom is used to screw someone. If you list companies that are not having quality and have been injected onto a stock exchange through lax standards and lax requirements (exceptions) and based on law and rules of PRC I don't see where I am contradicting myself. The aim is to have these companies to suddenly have a look of eminence. You know PRC leadership has a habit of trying to look good but behind the looks if one looks closely is a different story.

I have heard someone tell me the following story:

The PRC leadership wants the public to see they are good. They don't want them to question and look closely. That is a judgment they have made to maintain power.

Its like a large house owner (PRC) wants to impress his neighbor and invites him to his house and shows him (only) his living room that is having the latest furniture, gadgets, and treats him to a good meal. The judgment is the value of pretentiousness and boastfulness will outshine the threat of someone taking away the right for him to show that living room to others.

A naïve and unformed neighbor will be taken in and say this house owner is wonderful because he has a good living room (ha). He must be rich and really strong. But when the door shuts that's all the neighbor knows about the house and its owner. In fact the living room and food delivered during his visit is used to influence the neighbor during his 1 hour visit.

The other neighbors are not all naïve and unformed what do you think that are saying. Some have construction going on in their own homes and some have even better houses with strong walls that don't let whispers in (Hong Kong and Taiwan). They can talk to the naïve and unformed.
If the house owner senses someone is becoming wiser he invites that person to his living room and gives an even better meal and shows of the kitchen (that is under construction) but who knew.

But the paper did mention that some of MNC are moving their regional head office from HK or singapore to Shanghai.

Have they closed down their Hong Kong office.

Well, if MNC wants to make profit from mainland, they have to live with mainland law. HK used to be a window for MNC to access the mainland market. Now the door is open, why do you still use the window?

First we make it clear there is no open door to PRC. Probably for business men it has a gap but nothing more. I ask you why is the shanghai trade zone being discussed with different law principles in mind. And why are all MNCs in PRC still in Hong Kong.

Ok, tell me where did Mr HU give any detail about this democracy?
What law?
Who make the law?
Who make the decision?
Who supervise?

It only validates that Mr Hu and Mr Wen say is having double meanings on purpose to try and fool the populace. You know creating hope for suckers.

I am sure the PRC leadership will say "but we never said that". After that PRC leadership will want to have a discussion on what they thought and said. And it will be "but we never said that" always. What suckers. Wait it might be perhaps good judgment to maintain power. Like cultural revolution you know killed many but it was worth it. In this case made population suckers but it was worth it.

Comparing to Hongkong people, the mainland public is a stone with 300 times size, do you think which one PRC leaders should care more?

The PRC leadership judgment is to care more for Hong Kong. That's why the Hong Kong people are in "Special Administrative Region". In fact Taiwan people are cared more by PRC leaders compared to the mainland public. Look at the Hong Kong and Taiwan business people that get preferential treatment. Also look at the Hong Kong and Taiwan people in their own areas that have better rules and standards (you know like Article 45 and 27 above). In fact look at how PRC treats Hong Kong and Taiwan with others.

Maybe, but that won't happen until most of Chinese have a same living standard as HK! Otherwise, CPC should've collapsed in 1989!

Are you saying that PRC leadership will use force and military on Hong Kong if they continue with their protests and their right under article 45 and 27.

I think you are failing to understand the article. If PRC makes Hong Kong less important the confrontation becomes more intense. Like I said PRC leadership judgment would be stupid to diminish hong kong value at this time. Unless it is inevitable and they cannot control it.

Very simple, financial crisis!

I am happy that India will not be impacted too much.

That is partially true!

We are living in interesting times. PRC and Hong Kong confrontation with western powers involved.

Do you need to tell anyone if nobody care about it?

Its all in the public domain and the PRC leadership is reacting because of it.

Please tell what you think that HK provided in past, providing now and will provide in the future.

You told everyone about the past. The present is pretty much the same. The future is unknown. The near term is what we are discussing.

So Shanghai has replaced HK as the top one city. And HK has become less important than 1997.

You say Hong Kong is number one. Now you say Shanghai is number one. Make up your mind. The GDP of Shanghai is greater compared to Hong Kong are you sure about that.

Can you please come out from your "demcractic" shell?

If I was in the democratic shell I would not be able to say that PRC would be stupid to diminish hong kong value. It means I know what I would do to reduce the impact of the hong kong protests and that is to talk to the hong kong people (more on that later).

But I worry PRC leadership judgment is more along your lines and we can only look at their judgement before and what they have done before (precedents). The PRC leadership if they think along your lines is that Hong Kong is not important and is behaving in a subversive manner and its better to focus on shanghai.

"It has different aspects, including financial services. When the yuan becomes fully convertible, it will benefit the development of Shanghai."

That's what the hong kong people will think now with the shanghai trade zone coming up and if PRC tries to talk to them (you know the living room analogy).

