Secular nationalism prevails over communal secularism

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by parijataka, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. parijataka

    parijataka Senior Member Senior Member

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    Rama Jois, former Chief Justice of Punjab and Haryana High Court, on how vote bank politics is defining `secularism` in India.

    Secular nationalism prevails over communal secularism

    It is amazing that political parties, who in their word and deed, be it in election or selection, think of caste and religion—so communal in their outlook—certify themselves as ‘secular’ and brand others, particularly the BJP, as communal. The reason is that such divisive politics gives them electoral dividends. In this distorted state of discourse, I place before the nation certain constitutional principles of what secularism means.

    Without doubt, secularism and equality are the two pillars of our Constitution, incorporated in Articles 14, 15 and 44. Art. 14 declares that the state shall give equal protection of law to all persons. The general mandate of Art. 14 is made more specific by Art. 15 which reads “(l) The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them.” Art. 44 directs the state to enact Uniform Civil Code (UCC) to constitute the foundation of secularism. Mahatma Gandhi, in his book My Picture of Free India, wrote that in an India well governed by the Constitution, there is no scope for classifying citizens as minority as all of us are the children of the same Mother India. This view is manifest in Art. 44.

    The Supreme Court, sitting as a Constitutional bench in the Shah Bano case, declared that so long as Art. 44 is not implemented, the Constitution would remain a dead letter. It said so because the Muslim Personal Law flagrantly discriminates against women on the basis of sex because it enables a Muslim male to marry four wives and divorce at will. Yet, those who oppose enacting UCC brand themselves as secular and those who cite the constitutional mandate as communal. Despite the mandate of Art. 15, those who enact laws for separate universities for Muslims claim to be secular and those who oppose it are branded as communal. The Congress, in its manifesto, promises a separate budget for Muslims in matters relating to education, scholarships and banking—in direct contempt of Articles 14 and 15. A party like BJP that cites constitutional provisions for equality is dubbed communal. A Congressman, who on the day he was sworn in as Union minister for minorities, declared that there would be five universities for Muslims, is celebrated as secular. Being constitutionally impermissible, this idea was rejected by the Thorat Committee.

    Secularism in Bharat, in the sense of equal treatment for all, was part of Rajadharma, our ancient constitutional law. Just two verses would establish this. “Just as the mother earth gives equal support to all living beings, a king (State) should give support to all without any discrimination.” (Manu Smriti X–311). “The king (State) should afford protection to compacts of associations of believers of Veda (Naigamas) as also of disbelievers in Veda (Pashandis) and of others in the same manner in which he is under an obligation to protect his fort and territory.” (Narada Smriti vide Dharmakosha P-870). In this land, where the Vedas were ever regarded as supreme, the ancient constitution mandated kings to respect and protect disbelievers in the Vedas. But, now, those who stand by the idea of dharma are berated as communal. Agonised at the BJP being branded anti-secular, Bharat Ratna C Subramanyam, a Congressman, condemned it as practising political untouchability and fundamentalism. (C.S. Speaks P. 334-335).

    Just as Rule of Law and arbitrariness are regarded sworn enemies, Rajadharma and theocracy were sworn enemies. Just as darkness can’t exist where light exists, fundamentalism can’t exist where dharma exists. That is why our Constitution confers the fundamental right to practice any religion under Article 25. In essence, dharma is the soul of Indian nationalism. Vote-bank politics is communal secularism. Secular nationalism should prevail over it.
     
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  3. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    Soon he will be branded as a communal-- just wait.
     
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  4. stoned_blasphemer

    stoned_blasphemer Regular Member

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    just typical BJP rheotic..nothing new.
     
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  5. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    yes, When you speak exclusively for muslims, give salary only to muslim maulavies, give cycles to only muslim girls, give loans to only muslims, provide 30k for a muslim girl only, give free haj subsidy for muslims while charge INR600/- as yatra tax from each Hindu going to Amarnathji in a muslim majority state, You are a secularist but anyone who talks of one India one people and one religion-India are all communal people.
     
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  6. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    I am Really surprised at Modi fans on this forum why did't you guys said any thing about Digvijay Singh, Shakeel Ahmed after they did a Modi (Burkha and Kutta Speeches) like talks
    Diggi Raja :- he allegedly wrote "Baccha Baccha Ram Ka Raghavji Ke Kaam Ka" has hurt the majority community. FIR has been lodged and Social media says it has the same effect as Modi's controversial speeches.......

    General secretary Shakeel Ahmed and party MP Rashid Masood that the 2002 Gujarat riots had led to the formation of the terror outfit Indian Mujahideen (IM). Was Owned by Menakshi Lekhi and really embarassed Rahul Gandhi :-
    Shakeel Ahmed's remark: Rahul warns party men; Jaitley says Congress painting IM as riot victim
    Link :-Shakeel Ahmed's remark: Rahul warns party men; Jaitley says Congress painting IM as riot victim - The Times of India
     
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  7. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Please read my comments. I had strongly objected to what Diggydog twitted.
     
