Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s

J

John

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kalantak rifle is 5.56/7.62 mm capable right??? anyways the 5.56mm is ideal for policing and law enforcement. 7.62/6.8mm is ideal for war...the new 6.5mm is ideal for COIN ops.

YouTube - 6.5 Grendel Alexander Arms --- Future Weapons S03E07

6.5mm Grendel...modified M-16/4...good for COIN ops.. will kill in one shot and still light enough. the round is supersonic beyond 1200..better than the ak-47.
 

Ray

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Whether the INSAS will kill or maim is the question of range i.e. how far the person was when he was hit.

Why should it maim and not kill?

The reason is not hard to find.

If a man is killed, it is Finito. Sympathy, a cremation at a later stage after the battle, and no more. Maybe, a medal!

Now, if a man is maimed. He is howling. Bad for the morale as it affects those next to him and demoralises. He has to be attended to or else again bad for the morale. The ones to attend means less ‘bayonet strength’ since they are looking after the man and not involved in the battle. That much easier for the party that maimed.

This wounded man will have to be evacuated (If he were dead, it could be attended to later). Again depleting bayonet strength! If he is not attended to and not evacuated, he will howl and it will be real demoralising and none would like to believe that this would be his fate if hit!

When the hospital are full of maimed chaps and the do gooders and TV come to give tea and gifts, they will see the 'horrors'. That will demoralise the nation!!

But if the chap was dead, who would care?

As far as auto fire, 3 round, the US army does not bother of replenishment. They have air to create the environment for resupply. India does not have that capability. We have to conserve ammunition, especially in the mountains! Hence, we are the ‘Ek Goli, Ek Dushman’ chaps!

Now, why should the INSAS not be good for COIN?

That is the most simplistic explanation that could be given!
 

sayareakd

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is it true that every wounded soilder you need 6 extra soilders to take care, in care of terrorist their is no such thing, therefore they fight till death.
 

Yusuf

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Ray Sir,

Your take on the rifle itself during Kargil and thereafter.
 

Antimony

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I can't believe Army is complaining about this. Wasn't it Army which said INSAS must have three round burst because rapid fire is simply waste of bullets.
Not only that, ever seen something go on full auto? Accuracy goes for a toss.

Its may be good for a jihadi letting loose in a crowded bazar where the object is to scare as many as possible and hopefully kill some (aka spray and pray) but it may not be acceptable for a professional force trying to actually engage targets and limit collateral damage at the same time.

Still, I suppose the option to have it would be good. As my my understanding the Armalite models (M4/ M16 derivatives) have both options
 

badguy2000

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well, in the world, only china uses 5.8 MM guns and steel bullet shells.
 

Ray

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Ray Sir,

Your take on the rifle itself during Kargil and thereafter.
Except for the plastic, there was nothing to complain about!
 

Antimony

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well, in the world, only china uses 5.8 MM guns and steel bullet shells.
well, in the world, only china uses 5.8 MM guns and steel bullet shells.
What's a steel bullet shell? Are you referring to a Full metal Jacket? All countries which have signed on the Geneva Agreement (which include India and China) are manadated to use FMJ ammo.

This brings us to an interesting aspect about caliber characteristics: stopping power.

According to many, death of the enemy is ot as important as the ability to stop him in tracks. A hit on the enemy may be lethal, but may not be enough to stop him in his tracks. In other words, he may still continue to engage you and your comrades. A large number of the receipients of gallantry honours across the world are posthumous; they continued fighting after they had been shot repeatedly. Its no use killing someone if they manage to take out a large part of your team with them before they go.

That is why many look for a caliber with sufficient stopping power, and apprently the larger calibers have more of that. One way to do that is using softnosed or hollowpoint bullets, but they are banned by the Geneva convention.

This gets me thinking. One of the benefits of Hollowpoints is that they expand and stop inside the body of the target, thereby causing a large amount of damage. This also means that the bullet does not go out and hit someone else beyond the intended target, like an innocent bystander.

I do not know if COIN operations are out side the purview of the Geneva convetions (police ops are, many depts. in the Us use HPs) then maybe we can look at HP ammo for our COIN forces?
 

Antimony

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Except for the plastic, there was nothing to complain about!
Sir,

What about the plastic, did it heat up or crack in the cold? Also was the weight a problem? I read somewhere that is composite materials had been used the INSAS would have been lighter
 

AkhandBharat

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Whether the INSAS will kill or maim is the question of range i.e. how far the person was when he was hit.

Why should it maim and not kill?

The reason is not hard to find.

If a man is killed, it is Finito. Sympathy, a cremation at a later stage after the battle, and no more. Maybe, a medal!

