Scotland to vote on independence in 2014

Will the United Kingdom breakup ?


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Ahsan Bin Tufail

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Referendum for the separation of Scotland from the rest of the UK

Source: Scottish independence: how will Scotland separate from Great Britain - Telegraph

It will be around breakfast time next Friday when the final result from 32 local counts across Scotland will be declared, deciding, perhaps forever, the future of Great Britain.
If the result is Yes, Alex Salmond has declared Independence Day to be March 24 2016: exactly 309 years since the Acts of Union that joined England and Scotland were signed.
The separatist administration has set out the blueprint for a new nation in a 600-page white paper, covering pensions, health, welfare and defence.
The Westminster government – in an attempt to deny credibility to the independence campaign – insists it has drawn up next to no contingency plans for the event of a Yes vote.
The truth is, a Yes vote would be a giant step into the dark for the entire United Kingdom – and nobody quite knows what happens next.
THE DEBT
The prospect of a Scottish default on its share of Britain's £1.2 trillion debt would lumber the new state with Wonga-sized interest rates for a generation – just as it would be most in need of international lending to support public services.
But that is precisely the threat that Alex Salmond has issued unless he gets his own way on a currency union. David Cameron has called the ultimatum "chilling", and one that will bring "crippling" interest rates on Scottish families.
In a move to reassure lenders, the Treasury has said it would guarantee the entire UK debt in the immediate event of a break-up, and within minutes of a Yes vote next week it is likely the Dept Management Office would reassure markets that – whatever Mr Salmond threatens – the UK would shoulder the debt in the immediate term.
In the long run, an independent Scotland faces "significant" tax rises and spending cuts of around £6 billion a year higher than the Coalition austerity programme if it is to get its debts on a sustainable footing.
Otherwise, an ageing population, higher borrowing costs and declining oil revenues risk pushing debt to over 300 per cent of GDP within 50 years.
Even if it does pay its debts, credit ratings agencies warn that Scotland will pay higher interest rates as a new nation with no credit history – pushing up mortgage costs.
Alex Salmond has insisted Scotland will continue to use the pound in a currency union – a position all three Westminster leaders have ruled out, because taxpayers south of the border would have no reason to continue supporting Scotland's banks and public deficit.
One option would be to continue to use sterling, but without the backing of the Bank of England as lender of last resort – much like Panama uses the US dollar. That could see financial institutions flee south, analysts believe. Interest rates on Scottish mortgages and credit cards would be set from London – but not take into account the country's unemployment or personal debt levels. It would also require spending cuts to build vast currency reserves.
The only way for an independent Scotland to set its own monetary policy would be to set up a new currency. That could trigger a wildly fluctuating exchange rate and high transaction costs at first – and Scotland, a small, new country with no record of currency management, would be regarded as more like Greece than Norway by international lenders.
A fourth option would be joining the euro – despite the fact question marks linger over the long-term future of the currency union.
THE BANKS
Goldman Sachs, the major bank, has warned that even the prospect of exiting the pound could trigger a rapid and dangerous run on the banks as savers withdraw their deposits – just as happened when Czechoslovakia broke up in 1993. Investors would have "a strong incentive to sell Scottish-based assets".
Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, has promised to act as a lender of last resort during the transition period – but it may do little to calm panicked depositors.
Lloyds Banking Group and the Royal Bank of Scotland are likely to move south of the border due to the stakes held by the British government. Standard Life has made contingency plans to move. The major flow of capital would almost certainly shrink Scotland's economy, to the south's advantage.
DEFENCE
Expelling Trident, Britain's nuclear deterrent, from Scottish waters has been a mainstay of the nationalist cause for decades - the SNP blueprint promises to achieve this by 2020. No-one knows where the submarines, and the stockpile of nuclear warheads, would go.
Faslane, the nuclear submarine base on the Clyde, would become the headquarters of a new Scottish defence force with a budget of £2.5 billion a year, comprising two frigates from the Royal Navy fleet and three infantry battalions named after historic regiments such as the Black Watch. The SNP insist Scotland could become a Nato member, but the alliance is split over whether this could happen.
A separate Scottish air force would have a fleet of 12 Typhoon jets and six Hercules transporters, while the remainder of the UK would still have access to RAF Lossiemouth. A Scottish spy agency would be allowed to share intelligence with MI5 and MI6, the SNP say.
General Sir Richard Shirreff, the former deputy supreme allied commander in Europe, has called the plans "amateurish" and "dangerous".
EU MEMBERSHIP
Scotland would "continue" as a member of the European Union on the same terms as the UK, Alex Salmond has insisted. Negotiations with Brussels would start immediately following a Yes vote and could be finalised within 18 months, he said.