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  8. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    Where is the Diggi Specific thread ??????? I did't find any on DFI.......... Thread for Modi and not any thing for the Cangressis.........

    By the way i think BJP took @Singh Sir's Advice Modi is silent and Meenakshi Lekhi, Arun Jaitley and Ravishankar Prasad doing Counter Attack forcing Congis on Back foot...........
     
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  9. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    SShhh how dare you evil communal hindu, Italian mama doing Bharat Nirman with Diggi chacha and Hafeez Saeed (ji)
     
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  10. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    ^^^^^^^^^Ho raha Bharat Nirman :- Digvijaya Singh backs Shakeel Ahmed
    NEW DELHI: Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh on Monday supported his colleague Shakeel Ahmad who, in a tweet, accused the BJP and the RSS of communal politics.

    "Religious fundamentalism is at the root of terrorism," Digvijaya Singh told reporters while saying that even before BJP leader Narendra Modi became the chief minister of Gujarat, his party was practising divisive politics.

    "Before independence, the Muslim League was also practising religious fundamentalism," he said.

    A tweet from Ahmad alleging that the banned terror outfit "Indian Mujahideen was formed after the Gujarat riots" stirred a political storm Sunday with the BJP reacting sharply to it.

    TOI link :-http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Digvijaya-Singh-backs-Shakeel-Ahmed/articleshow/21247461.cms

    I think Diggi Chacha is a Bjp Leader........:laugh:
     
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  11. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    BTW, who changed the constitution to upturn Shah bano case Judgement? Who opened the gates of Raam JanamBhoomi? Were they seculars or Communal?
     
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  12. stoned_blasphemer

    stoned_blasphemer Regular Member

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    WTF? Where did I say I support any of those?

    Response to pseudo secularism is not open communalism. I can respect Modi's economical policies, but I don't have to take his hindutva bullshit. I support complete equality under the law, not Congress pseudo secularism and not BJP hindutvavaad
     
  13. angeldude13

    angeldude13 Lestat De Lioncourt Senior Member

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    they took our lands and gave it to the st and sc's.
    what kind of freedom or democracy is this??

    in U.P if a general have more than 12 kille then they will be given to the st/sc but no such rules for muslims
     
  14. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I also support equality and my definition of secularism is equality for whole of India irrespective caste, creed or state or landmass.
    Regarding Hindutvaa, I have never supported it being enforced ojn anyone nor will I ever but anyone who talks of equality is a Hinduvaadi believing in the principles of Hindutva. I do not want you to claim yourself to be so but as long as you are for equality, We are brothers from different mothers.
    Muslims of this nation in their history never needed to be projected as helpless. They are a strong religion with martial traditions irrespective of who they originally were. If Guru Gobind cud convert timid Hindus into ferocious warriors by indoctrinationation, I am sure even the converted Hindus to Islam too have reached that state.
    Please tell me which muslim in India is helpless and who needs special status? None. Than why do they fall for these idiots from the communal Parties? If I were a muslim, I will walk up to NAMO, Question him, debate with Him to try and understand his POV. AND if needed to change him, I will join him and force a change from inside rather than from outside. Why dont you join BJP in strong numbers and ensure that BJP is never able to do anything against Muslims ever if you think they do so?
    Folloow the advice of this brahmin. Andar ghuss kar badlo BJP ko, Ladai say kuch nahin milega. The people who support BJP are not their permanant voters. We Brahmins are one such group. we are not blind supporters of any party. be like us. Demand what you want.
    What stops Muslims from putting conditions to BJP & NAMO for support in 2014? You don't even want to speak or open a dialogue. It is this rigid stand of muslims which works against them.
     
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  15. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I have written this urdu couplet just for you just now and your state of mind and my endeavor,
    khwahish thee dillon main, Armaan dono kay thay
    Naa tum kuch boley, naa hum kuch kah sakay.

    Aisa naa ho kee parday main izzat lut jayeh.
     
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  16. stoned_blasphemer

    stoned_blasphemer Regular Member

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    You first have to imagine what a poor muslim man in India is like. He lives in a ghetto, is not educated properly, lives on meagre income. He couldn't care lesser about hindutva and Islamism as long as he gets his bread, a happy family and his share of equality. But parties like congress have used them as vote banks, and supported their needs by giving them special stuff. It still doesn't improve hi conditions in the society. Congress is muslim loving for sake of votes but their human development is still low. Same is with rest of the country, apart from us elites (yes we are elite oblivious to the ----ed up state our poor people are in).

