Sanitising Hindu History is not enough

hit&run

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I do not disagree with what you posted but I see don't see how it has any relation to my argument that Christianity is no less oppressive towards women. But then again you have a habit of making anti-Brahmin posts for no apparent reason so I won't hold it against you.
You have taken the bait.
 

civfanatic

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And I think the Christians reformed not due to any inherent redeeming quality of Christianity but rather their rejection of Christianity dictating all aspects of life as it did in the Dark Ages.
You still have not answered my question. Why were the Christians able to reform their society, when the Hindus failed to do so?.

The Western Europeans rejected the dogmas promoted by the Church and pursued a rational, scientific course which resulted in their civilization emerging superior to all others. But the Hindus remained subject to religious dogmas and an oppressive and constrictive social order which used religion as the justification for its existence.
 

nrj

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But the Hindus remained subject to religious dogmas and an oppressive and constrictive social order which used religion as the justification for its existence.
Agreed. Hindus were busy burning their women because her aged husband died while Europe worked for Industrial revolution.
 

civfanatic

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After reading your posts again and again one can confidently say it's laborious and biased.
I wonder if I am being biased. It is sad that being skeptical and seeing things for what they are is now called "being biased".

The only reason you are a Hindu is because you were born one. I was also born and raised in a Hindu family; if anything, I should be biased in the reverse direction. I consciously criticize this religion because I am grown up and am capable of thinking for myself. However, I understand that not everyone is capable of questioning the traditions that they were brought up with.


Without being rude, I would like to ask, what you mean ^^^ by reform.

Every religious school of thought claim to be reformist, including Hinduism.
Merriam-Webster's definition of "reform" is acceptable to me:
a : to put or change into an improved form or condition
b : to amend or improve by change of form or removal of faults or abuses
Reform - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Hinduism can call itself whatever it wants, including "reformist". It doesn't change the historical facts.


If you call them reform, then you have contradicted yourself because the so called reforms like ''Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and others'' are from the same stock i.e. from population practicing Hinduism before.
Those sects (Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs etc.) are called reformist because they all found fault in "Hindu" practices and sought to remedy them; however, they did this by pursuing their own separate path, rather than attempting to reform "mainstream" Hinduism. Organizations like Arya Samaj can be called reformist in a more formal sense, because they sought to remedy Hindu practices that they considered backwards while still remaining in the Hindu/Vedic fold.

The rest of your post is mostly rambling, so I will ignore it.
 

hit&run

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You still have not answered my question. Why were the Christians able to reform their society, when the Hindus failed to do so?.

The Western Europeans rejected the dogmas promoted by the Church and pursued a rational, scientific course which resulted in their civilization emerging superior to all others. But the Hindus remained subject to religious dogmas and an oppressive and constrictive social order which used religion as the justification for its existence.
Stop talking like a village Idiot.

You are not even comprehending what you are writing.

It was Law of the land (made by the people) which forced Christianity to put its practices dormant.

Christianity is as it is, it was before.

The law of the land has been always shaping the religious practices.

What do you think IPC have been doing so far. After Independence Hinduism is automatically reformed and thanks to constitution and IPC of India.

Sati Pratha is illegal.

Child marriage is illegal.

Widows have autonomy to marry.

Social discrimination and discrimination of all the casts are illegal.

Doors of temples have been thrown open.

What do you want Hindus to do now when they themselves have drafted these laws when given power, like European had.

Have some gut to admit the phenomenon of drafting and making the constitution effective as collective effort of Indians with majority of Indians as Hindus.

When Hindus register their will in the constitution which also talks about their religion then Oh ! it is something else at work, bling....... bling...... bling. but when Europeans forced Christianity they they are scientific rational and other bum licking.
 

nrj

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So the credit to reform Hinduism goes to Indian State in 1947 ?

What were we doing till then? What were we doing till British took over?

How could Europeans technologically progress when we thought burning our own women is better activity than inventing steam engine ?
 

civfanatic

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Stop talking like a village Idiot.
I wonder who is talking like a village idiot. Let others read our posts and decide for themselves.


It was Law of the land (made by the people) which forced Christianity to put its practices dormant.
The people who made the "Law of the Land" were themselves Christians, were they not?

Are you aware that America's Founding Fathers, for example, were all devout Protestant Christians? This did not prevent them from guaranteeing freedom of religion and speech in their Law of the Land (Constitution).


What do you think IPC have been doing so far. After Independence Hinduism is automatically reformed and thanks to constitution and IPC of India.

Sati Pratha is illegal.

Child marriage is illegal.

Widows have autonomy to marry.

Social discrimination and discrimination of all the casts are illegal.

