Russians reluctant to share design information on FGFA !

[ersakthivel]

The views expressed by Ajai Shukla are genuine, because the Su-30 MKi in IAF itself is facing lot of issues, so IAF knows a thing or two about the engine tech of FGFA.

Item 30 engined FGFA may take a longer time and it will be suicidal for IAF to wait that long and by just an engine plus airframe FGFA(because the avionics is going to be done by us) for huge 100 plus million dollars with no design sharing from SUKHOI which is essential to remodel PAKFA into FGFA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

By looks, There is hardly any remodeling from PAKFA to FGFA except the same suit what followed in case of SU-30 to MKI ..

 

[ersakthivel]

Gunning for the PAK-FA: What the IAF really wants | idrw.org

So what I posted before was true. IAf is afraid that PAKFA will be less stealthier than both J-20 and J-31.

Thats why they are accusing the russians of failing to give design info which will help them improve the stealth specs of FGFA.

 

[makmohan]

US Media calls Pak-FA Rubbish after Indian air force say it is a disappointment | idrw.org

 

[jmj_overlord]

US Media calls Pak-FA Rubbish after Indian air force say it is a disappointment | idrw.org

from the article it seems that russians are just showmanship than performance and technology.......no wonder french and israeli technologies were incorporated into su 30....... can we do the same with pak fa ?

 

[SajeevJino]

Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow​

Despite initial high expectations, the Indian Air Force appears to be souring on a joint development deal with Russia for a new fifth-generation fighter jet, according to the Business Standard, a major Indian business publication. The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered," said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar at a Jan. 15 meeting, according to minutes obtained by the Business Standard.

That contrasts sharply with high hopes voiced by the Indian government when the joint project, to which the Indian government has contributed $6 billion, began.

"[The new plane] will have advanced features such as stealth, supercruise, ultra-maneuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities," the Indian government said in a December 2010 press release. Those are all hallmarks of "fifth generation" aircraft.

The Indian Air Force did not respond to a request for comment.

But it is hardly surprising that the invisible-to-radar Russian fighter planes don't quite live up to the billing, according to defense experts reached by FoxNews.com.

"The Russians are certainly not up to speed in avionics," Robbin Laird, who has served as a consultant to the Marine Corps and Air Force and started the website Second Line of Defense, told FoxNews.com. "For them to pull off a stealth airframe, and for it to actually be stealthy, the engine technology has to be very good. Americans have done it with the F-22 and F-35. But it's not easy to do. No one has done it but ourselves."

India is the largest arms importer in world, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, and its military import large amounts from both Russia and western countries.

"The Indians for a long time have split their fighter industry between western work and Russian work," Laird said.

"Clearly they want to go more Western because they recognize that the Russian stuff just isn't up to the western standards. You only have so much money to go around, and like everybody else they've got financial pressures," he added.

Other security experts said that India has a history of incompetence when it comes to military procurement, and so it did not necessarily reflect badly on Russia.

"India has had so many problems absorbing modern equipment and supporting it that it's difficult to know whether it says anything about the Russian systems at all," Anthony Cordesman, who has served as a consultant for the State and Defense departments and who holds the Burke Chair in Strategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told FoxNews.com.

Laird said that the Indians may be souring on the Russian deal in part to save funds so they can build more French-designed Dassault Rafale fighter jets, which can be built relatively quickly, unlike the still-to-be-designed "fifth-generation" planes under development with the Russians.

"The Rafale is a very nice aircraft, and they'll look at all the stuff the French are putting on that aircraft, and they'll look at the Russian stuff and say, why am I going down that path? Do I trust the Russians really are going to reach to the standards we set?"

Laird said that India would be best off purchasing the already-developed fifth-generation Lockheed Martin F-35 – but that the United States government had not given permission for such a sale, even though Indian officials had asked several times to be able to consider the plane.

"If they get a chance to really look at the F35, they would want it," Laird said. "The Indians have requested 3 times to talk to people about the F-35B, which is the true revolutionary aircraft -- and the administration never answered the mail, they've blown them off, it's typical of the Obama administration. We love our allies except if you want anything."