I have never said that HK is not important NOW! Again, HK is not as important as before! That is it!

Tell me why this was said:

"Wang said the country had more than a son, referring to the several hubs, but it would reserve the best policies for Hong Kong," said Chan Wing-kee."

What and why is this person saying what he said.

OK, I swear to your god, I DON'T CARE if Hongkong has democracy or not! Is that clear?

Make sure you tell the PRC leadership this. The same PRC leadership (judgment) that gave Article 45 and 27 to Hong Kong people.

Then you are wrong and the people tell you that is wrong! The Tiananmen Square was the failure of pro-democracy movement. The performance of those so called "democratic activists" were a disgrace to anyone who believes in democracy. They successfully help CCP consolidate its power.

The Tiananmen Square happened because of poor judgment by PRC leadership. The PRC leadership that made decisions at the time resulted in what happened. It led to a vacuum of authority that resulted in the PRC leadership behaving like they did in the end (that they have experience in doing killing their own citizens).

The reason the Tianamen Square is related to the article is because next year Hong Kong is planning the occupy central protests the principles of which is to demand for deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

To prevent these protests it would be good to talk. But the ultimate aim is enshrined in Article 45 and 27. That means the PRC judgment is they have to abide by what they gave to Hong Kong people.

For you to suggest the PRC will use military on Hong Kong people is dangerous.

I would think being a Indian it would be good for PRC leadership to talk to Hong Kong people. My reading and from what is available is that the ball has already started rolling in the direction of democracy and universal suffrage in Hong Kong. This process is Hong Kong people led development.

There are many images of Tianmen Square including the tanks and killing. But one that inspires people and is most poignant is when the Tianamen Square protestors went all the way to the PRC leadership at the great hall of people with a letter and only wanted to talk to PRC leadership. But they were refused and later killed.

You know what that was "¦ heartless.

We are living in interesting times we really are.

 

[amoy]

Frankly many more Chinese cities are in the queue to run a FTZ after this Shanghai pilot, like Chongqing , Xiamen and so on.

Chongqing plans to fully utilize free trade zones |Economy |chinadaily.com.cn Indeed no big deal at all!

Being a condom it has to be, perhaps lubricative, durable etc. etc. just like Calcutta has to prove itself of such qualities, or of course Bombay, Hyderabad or Goa, Bangalore can easily take the role over if India just needs a sound condom to screw the world. Meantime if India is well developed it may take a few condoms at the same time. All in all it's not condoms that matter but the user (Indian economy) to which condoms are attached to who really decides which condom to pick up or how many he can afford. Of course we all know Indian economy has been ailing all the time so one condom may be more than enough.

There's ample room for FTZs in full swing thanks to RMB internationalization >>
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkedition/2013-04/17/content_16413396.htm
Photo: HSBC: RMB is about to become the world's reserve currency - Finance News

The impact of even a small change in Asian reserve policy could be profound. Central banks in emerging Asia (excluding China itself) hold more than $2 trillion in foreign reserves, almost 20 percent of the global total, according to HSBC and Bloomberg data, and given their increasing integration with China, it makes economic sense to hedge some of their exposure by holding renminbi.

And even if, as many analysts believe, the days of one-way renminbi appreciation are gone, the currency's resilience in the face of the exogenous shocks of the past five years would make it an attractive proposition.

As the arguments in favor of the renminbi build, the outlook for the US dollar is becoming more uncertain. US dollar yields are at historically low levels; there are growing worries about the long-term impact of Washington's accommodative monetary policy; and persistently weak US demand for Asian imports is undermining the argument that export industries will prolong the US dollar's life as the world's sole reserve currency.

China has already signed swap agreements worth almost 1.3 trillion yuan with 21 central banks - five of them in East Asia - and if recent media reports are to be believed, the Bank of England is interested in becoming No 22. Despite the continuing legacy capital restrictions, the renminbi pool is still getting wider and deeper with every month that passes.

 

[Compersion]

Its good you are in agreement that Hong Kong is condom to PRC. I know India is world renowned for its sexual powers and kama sutra.

Also the articles you place. If that is what Shanghai Trade Zone will be like that means Hong Kong will continue to be the condom and most important area to PRC. But it still makes you question why did Mr Li say what he said. And why are people talking about Shanghai Trade Zone being like Hong Kong.

In your article there is a Area with a big grey circle. Whats written inside it... Hong Kong. Think about that.

 

[amoy]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-10/01/content_17006846.htm

He quoted that the World Bank ranked Hong Kong the second- easiest place to do business in the world last October, while the Heritage Foundation rated Hong Kong the world's freest economy for the 19th year in a row early this year.

In the Global Competitiveness Report released by the World Economic Forum last month, Hong Kong moved up two places to the seventh in the world and second in Asia. He said these are affirmations of Hong Kong's international status and competitiveness.