A principle of "continuity of effect" would mean Scotland receives the same special deals as the UK, including the right to remain outside the Euro, opting out of the Schengen zone and keeping Margaret Thacher's rebate – worth £300 million a year to Scotland.
But Jose Manuel Barraso, the outgoing European Commission president, insists that it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for Scotland to join the bloc because it would require unanimity from all member states – including those who have joined on far worse terms. Spain has blocked Kosovo's entry because it is seeking to halt the Basque breakaway movement.
Latvia, Ireland and the Czech Republic insisted that Scotland would not enjoy fast-track entry and go through the full accession process - which can take up to a decade.
THE WELFARE STATE
Scotland has run a budget deficit bigger than that of the rest of the UK for the past 25 years – meaning without subsidies from Westminster it will need to implement an austerity programme far steeper than George Osborne's to balance the books.
Yet the White Paper says there is "no requirement" to cut spending, and reversing Coalition welfare reforms such as the so-called Bedroom Tax is a key plank of the separatist campaign. This is despite an ageing population and greater levels of welfare dependency.
As well as undercutting the UK corporation tax rate by three percentage points, the SNP say an independent Scotland would retain free university tuition, increase child care for preschool children and uprate benefit payments more quickly than in the UK. The Scottish Government also promises to introduce a more generous state pension, and opposes increasing the retirement age to 67.
OIL
The White Paper proposes establishing a Norway-style sovereign wealth fund to squirrel away oil revenue that is currently absorbed by public spending. The Scottish Government claims £1.5 trillion of oil and gas is left under the sea. But Sir Ian Wood, one of Scotland's most successful oil explorers, has warned that reserves have been dramatically overstated and will decline steeply within 15 years. An independent Scotland may end up importing shale gas from England.
Westminster will face a nightmarish negotiation over where to draw new borders under the North Sea.
Mr Salmond wants to make Scotland a world leader in wind energy – but the industry is currently heavily reliant on subsidies from English and Welsh taxpayers.
THE QUEEN
Under the White Paper, the Queen would remain head of state – continuing the Union of the Crowns of 1603. The Church of Scotland has said subsequent monarchs will need to separate coronations, for the first time since Charles II in 1651, to enshrine their position as King or Queen of the Scots.
God Save the Queen may be scrapped as Scotland's official national anthem.
However, many separatists favour a republic, leaving the long-term future of the monarchy in doubt. Constitutional experts have suggested the Queen may have to appoint a governor general, as in Australia, as an interim arrangement.
IMMIGRATION
British citizens in Scotland, and those born in Scotland living elsewhere, would be automatically granted Scottish citizenship.
The White paper says Scotland would implement a much more liberal migration regime in order to support the economy and offset low population growth forecasts, with incomers more than doubling to 24,000 a year.
Ed Miliband this weekend raised the prospect of the Westminster government installing border guards – a move the Scottish government insists is unnecessary.
TELEVISION
Under the White Paper, Scots would continue to have access to "all current programming" provided by the BBC, including EastEnders, Doctor Who and Strictly Come Dancing, in exchange for shows produced by a new Scottish Broadcasting Service. The SBS would adopt BBC Scotland's staff and assets.
But John Birt, the former BBC director general, he said the idea of a programme- swapping venture is "make-believe" and said Scots would have to pay extra to view shows that would only be available on "commercial terms".
A BRITAIN DIMINISHED?
The British government argues that a vote would create just one new nation – Scotland – and the rest of the UK would exist as the "continuing state", its status within the EU, Nato, IMF and the United Nations in tact.
But foreign envoys in London private warn that whatever name the new country of England, Wales and Northern Ireland takes, it would be diminished on the world stage.
The chances of securing a renegotiation in Europe for a smaller Britain could be slimmer. Britain's voice in Washington would be quieter. And China and Russia – which last year dismissed Britain as a "small island no one listens to" – could use the vote to argue that Britain no longer merits a seat at the UN Security Council.
"¦ AND A POLITICS IN TURMOIL
Forget the Clacton by-election and the party conference season.
In the event of a Yes vote, all Westminster politics south of the border would be pushed aside to focus on carving up a settlement with a new northern neighbour.
Ed Miliband and other Labour figures are likely to have a seat at the table, meaning the Cabinet could resemble the wartime coalitions of national unity.
David Cameron has insisted he won't resign – but some Tory MPs say there is no way he could remain in office as the Prime Minister who lost the Union.
It's doubtful whether Ed Miliband, whose party has dominated Scottish politics for sixty years and was supposed to be a bulwark against nationalism, could survive the backlash. Losing Scotland would make Labour majorities in Westminster far harder to achieve.
By law, an election is to be held in May 2015. It's up for debate whether that would go ahead, and whether MPs would be returned from Scottish constituencies.
 

