SC judge says sorry for Taliban remark

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by I-G, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    SC judge says sorry for Taliban remark
    7 Jul 2009, 0559 hrs IST, TNN


    NEW DELHI: Calling himself "secular to the core", Supreme Court judge Markandey Katju on Monday apologised for his unsecular comment —
    "Talibanisation of the country" — made two months ago while dismissing a Muslim student’s plea to keep his beard in a convent school in Madhya Pradesh.

    The apology came as a Bench comprising Justices R V Raveendran and Katju 'withdrew its April 30 order dismissing Mohd Salim's appeal against the school's decision not to allow him to keep his beard.

    On Monday, it allowed Salim's review petition and referred his appeal to the Chief Justice so that it could be earmarked to another Bench for hearing.

    During the last hearing, Justice Katju had observed that secularism could not be overstretched to permit "Talibanisation" of the country.

    While asserting that he was secular to the core, he had also said, "We don't want to have Talibans in the country. Tommorow a girl student may come and say that she wants to wear a burqa, can we allow it?"

    SC judge says sorry for Taliban remark - India - The Times of India
     
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  3. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Unnecessary... It is quite appalling that the judges also now a days have to bend to the whims and fancies of a few...
     
  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Keeping a beard is not mandatory.

    Though there are conflicting opinions amongst what Muslim call 'scholars'.
     
  5. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    I dont think it was unnesessary .. As turbans and beards are important part of Sikhism its even the same with Muslims . having beard doesnt make anyone Taliban or its talibanisation of country .
    Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari and Maulana Azad all use to have beard as it is part of thier religion.
     
  6. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    ^^ But I'm quite sure they didn't demand to keep a beard when they were in school !!! Religion is being taken too far in this country and it is a form of Talibanisation in my opinion...

    As Brig Ray said, there is no concensus amongst scholars as to whether the beard is necessary or not, so it is essentially a matter of personal belief, but that belief cannot be exercised in school or until you reach a certain level of maturity....

    If this kid was in school, I'm quite certain that it was his parents or elders around him who possibly told him that to be a proper muslim he had to grow a beard, or else he would have been committing a "sin". Because, at that age I doubt a kid is mature enough to make a coherent decision, leave alone something on a matter that even scholars are still debating...

    Once the kid reaches a level of maturity (which can be around 18) he can possibly make his own decision without the prodding of elders...
     
  7. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Its part of the religion for followers . Which they can choose
     
  8. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Come on man , its like saying Sikh children to not grow hair which is part of Sikhism . its a matter for choice even for Muslim. And if this guy wants to have a beard and there is nothing wrong in that .
     
  9. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    ^^ Thats exactly what I'm saying... Keep religion out of it till the kids reach an age maturity (which I consider around 18)... then let them decide what they want to do themselves... It is this extreme parent prodding that I don't like...
     
  10. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Now you are playing with words .. We are Indians not Westerners and have to very long way to be like Westerner . For Indians religion is thier identity and its no different for Indian Muslims or Indian Sikhs .
     
  11. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Correction, he's not a guy, its a "kid"... It makes all the difference in the world... if it was a guy, chances are that the decision was made by him... This is a kid, so chances are that it was elders prodding...
     
  12. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    How old is he ? 14-15 .
     
  13. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Newspaper report said schoolkid... Haven't read it fully though... so I suspect it must be between 13 and 15...
     
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    On growing of beard



    Is Growing Beard Mandatory in Islam?

    Dr. Ibrahim B. Syed President, Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc. Louisville, KY

    Several Muslim scholars are of the opinion that growing beards might be encouraged, but it is not mandatory in Islam. A few argue that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, had reasons for his time only, 1400 years ago, to address his companions to grow beards and this doesn’t mean that these reasons have to exist today. Islam is a rational religion. Growing beards can actually cause trouble to some of the Muslims who live in the West today. If growing beards is in the Noble Qur’an, then it becomes mandatory. Some of our Prophet’s sayings and laws were made only to solve situations that occurred 1400 years ago. These few sayings don’t necessarily have to be applied today. Only the Noble Qur’an’s laws are to be followed at all times and in all places.