Hong Kong's competitiveness stems from the efforts of Hong Kong people, and the country's support and international influence, he said, adding the current-term government not only attaches great importance to co-operation with Mainland provinces and municipalities, but plans to expand the scope and raise the level of co-operation in future.

According to him, the ties between Hong Kong and the Mainland are getting closer. As at the end of June, 154 branches of Hong Kong banks were set up in Guangdong, while six Hong Kong banks had opened 58 cross-location sub-branches there.

Supplement X to the Closer Economic Partnership Arrangement signed in August brings the number of liberalization measures for trade in services to 403, he said, with operations reaching an all- time high of 7,250.

The growing social ties between Hong Kong and the Mainland are also reflected in the number of cross-boundary marriages, which accounted for about 35 percent of all marriages registered in Hong Kong in 2012.

A survey conducted in 2011 by the city's Census & Statistics Department found there were 115,500 Hong Kong people aged 60 or above residing on the Mainland.

On education, some institutions have exempted Hong Kong students from taking the Joint Entrance Examination for Universities on the Mainland, and 70 others joined the scheme this year, admitting 1,200 students from Hong Kong.

 

[no smoking]

I am thinking with both my heart and mind. I get a sense you are unable to and also fearful of opening up your heart and mind. Don't fear and also show your true ability.

Well, you failed to provide any solid fact to back your claim, the only thing you got is "I believe" or "My opinion", "My interpretation"!

Shanghai before was a financial powerhouse and had many commanding financial institutions. It was the hong kong of the past. But that was in the context of different political environment and before socialism (communist party) and before 1997 that one needs to view now.

But now Shanghai is regaining its position in China's financial map! Hongkong's neighbour provinces are centers for light industry only while those around Shanghai are the real industry center for whole country from Heavy industry to high-end manufacturing!

The purposeful nature that PRC is setting up the trade zone needs to be questioned. My interpretation of the article is that PRC will make hong kong decrease in value and status to develop shanghai (first through shanghai free trade zone).

You still don't get it: it is not anyone trying to get HK's value down. It is the natural result of Chinese economic development!
Before 1978, HK was the only port of China's international trade;
Before 1990s, HK was the only destination market for Chinese foreign exchange reserve;
But now, all these are gone!

On the other hand, China is entering into heavy industrilization era now, Shanghai has plenty of heavy industry companies while HK has very few.

Will it happen (trade zone similar to hong kong) my personal belief is no because PRC does not have the guts and would be stupid to diminish Hong Kong value.

Well, the fact proves you are wrong:

BBC News - Shanghai's free trade zone launched amid Hong Kong fears

If you look closely the Hong Kong people are reacting. Like I asked you when will they start saying "Hong Kong has good policies for PRC. Hong Kong has done a lot for PRC and it better PRC treats Hong Kong well".

Shanghai free trade zone is the one of the answers for HK:"Watch me!"

Next you say Mr Li is not extraordinary and not a good businessman and is not important to PRC investment and can be ignored as he only focuses on real estate and financial investment:

I said Mr Li's business doesn't fit China's next development strategy, do you understand what is the difference?

I repeat Mr Li views are weighty and don't underestimate the value of Mr Li to PRC leadership and PRC investment. In fact dont underestimate Mr Li to Hong Kong leadership and Hong Kong investment. In fact dont underestimate Mr Li to UK leadership and UK investment. I personally think Mr Li views are in this order Hong Kong > PRC. Not PRC > Hong Kong. He must have interacted with the PRC leadership for him to say what he did.

Do you have problem of undstanding? If HK >PRC, he doesn't need to say anything, CPC will come to beg him as they did in last 80s.
Only beggers need to cry! Only weakers need to remind other about his or her value!

You continue to say Hong Kong is not important and there are other cities more important compared to Hong Kong. You fail to tell everyone why Mr Wing Kee said what he did:

Unless he was lying. Do you understand what the Hong Kong people would think if that was a lie. The PRC is being cunning, scheming and using threats to frighten Hong Kong on something that the PRC leadership themselves have consented to under Article 45 and 27 of the hong kong constitution.

If HK is that important, the only thing PRC will do is keeping them happy. The only way you treat your star employee is to satisfy his every requirement no matter how unreasonable it is! But now, is PRC behaving in that way?

Do you realize what will happen if PRC leadership use their wise judgment to reduce even ban supplies from mainland, from food, electricity to water (that is provided in better methods and condition compared to PRC people).

So, can HK people live without these supplies?

Also does PRC make income from Hong Kong and how much. You mention yuan is not fully convertible. How much of the yuan is traded through Hong Kong and converted to USD through economic vehicles.

PRC is not going to close HK stock market!

How many of the PRC leadership have homes in Hong Kong.