Now, if a man is maimed. He is howling. Bad for the morale as it affects those next to him and demoralises. He has to be attended to or else again bad for the morale. The ones to attend means less ‘bayonet strength’ since they are looking after the man and not involved in the battle. That much easier for the party that maimed.

This wounded man will have to be evacuated (If he were dead, it could be attended to later). Again depleting bayonet strength! If he is not attended to and not evacuated, he will howl and it will be real demoralising and none would like to believe that this would be his fate if hit!

When the hospital are full of maimed chaps and the do gooders and TV come to give tea and gifts, they will see the 'horrors'. That will demoralise the nation!!

But if the chap was dead, who would care?

As far as auto fire, 3 round, the US army does not bother of replenishment. They have air to create the environment for resupply. India does not have that capability. We have to conserve ammunition, especially in the mountains! Hence, we are the ‘Ek Goli, Ek Dushman’ chaps!

Now, why should the INSAS not be good for COIN?

That is the most simplistic explanation that could be given!
Thank you Ray Sir. Now I understand.

However, I was watching a show on discovery where the host mentioned that an AR with 7.6 mm cartridges have more stopping power than 5.56. However, the disadvantage is that the quantity is more in 5.56 cartridges.

But, with Kevlar vests and other such advancements, the dropping power of 5.56 is questionable. So, shouldn't INSAS be modified to use 7.2 mm instead of 5.56 or atleast 6.8 mm?
 

tharikiran

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The problem with 7.6 mm cartridges or as the caliber increases is the recoil. The higher the caliber the greater the recoil. We all do know about AK 47 recoil.The strategy behind AK 47's full auto was to overwhelm the enemy with the first strike or rain of bullets. Result, we lose accuracy.

A compromise has to be achieved between caliber, recoil, max. effective range and stopping power. A 6.5mm might just be the answer.
 

AkhandBharat

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Yes, if you watch the series "Modern Weapons" the guy mentioned that the recoil has been reduced to the extent that the AR with 6.8 mm cartridges are equally accurate compared to 5.56 mm
 

AJSINGH

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INSAS is actually not a good weapon.My father is in IA and in counter insurgency missions .he says that counter insurgency combat is very different when compared to combat with any army.For that there should be a weapon which should have kill not injuring .Probably that injured terrisot will get up and start firing again .fight till death is there moto.Insas is good weapon but we need a better one.According to my father that AK 47 is best weapon with necessary upgrades nothing can beat that weapon.
 

AJSINGH

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AL 107 is will do good i mean it has grenade launcher which is very well needed by foot soilders and with night vision .it may be the best assult weapon excpet ofcourse if someone develops laser weapons
 

F-14

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i gusse badly Injuring a terroist moron is better than Kill that Fool because by catching him alive we can foil may plans that these swines will be cooking up
 

AJSINGH

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i gusse badly Injuring a terroist moron is better than Kill that Fool because by catching him alive we can foil may plans that these swines will be cooking up
good point!!! , but u see in the same situation these bastards dont respond to interogation no matter what,they will die but wont spit out their plans
 

amitkriit

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INSAS was a bad design since it's introduction in Army. It doesn't have ergonomic design, malfunctions frequently, now it adds a new one: It doesn't kill. Can DRDO come up with anything functional at all?
 

Yusuf

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INSAS was a bad design since it's introduction in Army. It doesn't have ergonomic design, malfunctions frequently, now it adds a new one: It doesn't kill. Can DRDO come up with anything functional at all?
Why don't you go back in this thread and read what Brig Ray whi served in Kargil has to say about the rifle.
 

amitkriit

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Why don't you go back in this thread and read what Brig Ray whi served in Kargil has to say about the rifle.
Army is complaining about INSAS's effectiveness in counter-insurgency operations, militants operate in an entirely different way when compared with regular army. DRDO needs to develope weapons which are handy (easy to operate/handle ergonomically), dependable and effective in urban-warfare scenario, we must learn from Israel.
 

Yusuf

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Army is complaining about INSAS's effectiveness in counter-insurgency operations, militants operate in an entirely different way when compared with regular army. DRDO needs to develope weapons which are handy (easy to operate/handle ergonomically), dependable and effective in urban-warfare scenario, we must learn from Israel.
That it's not suitable for COIN it doesn't make it a bad rifle. It was designed to fight wars and after the feedback from Kargil war, it was refined. Your statement that why the DRDO can't make domething that works is uncalled for as the DRDO under circumstances has done very well. We all depend on the missiles it has come up with, ATV and many other systems. Insas is good for the troops on the border. COIN ops is something the pros can comment on. But Brig Ray has found nothing wrong with it.
 

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