    It is true that growing a beard in Islam is not dictated in the Glorious Qur’an and it is a tradition of the Prophet. Hence Muslims can construe it as not mandatory. There are Muslims who don’t grow a beard and could be perfect Muslims.

    History

    The ancient monuments and papyrus show that the Egyptians shaved their beards and their heads. The Bible tells us that when Joseph was summoned to appear before the Pharaoh, a barber was sent for to shave Joseph, so that Pharaoh’s sight would not be offended by a dirty face. There are many passages in the Bible referring to the profession of a barber. Moses commanded that all who recovered from leprosy should shave. This was done as a health precaution, because throughout history the Jews have honored the beard as a mark of manhood. To this day, the orthodox Jews have little respect for clean-shaven men. During periods of mourning, the ancient Jews allowed their beards to go untrimmed, but generally their beards were trimmed regularly. The prophet Ezekiel refers to an ancient custom in these words: “Take thou a barber’s razor and cause it to pass upon thy head and upon thy beard.” The razors of those days were made of flint and oyster shells.

    In the third century BC, the Macedonians under Alexander the Great began their conquest of Asia and lost several battles to the Persians who grabbed the Macedonians by their beards, pulled them to the ground and speared them. This resulted in a general order by Alexander that all soldiers be clean-shaven. The civilians followed the example of the soldiers and beards were not in vogue. Barbers were unknown in Rome until 296 BC when Ticinius Mena came to Rome from Sicily and introduced shaving. Shaving soon became the fashion and the barber shop became the gathering place for Roman dandies. No people were better patrons of the barbers than the Romans. They often devoted several hours each day to tonsorial operations, which included shaving, hair cutting, hairdressing, massaging, manicuring and the application of rare ointments and cosmetics of unknown formulas. The great ladies of Rome always had a hairdresser among their slaves and the rich nobles had private tonsors, as they were then called. Barbers were so highly prized that a statue was erected in the memory of the first barber of Rome.

    Muslim scholars

    Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi says, “Growing the beard may be regarded as commendable but not obligatory, and, accordingly, shaving it would be classified as Makruh rather than Haram. It is true that none of the companions was known to have shaved his beard. Perhaps there was no need to shave, and perhaps growing the beard was a custom among them.”

    Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states: “ Thus it is important for us to recognize that we are not allowed to ostracize men who do not have beards nor are we to question their basic faith.”

    Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi wrote, “ We, however, should not abuse or defame those of our brothers who neglect this Sunnah (growing the beard).”

    Mufti Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti (member of the North American Fiqh Council. Current Position: Mufti and Fiqh Scholar, Islam Online), says, “I myself don’t believe that it is more than Sunnah. As a matter of usul al-fiqh, the action of the Prophet (SAAWS) doesn’t mean anything more than you had better to follow it, but you have the option not to do it. The only moment we have obligation is when he gives a commandment. The hadith that says leave the beards is paraphrased through the understanding of some of the companion (RA) like Ibn Umar. There is a difference between a flying logic and a realistic fiqh. However, leaving the beard to grow is not a condition for the correctness of the Salaah. Whoever shaves off his beard and prays, then his prayer is not void.

    I would say growing a beard is Sunnah. Those who say it is Fard, have a different opinion.” Al-Muqnei Book of Fiqh Vol 1 says, “It is recommended to grow the beard.”

    Shaykh Hisham says, “The question is sometimes asked: ‘In what circumstances is it allowable for a male Muslim to shave his beard off or not to grow one at all? Is military service a valid excuse?’ To which we say: al-darurat tubihu al-mahzurat -- Necessities make prohibited things permitted. The question is to define necessity in this case. Protection of one’s life, safety, livelihood, and religion all qualify as such, and in some countries military service is unavoidable except at unbearably high personal cost. Indeed in some countries the beard was made either illegal by law under threat of major punishment, such as in Republican Turkey, or a cause for harassment and persecution by the authorities as in other secular-oriented states. And Allah knows best.”

    Christian perspective

    It is better for a man to have a beard than to not have one. He who has a beard should not think less of him who does not, and vice-versa. It is mandatory for a Christian presbyter to have a beard. In several places the Bible says that men should grow the beard.