Does it matter? They also have homes in USA, but it doesn't stop them from pissing americans!

Are you allowed to discuss these things.

Are you stupid? what are we discussing here?

A condom is used to screw someone. If you list companies that are not having quality and have been injected onto a stock exchange through lax standards and lax requirements (exceptions) and based on law and rules of PRC I don't see where I am contradicting myself. The aim is to have these companies to suddenly have a look of eminence. You know PRC leadership has a habit of trying to look good but behind the looks if one looks closely is a different story.

Do you have any evidence that most of them are under the standard?

I have heard someone tell me the following story:

The PRC leadership wants the public to see they are good. They don't want them to question and look closely. That is a judgment they have made to maintain power.

Its like a large house owner (PRC) wants to impress his neighbor and invites him to his house and shows him (only) his living room that is having the latest furniture, gadgets, and treats him to a good meal. The judgment is the value of pretentiousness and boastfulness will outshine the threat of someone taking away the right for him to show that living room to others.

A naïve and unformed neighbor will be taken in and say this house owner is wonderful because he has a good living room (ha). He must be rich and really strong. But when the door shuts that's all the neighbor knows about the house and its owner. In fact the living room and food delivered during his visit is used to influence the neighbor during his 1 hour visit.

The other neighbors are not all naïve and unformed what do you think that are saying. Some have construction going on in their own homes and some have even better houses with strong walls that don't let whispers in (Hong Kong and Taiwan). They can talk to the naïve and unformed.
If the house owner senses someone is becoming wiser he invites that person to his living room and gives an even better meal and shows of the kitchen (that is under construction) but who knew.

This story only prove one thing: the one make that story has IQ less than 70! PRC didn't invite anyone come to visit. These "visiters" coming for business! They only come for money, they don't give a shit about how good or bad the living room is!

Have they closed down their Hong Kong office.

First we make it clear there is no open door to PRC. Probably for business men it has a gap but nothing more. I ask you why is the shanghai trade zone being discussed with different law principles in mind. And why are all MNCs in PRC still in Hong Kong.

Well, you have to explain why there more and more MNC moving their reginal headquarters from HK to shanghai first!

It only validates that Mr Hu and Mr Wen say is having double meanings on purpose to try and fool the populace. You know creating hope for suckers.

I am sure the PRC leadership will say "but we never said that". After that PRC leadership will want to have a discussion on what they thought and said. And it will be "but we never said that" always. What suckers. Wait it might be perhaps good judgment to maintain power. Like cultural revolution you know killed many but it was worth it. In this case made population suckers but it was worth it.

How about you put out the agreement signed by them to prove that they did say it! Don't act like a loser!

The PRC leadership judgment is to care more for Hong Kong. That's why the Hong Kong people are in "Special Administrative Region". In fact Taiwan people are cared more by PRC leaders compared to the mainland public. Look at the Hong Kong and Taiwan business people that get preferential treatment. Also look at the Hong Kong and Taiwan people in their own areas that have better rules and standards (you know like Article 45 and 27 above). In fact look at how PRC treats Hong Kong and Taiwan with others.

And now they are taking step to bridge the gap of treatment, Shanghai free trade zone is the beginning!

Are you saying that PRC leadership will use force and military on Hong Kong if they continue with their protests and their right under article 45 and 27.

No, what i am saying is that HK cannot live without the support from PRC while PRC will live without HK!

I think you are failing to understand the article. If PRC makes Hong Kong less important the confrontation becomes more intense. Like I said PRC leadership judgment would be stupid to diminish hong kong value at this time. Unless it is inevitable and they cannot control it.

Well HK's value is going down! It is inevitable and NO ONE is willing to control it except HK people! Only stupid cannot see that!

I am happy that India will not be impacted too much.

Well, India is already in a financial shithole.

You say Hong Kong is number one. Now you say Shanghai is number one. Make up your mind.

I said that HongKong WAS number one! Can you please read others with attention!

The GDP of Shanghai is greater compared to Hong Kong are you sure about that.

Yes, I am sure!

If I was in the democratic shell I would not be able to say that PRC would be stupid to diminish hong kong value. It means I know what I would do to reduce the impact of the hong kong protests and that is to talk to the hong kong people (more on that later).

That's what the hong kong people will think now with the shanghai trade zone coming up and if PRC tries to talk to them (you know the living room analogy).

Tell me why this was said:

What and why is this person saying what he said.

Make sure you tell the PRC leadership this. The same PRC leadership (judgment) that gave Article 45 and 27 to Hong Kong people.

Well, nobody stop HK people from using their right. PRC just move its business somewhere else! If HK people don't like it, they can continue their protest or occupying, it is their right and their internal affairs!