Doors of temples have been thrown open.
The Indian Constitution is shaped by the Western ideal of a modern democratic nation-state. These reforms are due to the Western influence exerted on India.

Indians reformed themselves by adopting Western ideals, not through an indigenous evolution of Indic philosophy.
 
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hit&run

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I wonder if I am being biased. It is sad that being skeptical and seeing things for what they are is now called "being biased".
Yes you are biased the first post I quoted had unnecessary mention of Brahmins in it and following was my explanation to it. Let me see what else you have mentioned below.

The only reason you are a Hindu is because you were born one
I was also born and raised in a Hindu family; if anything, I should be biased in the reverse direction. I consciously criticize this religion because I am grown up and am capable of thinking for myself. However, I understand that not everyone is capable of questioning the traditions that they were brought up with.
.

I am not here to read you idealist philosophy. I am a hindu and you have to deal with it.

Merriam-Webster's definition of "reform" is acceptable to me:

Reform - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
If reform is such a broad term then you can not use it to target one specific cast or religion.

Hinduism can call itself whatever it wants, including "reformist". It doesn't change the historical facts.
History of Hinduism is immune from you bias.

The historical fact that it has survived as a civilization without bullying of blasphemy, crusades and invasions speaks volume about it. Every single Hindu script endorsed reforms but rejecting the same in one line expose your agenda or naivety.

Those sects (Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs etc.) are called reformist because they all found fault in "Hindu" practices and sought to remedy them; however, they did this by pursuing their own separate path, rather than attempting to reform "mainstream" Hinduism. Organizations like Arya Samaj can be called reformist in a more formal sense, because they sought to remedy Hindu practices that they considered backwards while still remaining in the Hindu/Vedic fold.
The same way Hinduism found fault in their business of God. They need to be defensive about it because Hinduism is more comprehensive and detailed then they could ever become.

The rest of your post is mostly rambling, so I will ignore it.
You can not sell your snake oil to me.
 

Das ka das

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Agreed. Hindus were busy burning their women because her aged husband died while Europe worked for Industrial revolution.
Sati was practiced by 10 percent of population during its peak. Also British greatly exaggerated prevalence of sati. Its quite amazing that's its always the same people in this forum that never miss a chance to spew venom against Hinduism.
 

ashdoc

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Stop confusing Western culture and Christianity. Treatment of women in Europe was horrendous when Christianity took center stage, it was not for nothing that the period was called the DARK AGES. Seriously buddy you don't know jack about Christianity or Hinduism to continue to make such idiotic claims. The level of self hate you show in your religion and culture is also appalling.
dark ages occurred because barbarians captured europe . but women's treatment was better in europe since before their invasions .

we certainly can learn a thing or two from christians about treating our own coreligionists well and treating women well .
 

ashdoc

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BJP lost 2004 due to its negligence of the rural poor, caste had very little to do with it. In 2009, declaring Advani as PM candidate was the major reason for BJP's downfall. And BJP was traditionally dominated by Banias not Brahmins. Dynamic leaders such as Modi are OBC. Come to Gujarat, you will see SC's, ST's, and Muslims enthusiastically supporting Modi.
only in gujarat have all castes come together . but what is the condition in UP Bihar ??
 

ashdoc

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I have seen many posts on this forum in this regard. Let me give you some quotes directly from Gitopanisad to clear this
confusion.

BG 4.13

catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

So this three modes of material nature basically are mode of goodness(sattva-guna), passion(rajo-guna) and ignorance(tamo-guna). Each one of us is situated in one of these through our behavior and desires due to our past karmic activity. Brahmanas are situated in mode of goodness, Kshatriyas in mode of passion, Vaishya in Passion+ ignorance and Sudras in ignorance. Now it is clear from the above verse that it is the work that one does, qualifies him to be in a particular varna and it is not based on birth. This caste system is a rather bastardized version of this actual varna system where one born in a brahmana family automatically becomes a brahmana which is a farce(I am in this category actually :laugh:).

Similarly you must have across this verse as well

janmana jayate sudrah
samskarad bhaved dvijah
veda-pathad bhaved vipro
brahma janatiti brahmanah

"By birth one is a sudra (lowest caste), by the purificatory process one becomes a dvija (higher caste), by study of the Vedas one becomes a vipra, and one who knows Brahman is a brahmana."

So the real problem is the twisting of principles to actually suit one's needs and does not reflect the actual Dharmic principles.

In the 18th chapter of Bhagvad Gita, the functions of the varna system are explained

18.41
brahmana-ksatriya-visam
sudranam ca parantapa
karmani pravibhaktani
svabhava-prabhavair gunaih

"Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by their qualities of work, O chastiser of the enemy, in accordance with the modes of nature."

18.42

samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."

