Sen: Bangladesh, Nepal doing better than India on Human Development

Energon

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The analogy is faulty. Sen isn't proposing theory or engaging in demagoguery. He's stating empirical observation based on qualitative and quantitative assessments. And yes, the data is garnered from grass root level organizations in the field which include governmental agencies, NGOs and INGOs. It doesn't matter who states this observation because the veracity of the data isn't the variable here. Sen just happens to be the one making the observation and incidentally he also happens to be the foremost expert on the matter.

Besides the facts on the ground ostensibly speak for themselves, India is lagging and unless something is done to address the situation this is not going to change.
 

Ray

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Does HDI cater for how the budget has to cater for all aspect of governance?

The HDI combines normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide. It is claimed as a standard means of measuring human development---a concept that, according to the United Nations Development Program (UNDP), refers to the process of widening the options of persons, giving them greater opportunities for education, health care, income, employment, etc. The basic use of HDI is to measure a country's development.
The HDI combines three basic dimensions:

  • Life expectancy at birth, as an index of population health and longevity
  • Knowledge and education, as measured by the adult literacy rate (with two-thirds weighting) and the combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrollment ratio (with one-third weighting).
  • Standard of living, as measured by the natural logarithm of gross domestic product per capita at purchasing power parity.
Are areas of policing, defence, money for CI and many other not productive in economic terms to be left out of the reckoning to realise what is in the kitty and what can be spared for the HDI as is given in the above, if that alone is the only parameters that indicate HDI.

Now compare the money spent by India on not productive areas (in economic terms) vis a vis Bangladesh and Nepal and what is left in the kitty in percentage for all three countries to devote on HDI.


If even after that, India is falling behind, then it is a serious issue.

Correct me where I have not quite understood the issue.
 
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Galaxy

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No surprise, Why Bangladeshis like Amratya Sen so much. :lol:
 

Ray

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Though a bit off topic, I find the Chinese system of CNP interesting to evaluate a nation.

Comprehensive National Power (CNP) (Chinese: 综合国力; pinyin: zōnghé guólì) is a putative measure, important in the contemporary political thought of the People's Republic of China, of the general power of a nation-state. CNP can be calculated numerically by combining various quantitative indices to create a single number held to measure the power of a nation-state.hese indices take into account both military factors (known as hard power) and economic and cultural factors (known as soft power). CNP is notable for being an original Chinese political concept with no roots in either contemporary Western political theory, Marxism-Leninism, or pre-20th century Chinese thinking.

(I am not too sure if HDI is also an input in this)
Comprehensive National Power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 

pmaitra

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My ganduncle was Prof PC Mahalanobis, the father of Indian statistics!
Now that is great. He is the God of statistical anthropology, among other things.

I have a small chart in the office with various formulae, one of them being this one:


Yes, it is called Mahalanobis Distance.
 

parijataka

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I know wikipedia is not the best source of data. India at rank 134 is in Medium HDI group of countries and Bangladesh at rank 146 and Nepal at 157 are under Low HDI group of countries. Marginally better, but still as a lay person I can see that Indians are not crossing over the border into Nepal and BD in search of livelihood, it is the other way around.

I think what Amartya Sen generally meant was India needs to do much more. India in the same list is just few spots ahead of war torn Congo and well behind Palestine that is at rank 114 - speaks much about the state of our nation.

I see LurkerBaba beat me to it...:cool2:
 
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Daredevil

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I'm only being academic without any nationalism present the HDI index over the decades of Indian, BD and Nepal. And you will see that all have made equal progress from the graph which I got from UNDP. So, I don't know where did Mr. Sen pull-out his statistics from??. Just because he is a Nobel Laureate doesn't mean he cannot pull-out statistics out of nowhere and pass it off truths and others need not accept them as gospel truths.

The graphs from here...

International Human Development Indicators - UNDP



India - Bold Green Line
Bangladesh - Bold Yellow Line
Nepal - Bold Orange Line
 

trackwhack

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Sens comments are on some of the social indicators, not HDI as a whole. There are certain indicators that we do pretty poorly on.
 