There are many images of Tianmen Square including the tanks and killing. But one that inspires people and is most poignant is when the Tianamen Square protestors went all the way to the PRC leadership at the great hall of people with a letter and only wanted to talk to PRC leadership. But they were refused and later killed.

It is quite frustration to talk to someone who has no knowledge about a history.
First, CPC did talk to students, we saw the video---students having meeting with prime minister at the time;
Second, both CPC and students leaders have their share of blood of Beijing residents/soldiers;
Last, one of results of this event is that these "democratic" activists lost their credits among public, they lose far more points than CPC.

 

[nimo_cn]

@Compersion

Chinese leadership had negotiated with the student activists, but the negotiation failed because neither side was willing to compromise. The meeting was well documented in a documentary produced and circulated by student activists living abroad.

During the meeting, the then premier Li Peng asked furiously "what exact do you want from us, in exchange for your retreat", the activists' answer was quite simple "we want to overthrow CCP".

Anyone with political common sense would understand why the negotiation and the whole movement failed after knowing about student activists plan.

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[Compersion]

China trade zone is 'warning' to Hong Kong: analysts

HONG KONG (AFP) – Plans for China's first free trade zone -- seen as a threat to Hong Kong's status as a finance hub -- are also a tool to dampen political protest in the city, analysts say.

The FTZ in Shanghai will allow unfettered exchange of China's yuan currency as part of a bold push to reform the world's second largest economy, according to proposals revealed exclusively by AFP earlier this month.

Experts have already urged Hong Kong to improve its economic environment, including tackling high rents and labour costs, if it wants to compete with the new trade and finance hub.

But senior Beijing officials last week warned the ex-British colony that it also needs to curb increasing political dissent if it wants to thrive and analysts say the promotion of Shanghai is an indirect message to Hong Kong to cooperate politically, or be marginalised economically.

"Beijing is using a softline economic approach to groom Shanghai to compete with, or possibly replace Hong Kong. The implicit message is clear that if Hong Kong continues to have political squabbles, its economic status will suffer greatly," Sonny Lo, a social scientist at Hong Kong Institute of Education, told AFP.

Yu Zhengsheng, the leader of Beijing's top advisory body, the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, and Wang Guangya, director of the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office, both called for "unity" in the city last week.

"(Wang) called on us to think clearly whether Hong Kong should be a city for political struggle or economic development," said Walter Kwok, part of a Hong Kong delegation addressed by Wang in Beijing Tuesday, according to Hong Kong's South China Morning Post.
Yu spoke to the same delegation, asking Hong Kong to "stay united and comply with the Basic Law under all circumstances," if it wanted to enhance its competitiveness, the Post reported. He described Hong Kong society has having unwelcome "noise", local media said.
Ma Ngok, a political scientist at Hong Kong's Chinese University, said the remarks by Beijing officials were a bid to "create a stabilising force" amid current political unrest.

Under British rule, Hong Kong was transformed into one of the freest world economies and an international finance centre, outpacing economic development in Chinese cities.

Doubts were cast over its ability to retain its status after the handover from Britain to China in 1997, while Shanghai flourished during a period of stellar economic growth overseen by president Jiang Zemin.

After Jiang retired from the last of his national posts in 2005, several members of his powerful "Shanghai Gang" political clique were dismissed in corruption trials, widely seen as a move by new president Hu Jintao to rein in the city's powerbase.
But with Xi Jinping taking over from Hu in March this year, Shanghai appears to be back on the map, as mainland critics increasingly gun for Hong Kong over anti-Beijing democracy protests.

In the past 10 years, the southern Chinese territory has witnessed frequent demonstrations and increasing discontent, with opposition groups denouncing the city's government as a puppet of Beijing.

Pressure from democrats is increasing as Hong Kong approaches the deadline for the introduction of universal suffrage, which Beijing has pledged for 2017.

Some activists have threatened to seize the main streets of key business district Central in 2014 to force officials to guarantee a fair electoral system.
Asia's richest man Li Ka-shing, based in Hong Kong and considered pro-Beijing, also said Tuesday that the city's pro-democracy movement Occupy Central could harm its economy.

Although Hong Kong is a semi-autonomous region of China, Beijing sees Hong Kong as a subordinate, political analyst Johnny Lau told AFP.
"The thinking is that if you (Hong Kong) can coordinate with me, I will let you in. But I (China) can also make several places like Hong Kong in the mainland," he said of China's FTZ strategy.

"Beijing has lost its patience... this is a wake-up call."

China trade zone is 'warning' to Hong Kong: analysts | Fox News

 

[nimo_cn]

China trade zone is 'warning' to Hong Kong: analysts



China trade zone is 'warning' to Hong Kong: analysts | Fox News

the setup of Shanghai FTZ might be no good news to Hongkong, depending on how you see it. but China should go for it as long as it does good to Chinese economy.