    Jewish perspective

    Wearing of beards is actually a Judaic tradition, which derives from the notion of avoiding doing anything, which could possibly result in a transgression of God’s commandments to the Jews (of which there are 613). One of those is the prohibition against suicide and self-harm. In that respect, religious Jews are precluded from cutting any hair growing around the jawbone.

    Shehzad Saleem

    When a question was asked if it is compulsory in Islam for men to keep beards, the brilliant young scholar, Shehzad Saleem who is the Director of Al-Mawrid Institute of Islamic Sciences (51-K, Model Town, Lahore, Pakistan) says, “Keeping a beard is a desirable act for men. The Prophets of Allah kept beards and expressed their liking for it since this is from among the norms of human nature. It is an expression of manliness and as such a sign, which distinguishes men from women. However, the Prophet (sws) did not regard keeping beards as part of the Islamic Shari’ah. Also, it is not compulsory for men to keep a beard and if a person shaves his beard he may be deprived of some reward, but he is unlikely to be punished on this. This view also conforms to the Shafite jurists (See Dr Wahbah al-Zahili, Fiqhu’l-Islami wa Adillatuhu, Vol. 1, p. 308.) and to many scholars of Hadith including Qadi ‘Ayad “( See Nawawi, Sharah Sahih Muslim, 2nd ed., vol. 3, [Beirut: Daru’l-Ahya al-Turath al-’Arabi, 1972], p. 151) who regard shaving the beard as makruh (undesirable). (While defining makruh Abu Zuhrah says: The jurists say that the perpetrator of makruh is not to be condemned while a person who desists from it is praiseworthy. (Abu Zuhrah, Usulu’l-Fiqh, 1st ed., [Cairo: Daru’l-Fikr al-’Arabi, 1958], p. 41). The issue of keeping a beard is not discussed anywhere in the category of Divine Guidance. In other words, the Qur’an and Sunnah are devoid of any such ruling. “

    “Ahadith are describing to the Muslims the proper way of growing a beard and a moustache. Instead of having large moustaches and shaven beards, the appearance should be the other way round. In other words, the Ahadith are not directing Muslims to grow beards and moustaches; what they are saying is that if they want to grow both, then the proper way is to lengthen the beard instead of the moustache and clip the moustache instead of the beard. “

    “Consequently, the outcome of all these three possibilities is that none of the Ahadith of the third category is asking Muslims to keep beards. This leaves us with the first and second category of Ahadith and these narratives classify the keeping of beard and as such place it the category of Innate Guidance present in a person. While being in this category, there can be two opinions about the nature of this directive. Someone can say that keeping a beard is obligatory in nature like some other directives of this category for example telling the truth or being honest. However, in my opinion, it does not belong to the class of obligatory directives. Rather it is a desirable thing, which will not hold a person liable if he does not follow it.”

    The writer is an eminent speaker and scholar on the interpretation of Qur’an and Sunnah in the light of modern knowledge and an Islamic Renaissance activist. He can be reached at < [email protected]>)

    Pakistan Link - Letter & Opinion
     
  15. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Well quite matured i can say if he is 15.
     
  16. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    This arguement is about beard Fardh or Sunnah .. but this doesnt change the fact thats beard is part of religion .
     
  17. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Anybody knows how old this kid is ??? Or his identity for that matter ??? I don't think it has been revealed anywhere in the media...
     
  18. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    If u want i can search ..
     
  19. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Yes, please go ahead and search... it would be very interesting to know how old this kid actually is...

    I vaguely remember some news channel saying he was a class 9 student of a Convent School... so I suspect he's no more than 13 or 14 years old...
     
  20. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Class XII .Mohammed Salim

    Beard row: MP school may amend rules
     
  21. ZOOM

    ZOOM Founding Member

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    Even I find it the word Talibanisation very odd especially from that Judge while referring to the petition relating to maintaing a Beard. This are very sensitive matter and should be deal with lots of care and caution, especially while dealing in the avenues of our Judicial system.

    Judge comment of Taliabanization is an effective example of mistaking Cultural Symbols of Islam like Beard and Burqa as a instruments of religious extremism.
     

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