Ray

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The Beginning of the End of the Great Britain?
 

Compersion

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I do not term what is occurring in Scotland to be "Independence". I term it to be "Re-organisation". Elizabeth II will still be the Monarch and appointment of Governor General would be needed like the other states that come under the Monarchy of Elizabeth II. Sure there would be "more" sovereignty and perhaps a international political status but one can say that what is happening will still have external compulsion or interference from England (Since Elizabeth II will be Monarch).

Queen would need governor general in Scotland if it leaves UK, says expert | Politics | theguardian.com

The Scottish government white paper on independence says the Queen will remain head of state in an independent Scotland, as she is in the UK and 15 other nations, such as Canada and Jamaica, known as the Queen's realms.
In extreme circumstances, governor generals have reserve powers to act without ministerial advice to:

"¢ Appoint a prime minister if an election has resulted in a hung parliament.

"¢ Dismiss a prime minister.

"¢ Force a dissolution of parliament and call new elections.

"¢ Refuse a prime minister's request for an election.

"¢ And refuse assent to legislation.

In 1975, Australia's then governor general, Sir John Kerr, dismissed the Australian prime minister, Gough Whitlam, whose government had been plagued by resignations and faced the blocking of its budget by the upper house of parliament. and appointed the leader of the opposition as caretaker prime minister in his place.
Would it be a possibility that such a event might lead to a (re)-integration of countries under the monarchy. A perhaps more formalized and regularization set of rules and determinations with England at the center. The Commonwealth Realms declared to be a sovereign state and with more formalized approach (with Political appointees) and one can go even further by replacing United Kingdom and Norther Ireland in the UNSC. The Queens Realms be declared a formal entity to replace the United Kingdom.

Since there is no discussion to remove the Monarchy (that would be more a "Independence" approach) the current Scotland situation is more akin to making it have better management from before perhaps because the Parliamentary system was having strong localisation of politics in Scotland.

For example Canada, Australia, England, Norther Ireland, Bahamas and other states have the Elizabeth II to be the Monarch. I imagine Scotland to be positioned accordingly within the Queens Realms not "independent" but with different status and management.

Commonwealth realm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Added Later:

Will Scotland look at Ireland at a later stage. The main ingredient will be European Union.

Republic of Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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bengalraider

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Since in this thread we have heard just about everything from every Scottish personality ever i give you the one Scotsman every self respecting Simpsons lover will listen to before voting groundskeeper willie speaks on the referendum.
on a side note this may also be an indication as to the way the general American media and public are taking this.