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[Compersion]

It is quite frustration to talk to someone who has no knowledge about a history.
First, CPC did talk to students, we saw the video---students having meeting with prime minister at the time;
Second, both CPC and students leaders have their share of blood of Beijing residents/soldiers;
Last, one of results of this event is that these "democratic" activists lost their credits among public, they lose far more points than CPC.

Well, you failed to provide any solid fact to back your claim, the only thing you got is "I believe" or "My opinion", "My interpretation"!

If one talks about the impending future they have to use the analysis and make a reasoned point. I believe you will understand eventually.
I also believe that if we were to have a beer you would realise that your opinion and my opinion even though at crossroads can be maintained at this moment as there is imperfect information mostly due to PRC policies and leadership.

Also your viewpoint is definitely to project pro-PRC line of thought (one that goes even against Hong Kong). That's fair and you will understand my viewpoint is definitely to support Indian and am pro-India.

Hong Kong happens to have many key landmark dates coming up and PRC is reacting because of them. There is definitely a PRC and Hong Kong confrontation. And western powers are involved.

But now Shanghai is regaining its position in China's financial map! Hongkong's neighbour provinces are centers for light industry only while those around Shanghai are the real industry center for whole country from Heavy industry to high-end manufacturing!

The purposeful nature of PRC to reduce the importance of Hong Kong and increase the importance of Shanghai needs to be questioned. If the PRC leadership is intent and determined on reducing Hong Kong importance it would be stupid.

I worry PRC leadership will start to implement more policies to show to Hong Kong that it is not important and is behaving in a subversive manner and its better to focus on shanghai.

If PRC makes Hong Kong less important the confrontation becomes more intense. Like I said PRC leadership judgment would be stupid to diminish hong kong value at this time. Unless it is inevitable and they cannot control it.

Hong Kong importance will always be there and has grown since 1997. Its better to talk to Hong Kong people instead of creating such zones to threaten them.

You still don't get it: it is not anyone trying to get HK's value down. It is the natural result of Chinese economic development!
Before 1978, HK was the only port of China's international trade;
Before 1990s, HK was the only destination market for Chinese foreign exchange reserve;
But now, all these are gone!

Hong Kong value has gone up since 1997. PRC value has also gone up since 1997. Is Hong Kong more important to PRC compare to 1997 definitely yes. Will PRC make Shanghai more important to Hong Kong definitely no. Please tell me if otherwise.

Why Shanghai free trade zone is no match for Hong Kong
Why Shanghai free trade zone is no match for Hong Kong

On the other hand, China is entering into heavy ndustrialization era now, Shanghai has plenty of heavy industry companies while HK has very few.

More reason that Hong Kong will remain important more compared to Shanghai. Also what do you mean that PRC "is entering into heavy industrialisation era now:.

Well, the fact proves you are wrong:
BBC News - Shanghai's free trade zone launched amid Hong Kong fears

Where does it prove that I am wrong. Next year Hong Kong is planning the occupy central protests the principles of which is to demand for deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

To prevent these protests it would be good to talk. But the ultimate aim is enshrined in Article 45 and 27. That means the PRC judgment is they have to abide by what they gave to Hong Kong people.

Thats why the first article on this thread is one for thought. Why did they say what they said now.

The BBC video you have shared please also look at the clip during:

(a) 1.06 - 1.23

(b) 2.30 – 2.50

Shanghai free trade zone is the one of the answers for HK:"Watch me!"

Please see the list of Trade Zones PRC has launched recently:
Economic and Technological Development Zones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How many are there in Shanghai right now.

The most significant one is the Shenzen Economic Zone with Hong Kong at its epicentre. In fact all the economic zones have some influence from Hong Kong.

The question is will the Shanghai Free Trade Zone be more like Hong Kong. Will it be more like Shenzhen Economic Zone.

What about Qianhai Economic Zone. Do you mind to tell me what is the difference between that and Shanghai Trade Zone:

Qianhai Economic Zone
Qianhai | South China Morning Post

If HK is that important, the only thing PRC will do is keeping them happy. The only way you treat your star employee is to satisfy his every requirement no matter how unreasonable it is! But now, is PRC behaving in that way?

Yes.

Where was Li Keqiang at the opening ceremony of Shanghai free-trade zone?
Where was Li Keqiang at the opening ceremony of Shanghai free-trade zone? | South China Morning Post

"Wang said the country had more than a son, referring to the several hubs, but it would reserve the best policies for Hong Kong," said Chan Wing-kee."

China trade zone is 'warning' to Hong Kong: analysts
China trade zone is 'warning' to Hong Kong: analysts | Fox News

This article articulates a lot of what we have been discussing.

So, can HK people live without these supplies?