Daredevil

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Sens comments are on some of the social indicators, not HDI as a whole. There are certain indicators that we do pretty poorly on.
"The tragedy is that not only China, but even Bangladesh is now doing better on almost every one of these social indicators than India is doing.... Every country Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are ahead already," Sen said, while addressing Delhi Economics Conclave organised by CII.

From the article in first post.
 

trackwhack

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From the article in first post.
DD he specifically talks about education, life expectancy, immunisation, maternal mortality.

We have to check whether those claims are real or made up.

Further, we are fighting about us being 134 and not 156. Does no one see the irony in that?

Lets debate vehemently when the confusion is about whether we are ranked 12 or 22. :)
 
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niharjhatn

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HDI is not something that can be pushed forward just as the government sees fit. True, developing and maintaining infrastructure such as schools etc is essential, but short of throwing more money is a wasteful fashion at the poor, ultimately a lot resides on their own ability to make proper decisions etc.

Things that the government CAN control, e.g. population, health care etc are not being controlled, and instead the aforementioned money throwing occurs.

Look at other nations, such as Australia, who have an indigenous population that have a life expectancy 30 years less than the AVERAGE. Australia is a rich country, who have the money and resources to tackle what is relatively (on a per head basis) much smaller problem. But despite this, little progress has been made on that front.

Whilst I completely agree with Sen in respects that much more help is needed (and completely disagree with Energons "hell on earth" statement - wtf are you smoking), I would like him to discuss what he proposes should be done, and how it is different to what is being done now.

IMO find that unless poplation is controlled and basic manpower gets the respect it deserves, little can be done to those caught in the vicious cycle of high fertility and poverty.

Small skills training run by the govt in fields can also help improve quality, productivity and efficiency in areas where any sort of formal teaching etc does not occur. Already we are seeing many companies offer such training themselves, but the government should involve themselves in this area, creating a better workforce. One of my father's friend had the idea of running free, voluntary sessions that workers can attend if they want to, improving techniques and teaching skills that they would not learn otherwise.

Any revolution on this front needs to be done with a women empowerment policy - better enforcement on women's right to work, education, will shift the marriage dynamics can lead to more controlled pop as well as lowering the burden on the male breadwinner - as currently if the male is poor and/or unemployed, they drag down the entire family, often an extened family, with him.
 

LurkerBaba

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DD he specifically talks about education, life expectancy, immunisation, maternal mortality.

We have to check whether those claims are real or made up.

Further, we are fighting about us being 134 and not 156. Does no one see the irony in that?

Lets debate vehemently when the confusion is about whether we are ranked 12 or 22. :)
Education:

137
India
74.04


150
Nepal
68.2



163
Bangladesh
55.9




List of countries by literacy rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

------

Life Expectancy:

145
India
69.89


164
Nepal
65.46

182
Bangladesh
60.25




List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


------

I could not find immunization and maternal mortality stats on Wikipedia
 

Daredevil

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DD he specifically talks about education, life expectancy, immunisation, maternal mortality.

We have to check whether those claims are real or made up.

Further, we are fighting about us being 134 and not 156. Does no one see the irony in that?

Lets debate vehemently when the confusion is about whether we are ranked 12 or 22. :)
There is no doubt that India has a lot to do on all social indicators and totally agree with Amartya Sen on that but I don't agree with his policies that are being pushed through Sonia Gandhi's NAC.

Remaining things are academic when he says India is below BD, Nepal and other countries in certain social Indicators.

HDI includes Education and life expectancy - and we are above both BD and Nepal.

Maternal mortality and Immunization wise we are doing badly compared to BD and Nepal.
 

ace009

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Does HDI cater for how the budget has to cater for all aspect of governance?

Are areas of policing, defence, money for CI and many other not productive in economic terms to be left out of the reckoning to realise what is in the kitty and what can be spared for the HDI as is given in the above, if that alone is the only parameters that indicate HDI.

Now compare the money spent by India on not productive areas (in economic terms) vis a vis Bangladesh and Nepal and what is left in the kitty in percentage for all three countries to devote on HDI.

If even after that, India is falling behind, then it is a serious issue.

Correct me where I have not quite understood the issue.
OK - let me get into this properly then ...