18.43
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam

"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the ksatriyas"

krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam
vaisya-karma svabhava-jam
paricaryatmakam karma
sudrasyapi svabhava-jam

"Farming, cow protection and business are the qualities of work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others."

The above shows you what varna you are actually in based on your function and qualities. There are many more qualities in 13,14 and 18 chapter, which desribe these varnas in more detail, and you can read them to get a clearer idea. For me, I believe in
"Kalau Sudra Sambhavah" :laugh:
that is all theory . in reality caste is determined by birth and it has become very rigid .
 

civfanatic

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Yes you are biased the first post I quoted had unnecessary mention of Brahmins in it and following was my explanation to it. Let me see what else you have mentioned below.

.

I am not here to read you idealist philosophy. I am a hindu and you have to deal with it.



If reform is such a broad term then you can not use it to target one specific cast or religion.



History of Hinduism is immune from you bias.

The historical fact that it has survived as a civilization without bullying of blasphemy, crusades and invasions speaks volume about it. Every single Hindu script endorsed reforms but rejecting the same in one line expose your agenda or naivety.



The same way Hinduism found fault in their business of God. They need to be defensive about it because Hinduism is more comprehensive and detailed then they could ever become.



You can not sell your snake oil to me.
You are not even arguing any points anymore. You are just posting for the sake of posting.

I won't waste my time unnecessarily. You are free to believe whatever you want.
 

Das ka das

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dark ages occurred because barbarians captured europe . but women's treatment was better in europe since before their invasions .

we certainly can learn a thing or two from christians about treating our own coreligionists well and treating women well .
Why did it stay in the Dark Ages for over a thousand years? You obviously arr deficient in European history and the bloody pogroms launched by the Church that plunged Europe into the depths of barbarism.
 

nrj

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Sati was practiced by 10 percent of population during its peak. Also British greatly exaggerated prevalence of sati. Its quite amazing that's its always the same people in this forum that never miss a chance to spew venom against Hinduism.
Yeah, are you sure it is 10%? And not 9% or 10.12% ? Wonder who made the statistics.

And what stopped rest of Hindus to put end on such moronic practice? Oh ya, they were waiting for Brits to take over & implement ban.

Truth hurts. Nobody is spewing venom. Only highlighting the regressive practices in dark ages which kept India behind western civilization. And this denial of own mistakes is classic assuring that we don't learn.
 

ashdoc

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Christainity and islam are accused of perpetrating genocide,rape and arson of other cultures in order to propogate their culture but hindus have never commited such heinious acts.Anyone who has doubts about these can read articles of holocaust,colonialism,slavery in africa,islamic invasion of india etc which are readily available in the internet.
thats because hindus are half vegetarian and therefore are cowards---another reason for them to convert to christianity . at least it will inject some manliness in them .
 

hit&run

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I wonder who is talking like a village idiot. Let others read our posts and decide for themselves.
Let me see what you have wrote below.

The people who made the "Law of the Land" were themselves Christians, were they not?
People who made Law of the Land of India were Hindus. Not only that they allowed the same Law of the Land to comment on their religious practices without protest.

Are you aware that America's Founding Fathers, for example, were all devout Protestant Christians? This did not prevent them from guaranteeing freedom of religion and speech in their Law of the Land (Constitution).

Are you aware the first prime minster of India was a brahmin ?

The Indian Constitution is shaped by the Western ideal of a modern democratic nation-state. These reforms are due to the Western influence exerted on India.
You are now making spectacle of your self, now you can throw all the if and buts the fact remains It was inherited by Indians who were majority of Hindus. If further shows how reformists Hindus in general are that they adopted rational, scientific, western model.

Indians reformed themselves by adopting Western ideals, not through an indigenous evolution of Indic philosophy.
Oh ! now its indigenous. Definition of Reform by the link you posted doesn't establish its dependence of it on being indigenous or inherited from aliens.

Reform is a reform is reform ?
 

Das ka das

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Yeah, are you sure it is 10%? And not 9% or 10.12% ? Wonder who made the statistics.

And what stopped rest of Hindus to put end on such moronic practice? Oh ya, they were waiting for Brits to take over & implement ban.

Truth hurts. Nobody is spewing venom. Only highlighting the regressive practices in dark ages which kept India behind western civilization. And this denial of own mistakes is classic assuring that we don't learn.
This statistic is from the book 'Invading the Sacred' by Rajiv Malhota and others.
 

ashdoc

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Why didn't the low castes stop from voting for a Hindu Ibrahim like Nehru then?
nehru was hardly a brahmin of the traditional order . he trumpeted his modernity and his secularism as also his agnosticism . anyway his so called ' sacrifices ' during independence struggle made him popular .
 

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