For you to suggest the PRC will stop supplies is foolish. The thump PRC will get if they did that will be much worse compared to what Hong Kong would face. Hong Kong people can get supplies from elsewhere. Taiwan is nearby. I am not sure about electricity and water in Hong Kong. Do they have a power station there. Do they have reservoirs. Do they have salt desalination plants. Has hong kong planned for such contingency.

The more important question to ask is what will happen to hong kong if a sudden surge of PRC people rush and converge towards hong kong because they want to flea PRC areas.

Does it matter? They also have homes in USA, but it doesn't stop them from pissing americans!

Another foolish thing PRC does. Pissing of the Americans. The primary reason why PRC is where it is now is because of the Americans.

It reminds me of a story:

A tame elephant in the East was once taken to a forest by a party of men to catch wild elephants. A fox said to him, "What a shame that a beast of your size and strength should be led like a cat by men! If I were you, I should at once go back to my kindred."
The elephant thought the words of the fox reasonable, and stole into the forest where the wild elephants lived. They raised their trunks against him, saying, "There comes a traitor to betray us to man."
The elephant replied that he came back to live with them; but they drove him back with curses.
His keeper, seeing that he returned because his kindred had refused to admit him, bound him to a huge tree with chains, and with these words painted on his forehead: "A traitor to his kindred and to his keeper." As often as the wayfarers read these words, the elephant wailed aloud, saying, "The traitor who tries to mend, risks losing both foe and friend."

The Americans will think of PRC that way when they go to ask for investment into the Shanghai Trade Zone.

Well, you have to explain why there more and more MNC moving their reginal headquarters from HK to shanghai first!

Why are 100% of MNC companies in PRC having a office in Hong Kong. Why are 100% of PRC medium to larger enterprises having a office in Hong Kong. Can the same be said of Shanghai.

How about you put out the agreement signed by them to prove that they did say it! Don't act like a loser!

Its okay. Here you go I do not think you are sucker yet. Dont cry.

But for discussion what did Mr Hu and Mr Wen say about democracy in PRC you might like to enlighten everyone.

And now they are taking step to bridge the gap of treatment, Shanghai free trade zone is the beginning!

Are you sure you are okay that the PRC leadership cares more for Hong Kong. That's why the Hong Kong people are in "Special Administrative Region". You are also okay that Taiwan people are cared more by PRC leaders compared to the mainland public. You are okay that Hong Kong and Taiwan people in their own areas have better rules and standards (like Article 45 and 27 above).

You are okay that PRC leadership is trying to bridge the gap of treatment through a 20 km zone that the majority of people think is a warning to Hong Kong.

No, what i am saying is that HK cannot live without the support from PRC while PRC will live without HK!

Perhaps Hong Kong lives and prospers due to other support (not PRC). Can PRC live without this "other support".

Does PRC have this "other support" without Hong Kong. Can PRC live without Hong Kong.

Well, India is already in a financial shithole.

Compared to whom. Please don't use PRC statistics to prove your point. Whats the latest on PRC occupancy levels in residential and commercial property levels. What is the export levels to PRC from Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong.

The economists talk about India openly and the government reacts openly.

Well, nobody stop HK people from using their right. PRC just move its business somewhere else! If HK people don't like it, they can continue their protest or occupying, it is their right and their internal affairs!

That's the beauty what you say hits the nail on the head.

It is quite frustration to talk to someone who has no knowledge about a history.
First, CPC did talk to students, we saw the video---students having meeting with prime minister at the time;
Second, both CPC and students leaders have their share of blood of Beijing residents/soldiers;
Last, one of results of this event is that these "democratic" activists lost their credits among public, they lose far more points than CPC.

Before you divert the topic into a Tianamen Square protest solitary discussion. What video you are talking about. Please share it if you can.
Is that the video where Mr Wen Jiabao and Mr Zhao Ziyang met the students:

Shortly before 5 am on the morning of 19 May, Zhao appeared in Tiananmen Square and wandered among the crowd of protesters. Using a bullhorn, he delivered a now-famous speech to the students gathered at the square. It was first broadcast through China Central Television nationwide. Here is a translated version:

"Students, we came too late. We are sorry. You talk about us, criticize us, it is all necessary. The reason that I came here is not to ask for your forgiveness. What I want to say is that you are all getting weak, it has been seven days since you went on a hunger strike, you can't continue like this. As time goes on, your body will be damaged beyond repair, it could be very life-threatening. Now the most important thing is to end this strike. I know, your hunger strike is to hope that the Party and the government will give you a satisfying answer. I feel that our communication is open. Some of these problems can only be solved through certain procedures. For example, you have mentioned about the nature of the incident, the question of responsibility; I feel that those problems can be resolved eventually, we can reach a mutual agreement in the end. However, you should also know that the situation is very complicated, it is going to be a long process. You can't continue the hunger strike longer than seven days, and still insist on receiving a satisfying answer before ending the hunger strike.