Policing, defence, CoIn etc are all important and they are all relevant for productivity in a society. But they are important for every country in pretty much the same way. How much EXTRA does India have to pay compared to other countries in it's same category. Forget Nepal and Bangladesh, both of which had to go through civil wars in the recent past and both still have tonnes of terrorism problems and nowhere the resources to do something similar to India. Look at Sri lanka - civil war and all the suppression of the Tamil minority - still their HDI is better than India's. Now, you may say that it is a small country and hence can perform better - so you can look at these countries (and the naysayers comments are in brackets) Brazil and Mexico (too "latin"?), Turkey (too "European"?), China (too "authoritarian"?), Thailand (too "militaristic'?), Malayasia (nah - I have nothing). Heck even countries like Indonesia, Phillipines and South Africa with enormous problems have better HDI AND improving!
so, what's our excuse?

Also, our police is one of the most inefficient and useless in the whole world - not to mention corrupt. Big bellies and unprofessional attitude - little training and less intelligence - you think THAT is better investment than education and healthcare?

Here is some food for thought - IF development was more equal across the country, IF corruption was lower, IF bureaucracy was less f**ked up, IF our industrialists were less greedy - maybe we would have less problems with naxals, criminals and militants - and hence may need less police, CoIn. Also, as we have seen time and again, nothing solves militant and criminal problems like better economic development.
 

Ray

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Policing, defence, CoIn etc are all important and they are all relevant for productivity in a society. But they are important for every country in pretty much the same way. How much EXTRA does India have to pay compared to other countries in it's same category. Forget Nepal and Bangladesh, both of which had to go through civil wars in the recent past and both still have tonnes of terrorism problems and nowhere the resources to do something similar to India. Look at Sri lanka - civil war and all the suppression of the Tamil minority - still their HDI is better than India's. Now, you may say that it is a small country and hence can perform better - so you can look at these countries (and the naysayers comments are in brackets) Brazil and Mexico (too "latin"?), Turkey (too "European"?), China (too "authoritarian"?), Thailand (too "militaristic'?), Malayasia (nah - I have nothing). Heck even countries like Indonesia, Phillipines and South Africa with enormous problems have better HDI AND improving!
so, what's our excuse?
Interesting.

Compare Nepal's insurgency, its duration and cost.

Bangaldesh's liberation was not paid by Bangladesh. It was between India and opposed by Pakistan. The cost was borne by both.

Sri Lankan insurgency, calculate the cost and duration.

The cost of any insurgency is also dependant on the duration and the intensity.

Now compare all those with the insurgency that has been raging in India practically ever since Independence and the cost.

In so far as other countries mentioned, nowhere has anyone used such racist terms that you are using. And do check if their progress has been disrupted and also calculate the foreign assistance they have been receiving.

Philippines alone has an insurgency to tackle.

South Africa has a good reserve of gold and diamonds and is a market leader.

HDI can be attended to if there is no unproductive and expensive distractions such as wars and ongoing insurgencies.

It cannot be convenient forgotten that others did not have wars (four of them) to address since their independence.

And comparing countries is an exercise that is futile since each have different inputs.

Indeed, India has to improve, but lamenting and comparing with others does not help.
 

ace009

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Interesting.

Compare Nepal's insurgency, its duration and cost.

Bangaldesh's liberation was not paid by Bangladesh. It was between India and opposed by Pakistan. The cost was borne by both.

Sri Lankan insurgency, calculate the cost and duration.

The cost of any insurgency is also dependant on the duration and the intensity.

Now compare all those with the insurgency that has been raging in India practically ever since Independence and the cost.

In so far as other countries mentioned, nowhere has anyone used such racist terms that you are using. And do check if their progress has been disrupted and also calculate the foreign assistance they have been receiving.

Philippines alone has an insurgency to tackle.

South Africa has a good reserve of gold and diamonds and is a market leader.

HDI can be attended to if there is no unproductive and expensive distractions such as wars and ongoing insurgencies.

It cannot be convenient forgotten that others did not have wars (four of them) to address since their independence.

And comparing countries is an exercise that is futile since each have different inputs.