    And to improve the state of these poor people, I don't see the answer in BJP, nor in Congress. Even most of their policies are same when it comes to a lot of issues. We are fighting over definitions of secularism and other bullshit while country deteriorates day by day and children die of malnutrition, violence and other bullshit. So I don't see the answer in either BJP nor Congress. Bhagwan jane apna kya hoga.

    You know what will happen if BJP comes to power? Some decisions will be made, there will be some influence. But basically our human development will be go to shit. And what Modi did in Gujarat by corporate whoring won't work in whole India. ---- India seriously. We will be in gutter for at least a decade.

    I will be very happy to be wrong. Sorry for the rant. :(
     
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  17. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I agree with you. The plight of muslims in India today is worst than that of dalits. Most muslims of India are deprived of education and livelihood. But how do we change it? I never discriminated as an officer in IN between religions nor will I ever. I want muslims to be part of the main stream of India and prosperous. But how do we do it? Why have muslims of India allowed themselves to be vote banks and not ask pressing questions to the people whom they voted? BJP had a govt only for six years in 63 yrs of our history. Why do muslims follow Fatwaas for things other than religion? Why can't you stand together and ask for what you want? democracy is after all for this only. If I cud rally around muslims, I will go and ask Congress and BJP and negotiate with both to get a better deal for my people and be truthful about that deal. If I am a muslim I will, not reject someone just for what the propaganda says.
    NAMO has is the only BJP person who has not used words like muslims/minorities. He speaks about either Gujraaties or Bharties . I have not heard him speak muslims or hindus ever. More than you, I have reasons not to vote for him if I were a VHP guy. he killed over 150 hindus in firing to stop riots in 2002, arrested over 27000 hindus to stop them, asked for help for police forces from states around him which were ruled by khangrass and they refused to send him forces. In 2002 Feb, IA was deployed in strength on Pak border and Gujrat did not have a contonment. People say and educated like you agree that from 28th feb till 01 Mar thr was mayhem for three days. Feb 2002 was not leap year and after 28th feb came 01 march. So thr was no lapse of three days. Pls read things and stop being guided by the surmons of idiot maulavies who have done more bad for you than good. they are the ones who taught you suicidal bombings and terrorism against the tenets of Islam. Namo destroyed over 300 temples in Gujrat for development more than what baber did in Gujrat. he was nicknamed hindu baber by VHP.
    I did not teach you islam, nor did I do so to anyother muslim, why are you guys going against your own religion and behaving like Kaafirs? I believe in god, no one can call me Kaafir even by the strictest definition of Quraan.
     
  18. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    If he's that poor then who's to be blamed for that?

    Is it the community who bars girls from studying or the same community leader who trade them for narrow political gains?

    CHoice becomes clear an Italian waitress who brought India in a decade of degradation or a nationalist who has a controversial record, but who is an able administrator.

    The choice is yours. With failures in both internal and external security India perhaps need a ruthless man at the helms.

    Please elaborate on this.

    To create jobs India needs factories. We cannot have an economy based on services only.

    The other models are not better, do we want a Mulayam model or a Mamta Banerjee that close industrial projects?
     
  19. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    I guess you should see some threads, these news were already posted in them. And if people keep criticizing them on their every tweets or statements by creating threads, we'll see flood of threads here. They're really unworthy. That Shakeel Ahmed's comment is very much shameful. Is he trying to say Indian Muslims are so intolerant that they can go to any extent to seek revenge of riots ?? India has been seeing riots from around past 150 years. I don't think Indian Muslims are on path of terrorism due to 2002. It's Pakistan behind all this terrorist attacks brainwashing some youths and using them since 90s.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
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  20. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    I don't think Modi prevails Hindutva at all in his speeches and also in Gujarat.

    We need Secular Governance, Secular Politics is a myth. Nobody's secular.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
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  21. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    No, BJP's policies are very much different than Congress. BJP got power in center for only 5 years and you can see the clear difference.

    Modi isn't doing corporate whoring. Nobody's talking about Modi's socialist schemes which is very shameful. And he's encouraging business legally which is always good for public. I think you don't live in Gujarat and that's why you don't know why people vote for him. This business thing is not major factor. Major factor is Modi's work for people. Infrastructure development, 24 hrs electricity, roads,etc are very good in Gujarat.

    I suggest you as a person who understand Human Development Index that it matters but RANKING on the basis of HDI doesn't, many factors affect it that you can't judge any state on the basis of Ranks. Gujarat is at 11th place and it's only behind Maha and Tamilnadu,rest are smaller states and life is way better in Gujarat than in them. India is very much behind in HDI but it still a better place to live than many countries which are ahead of it in Ranks. We must not compare Apples with Oranges.

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