You are still young, there are still many days yet to come, you must live healthy, and see the day when China accomplishes the four modernizations.
You are not like us, we are already old, so we do not matter. It is not easy for this nation and your parents to support your college studies. Now you are all about 20, and about to sacrifice your lives so easily, students, couldn't you think rationally? Now the situation is very serious, you all know, the Party and the nation is very antsy, our society is very worried. Besides, Beijing is the capital, the situation is getting worse and worse everywhere, this cannot continue. Students, you all have good will, and are for the good of our nation, but if this situation continues, loses control, it will have serious consequences elsewhere.

In conclusion, I have only one wish. If you stop hunger strike, the government won't close the door for dialogue, never! The questions that you have raised, we can continue to discuss. Although it is a little slow, but we are reaching some agreement on some problems. Today I just want to see the students, and express our feelings. I hope students could think about this issues calmly. This thing can not be sorted out clearly under illogical situations. You all have that strength, you are young after all. We were also young before, we protested, laid our bodies on the rail tracks, we never thought about what will happen in the future at that time. Finally, I beg the students once again, think about the future calmly. There are many things that can be solved. I hope that you will all end the hunger strike soon, thank you.[23]
"
After a bow, people began to applaud, some students bursted into tears. That was his last public appearance. "我们已经老了，无所谓了。"
In Traditional Chinese: 我們已經老了，無所謂了。</ref> – "We are already old, it doesn't matter to us anymore." became a famous quote after that.

Zhao Ziyang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the speech all the killing happened.

What I am referring to is different. It is when Tianamen Square protestors went all the way to the PRC leadership at the great hall of people with a letter and only wanted to talk to PRC leadership. But they were refused and later killed.

There are images where some students walked upto the entrance of the peoples hall with a petition.

The next day, an official memorial service for Hu Yaobang was held in Tiananmen's Great Hall of the People, and student representatives carried a petition to the steps of the Great Hall, demanding to meet with Premier Li Peng. The Chinese government refused such a meeting, leading to a general boycott of Chinese universities across the country and widespread calls for democratic reforms.

Chinese students begin protests at Tiananmen Square — History.com This Day in History — 4/21/1989

The reason the Tianamen Square is related to the article is because next year Hong Kong is planning the occupy central protests the principles of which is to demand for deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

The Shanghai Trade Zone is relevant and related to the Tiananmen Protests because PRC leadership is going to face such situations in Hong Kong. Setting up Shanghai Trade Zone now shows to Hong Kong people that PRC would prefer to make Hong Kong suffer and if Hong Kong does not behave and stop the subversive protests Hong Kong they will suffer more.

Its PRC and Hong Kong confrontation.

The danger for this is that Hong Kong people will call this bluff. And they will start to say "Hong Kong has good policies for PRC. Hong Kong has done a lot for PRC and it better PRC treats Hong Kong well".

For PRC leadership the ultimate aim is enshrined in Article 45 and 27 of the Hong Kong constitution. That means the PRC leadership have to abide by what they gave to Hong Kong people. I think PRC leadership will eventually talk to Hong Kong people compared to making Shanghai more like Hong Kong.

Article 45:
"The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election or through consultations held locally and be appointed by the Central People's Government."
"The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress. The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures."

Article 27:
"Hong Kong residents shall have freedom of speech, of the press and of publication; freedom of association, of assembly, of procession and of demonstration; and the right and freedom to form and join trade unions, and to strike."

Article 35
Hong Kong residents shall have the right to confidential legal advice, access to the courts, choice of lawyers for timely protection of their lawful rights and interests or for representation in the courts, and to judicial remedies.
Hong Kong residents shall have the right to institute legal proceedings in the courts against the acts of the executive authorities and their personnel.

Protests in Hong Kong are considered subversive by PRC leadership. Hong Kong happens to have many key landmark dates coming up and PRC is reacting because of them. There is definitely a PRC and Hong Kong confrontation. And western powers are involved.

For you to suggest the PRC will use military on Hong Kong people is dangerous.

During the Tiananmen Protests the Army was used to kill the people and regain the lost authority. PRC is loosing authority in Hong Kong many are saying. Hong Kong people would have to be brave to protest next year with such threats and memory.

Perhaps the PRC leadership will realise that there is the prospect of new (historical) images being created in a PRC region that would overlap the ones they created in Tiananmen Square. Images where protests are being done under the principles of which is to demand for deliberative democracy, self-sacrifice, and civil disobedience modelled after Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

Do you realise the threat that PRC leadership is under if Hong Kong goes ahead with such protests.

Does Hong Kong have the will power to overcome the following images and create a new history for PRC:

We really are living in interesting times. PRC and Hong Kong confrontation with western involvement.

 

[Compersion]

Double post