 
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Compersion

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The reason England and Scotland are "together" and will be in the near future (be it under current system if not under the commonwealth queens realms). and also the reason and the monarch that will be custodian of the military of Scotland and diplomacy of Scotland. The importance of above individuals becomes more significant. It also brings a fresh and new lease to their role in the public and society. It like they will be reborn when Scotland is (re)born.

The queen unfortunately is not young and the latter two don't compare in stature at all well at least the next in line does not from what one imagines and assumes.

Will European Union play dirty and promise support if the English monarchy threaten economic and sovereignty oblivion. Like with Ireland,

Republic of Scotland ... that is many years away and won't be seen in the queens lifetime, the people of England and Scotland won't do such a undeserving thing would they to the queen ...
 

Ray

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Losing Scotland will make Britain a third-rate nation, says China
The Chinese state media has mocked that Britain will become a "third-rate nation" if Scotland votes for independence


Britain will become a "third-rate nation", a mere tourist site and a "history museum" if Scotland votes for independence, according to the Chinese state-owned media.

The Beijing News roundly mocked the idea of a divided Britain, saying that the country would lose its status as a "world centre of politics, economics and culture".

The Global Times, another major Chinese state newspaper, also suggested that the UK would fall from "a first-class country to a second-class one" and that David Cameron would "become a 'sinner' of history for the UK".

"The Scottish independence campaign also tells us that established developed countries like the UK are far from stable as we previously imagined," it gloated.

In a nod to China's own worries about independence movements in Tibet and Xinjiang, the Global Times noted in its Chinese edition that "any step towards separatism can provoke a chain reaction".

In June, the Chinese premier Li Keqiang said he wanted to see a "united United Kingdom" at a joint press conference with the prime minister, adding that he wanted a "strong, prosperous and united United Kingdom".

China News Wire said it is a "hard moment for the United Kingdom".

"The concept of unity is the reason why the United Kingdom exists. If Scotland splits, it will hurt Britain's self esteem and also reduce the impact of the country on the international stage. The world will suffer too. Britain cannot ignore this because Scotland means a lot to the UK," it said. "It is a wild gamble and for the Scottish, it is not easy to break up."

"Most Scottish who want to be independent do so out of practical interest," said The Paper, a website. "They want more financial rights."

Chinese nationalists welcomed the move. "Britain should stop interfering in our domestic politics. Now they have a fire in their own backyard. I support Scotland to be independent. They have been fighting for it a long time," said one commenter on Weibo.
Losing Scotland will make Britain a third-rate nation, says China - Telegraph
The Chinese have always mocked Britain that it has pretensions to great power capabilities.

But yes, the division of Great Britain will indeed have serious repercussion on all aspect of Britain and it surely will become more insignificant in the Chinese eyes than what it is now.
 

Voldemort

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One in four Scots believe British spies are secretly working against the'Yes' to independence campaign- More than a quarter of Scottish voters believe British spies are working to stop the country voting for independence, a new poll has revealed.
Some 26 per cent of Scots think it is 'probably true' the security services are working to protect the union ahead of the referendum on 18 September.
The findings illustrate the growing divide betweenScotland and Westminster which is fuelling the'Yes' campaign for independence.www.google.co.in/gwt/x?gl=IN&hl=en-...mpaign.html&source=s&q=Scotland+tricks+mi5+uk
 
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bengalraider

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The fun part is with over 2/3rds of European oil fields in Scottish hands an independent Scotland can be a veritable petrostate, as Willie in the video of my previous post says "in no country rich in oil do the men wear pants ".
 

Meriv90

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One thing is sure RBS is dead, between the referendum and the 11 billions fail of BCE test it is dead.

"Yes" vote is suicidal both sides, i only wished Scotland to gain independence so UK suffer so much that at the IN/OUT referendum in 2017 they would understand and vote to completely stay inside EU. The problem is that Scotland would gain independence at best in 2016 and the referendum IN/OUT is just one year away, not enough to let them understand the path they are choosing. The best would be that the IN/OUT referendum would be around 2018/16.

Another benefit of the Yes referendum would be a precedent in Europe for Catalans, Sicily, Basks, etc.. etc... what better way to build up Europe than to end the old geography while staying all under the same flag?
 