Indeed, India has to improve, but lamenting and comparing with others does not help.
Let's take your examples case by case -

Nepal's "insurgency" was actually a full fledged civil war - started in 1996 and ended in 2006. 10 years of actual civil war has only been seen in the Northeast of India. Most of Nepal's state apparatus was destroyed by the Maosists and what little remained was used to protect the ruling elite. Given the relative sizes of Indian and Nepalese state apparatus, economy and manpower resources, I would say that the Nepalese situation is pretty comparable.

Bangladesh liberation was truly financed and to a large extent enabled by India, but the price Bangladesh had to pay was no mean task - most of their intellectuals were killed or run out of the country, their industry and middle class was gutted and their economy was destroyed. Ever since then Bangladesh has gone through military rule, insurgency of it's own and sectarian clashes.

Sri Lanka has seen not one but two civil wars - anyone remember JVP - the pro-marxist Sinhalese group - they waged a war from 1987-1989 against the government. Then there was LTTE war - from 1976 to 2009 - which in duration and intensity is graver than anything in India.

The so-called racist terms that you say I used were actually taken from some other discussions I have seen elsewhere on this forum - I was merely using them as a satire.

Insurgency in other countries may not be reported in Indian media - it does not behoove to dismiss other countries troubles and highlight our own. We in India do have a sh!t load of problems, but we are not unique in that - others have them too. Here are the facts ...

Brazil -
The most "stable" of the countries listed saw violent insurgency bordering on civil war from 1965 to 1972. Went through a bloody military rule from 1964 to 1985. Even today, organized criminals, druglords and marxist insurgents are a serious problem for state rule. Brazil is called the most "criminalilzed country" in the world. Yet, it is doing really well in terms of social and human development.

Turkey -
Has gone through several "crisis", war and insurgencies with it's Greek population in the west from 1930s to 1980s. Turkey still have problems with Kurds in their Eastern border, with a violent insurgency going on since 1984.

China -
I am not going to discuss China becuase it requires a separate post altogether. But as we all know, China has many small and large conflicts going on inside and is a political powderkeg.

Thailand -
Communist insurgency has been active in Thailand from 1960 till 1987. There is a huge Malaya-Muslim insurgency going on in southern Thailand since 2004, which has links with Al-Qaeda.

Malaysia and Indonesia both suffer from similar insurgency and islamic fundamentalist terrorism as Thailand - Jemaah Islamiyah being the most famous group of them all.

South Africa may have diamonds and gold, but they had very little development in terms of industry and technology for a long time and have HUGE income inequality due to Apertheid. They have a raging AIDS pandemic in their country. Still they have managed their affairs better than India in the last 20 years.

My point in comparing my country with all those other countries (both in terms of HDI and in general) is to show that we in India do not value life and quality of life for the common man. We still have a big feudalistic mindset, which you can see in castism, regionalism, tribal affairs and politics, not to mention bureaucratic shenangians. Just looking at the booming economy and pointing at GDP growth means nothing - Mexico (which I forgot to mention) has higher per capita GDP than India and a better HDI, inspite of their awful political system and some of the worst drug violence in the world.

India indeed needs to improve, but the range and scope has to be acknowledged first - and HDI is one of the many relevant indices.
 

HeinzGud

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@ ace009 JVP issue in 1987-1989 is not a civil war but only a incursion......

A civil war is a war between organized groups within the same nation state or republic, or, less commonly, between two countries created from a formerly-united nation state.
where JVP was not organized. They merely threatened civilians and avoided the military every time till there demise.
 

Ray

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Ace,

You idea about the insurgencies in India, its duration, the cost to the State, the damage to the infrastructure, the cost to maintain such large forces requires a greater study before commenting.

The wars that India has fought did not come cheap either.

Also HDI can be applied in a state of peace and where there is a steady law and order environment.
 
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ace009

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@ ace009 JVP issue in 1987-1989 is not a civil war but only a incursion......



where JVP was not organized. They merely threatened civilians and avoided the military every time till there demise.
Hmmm - that just seems Semantics to me - JVP were an organized group for sure - only they were cowards - they targetted civilians and poorly armed Police ran from military.
 

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