Mad Indian

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One thing is sure RBS is dead, between the referendum and the 11 billions fail of BCE test it is dead.

"Yes" vote is suicidal both sides, i only wished Scotland to gain independence so UK suffer so much that at the IN/OUT referendum in 2017 they would understand and vote to completely stay inside EU. The problem is that Scotland would gain independence at best in 2016 and the referendum IN/OUT is just one year away, not enough to let them understand the path they are choosing. The best would be that the IN/OUT referendum would be around 2018/16.

Another benefit of the Yes referendum would be a precedent in Europe for Catalans, Sicily, Basks, etc.. etc... what better way to build up Europe than to end the old geography while staying all under the same flag?
I want UK to split up just for a smug satisfaction. I just hate Britain. I am not sure why an Italian like you would want it though?
 

Zebra

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(Cameron makes heartfelt speech on Scotland's possible separation...)
 
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captonjohn

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Time has changed everything. There were time when Britain has colonised a lot of countries. There were a time when Britain divided India into two parts India and Pakistan. Now this is the time that is doing same with them. Now Britain will see the pain of partition when it breaks piece by piece. Time never forgive anyone.
 

Meriv90

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I want UK to split up just for a smug satisfaction. I just hate Britain. I am not sure why an Italian like you would want it though?
Uk created most of the problems i know, their choice created the fascism and in consequence Nazism after WWI, it isn't well knowed but it pushed for a lot of conflicts in south america in the past, in the "triplice alliance war" it pushed Argentina,Brazil and Uruguay to do a genocide to kill all Paraguayans over 8 years old, just because it was becoming industrialised and in consequence free from English influence. Tatcher threat to use nukes on Argentina if Mitterand wouldn't have given her the codes of the Exocets missiles. The same Iron Lady that already sent UK troops against Sadam Hussein when Bush Sr. was still considering a peaceful way. They pushed to support their most important ally in europe (Poland) for the treaty with Ukraine that started the conflict. There is a tons more, and probably you indians have even more hatred.

But it is all in the past, the hatred brings nothing and fuel things like fascism.

As i explained in my post, i wanted UK to split up so they understand how much a Union is worth, and in consequence in the next referendum that is about staying inside Europe they vote to stay, completely stay because until now from UK we had just opposition to reforms.
 

Compersion

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[video=youtube_share;-YkLPxQp_y0]http://youtu.be/-YkLPxQp_y0?list=UU3XTzVzaHQEd30rQbuvCtTQ[/video]
 

Mad Indian

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Uk created most of the problems i know, their choice created the fascism and in consequence Nazism after WWI, it isn't well knowed but it pushed for a lot of conflicts in south america in the past, in the "triplice alliance war" it pushed Argentina,Brazil and Uruguay to do a genocide to kill all Paraguayans over 8 years old, just because it was becoming industrialised and in consequence free from English influence. Tatcher threat to use nukes on Argentina if Mitterand wouldn't have given her the codes of the Exocets missiles. The same Iron Lady that already sent UK troops against Sadam Hussein when Bush Sr. was still considering a peaceful way. They pushed to support their most important ally in europe (Poland) for the treaty with Ukraine that started the conflict. There is a tons more, and probably you indians have even more hatred.

But it is all in the past, the hatred brings nothing and fuel things like fascism.

As i explained in my post, i wanted UK to split up so they understand how much a Union is worth, and in consequence in the next referendum that is about staying inside Europe they vote to stay, completely stay because until now from UK we had just opposition to reforms.
OH come on now, fascism and Nazism are not as bad, atleast not for indians. If Hitler had not destroyed the British militarily dominance, India and the rest of the colonial world would never have gotten independence. Hitler was far less of a bastard than Churchill, who let 10 million Indians to starve to death in Bengal(far bigger than the jews killed by Hitler) just to keep his "reserves" up!

I think you should go through this thread if you want to know more about British atrocities http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-history/35651-most-evil-individual-20th-century.html
 

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