He added that India may in fact not be at the level where it should be trusted with F-35s, however, so the administration would be right to turn them down. But he argued that the F-35 is ahead of what Russia has.

"The Russians are good aircraft designers, and they know how to build an agile aircraft, and [the new plane they are working on] is a step forward the path of more agility and flexibility, but the problem is -- it's not all about the frame, it's about what your put in it. The F35 can see around itself, 360 degrees, can see a missile take off 820 miles away, it has a radar that's extraordinary, and the systems are integrated. The Russians I think are nowhere near that at this point."

Laird admitted that there was a kind of "ho-hum" aspect to those types of features, but said that the information they provide to pilots and commanders would pay off in a combat situation.

Cordesman also said that he was unsurprised by the Indian complaints, given what he knew about Russian air capabilities.

"They're very good at building airplanes," Cordesman said. "The problem that Russia, since the collapse of the former Soviet Union, has been putting out the military equivalent of show cars. They look good, but it isn't always clear how practical they are and how many of the specifications they can actually meet."

Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow | Fox News

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

if under the next government india decides to pull out from fgfa programme then we need to examine what will be our alternatives in heavy fighter category.the first that comes to mind is a bigger version of amca(max takeoff weight about 35-40 tons similar to su030 mki) with bigger engine(18 ton class)and aesa radar and avionics.the"ahca" or advanced heavy combat aircraft would share 90-95% design with amca would be acheivable though i am realy skeptical of engine even if drdo manages avionics and radar.of course this will take huge amount of investment in our domestic aviation sector and it would be a natural choice to involve private sector companies in design,developement and production.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Russians want to export PAKFA not give technology to india.

 

[CCP]

Did they signed any contract on technology transfer?

 

[Known_Unknown]

What a joke of an article and an even bigger joke of a so-called "journalist". Shortcomings of the FGFA aside, which other country is willing to allow India the sort of technology transfer, co-development and literal hand-holding and guidance in the field of building up a domestic arms industry from scratch other than Russia? Do we have any option other than the FGFA? Is the US willing to provide us the design details of the F-35 and make us an equal co-development partner for $6 billion?

Beggars can't be choosers. This is not even a question of "let's abandon the FGFA for the AMCA or some other indigenous project", because first of all, the FGFA (i.e. Sukhoi T-50) is actually flying, while the AMCA is still on paper. Secondly, even when we finally build a prototype of the AMCA three decades from now, it will still be 4th gen at best.

So let us not fool ourselves. We're already getting the best value for money both in terms of the equipment, the knowledge transfer/technology and the strategic partnership it helps us to build with an important P5 country. This whole sordid story (and the one with the Gorshkov, IMO) is a perfect case of Indians being whiny, self-entitled, self-important little bitches who moan and scream about how they deserve more when in reality, they don't have the capability to build anything on their own. Even if the Russians transferred the entire design tech of the FGFA to India tomorrow, we would not be able to build the damn plane because our metallurgical and manufacturing industries are decades behind the Russians.

 

[hit&run]

American media is speaking on its own and trying to make sure we get none. If one knows how to join the dots then what Ajai Shukla has been doing makes perfect sense for this fox article coming out at a time when he is doing the same. One must ask these moron if USA is ready to agree with Indian laws/clause of procurement.

BTW such debates can not be stopped as long India doesn't start building its own. And for that one has to physically exterminate these factions within, who for last 60 years have been successfully sabotaging indigenous efforts one way or the another.

 

[mattster]

It is not an insult to the Russians to say that they have fallen too far behind and cant bring all the pieces together to build a 5th Gen stealth aircraft.

The Russians simply have not made the investment to stay ahead in this game.
Nor did they have the money to spend on it.

The article is fair - all the Americans are saying is that there is much more to 5th gen stealth than just airframe.
Avionics, sensors, networking, radar, weapons, engine technology and manufacturing technology all come into play.

They acknowledge that the Russians are still good at aerodynamics, but have fallen far behind even thr Europeans in other areas.
Essentially this is the same thing that the IAF is saying.

Probably only the US and the EU have invested enough money to build a true 5th Gen stealth machine.
And they acknowledge that even they had problems developing it.
So why would the Russians who spend a fraction of what the US does be able to do it ?

The 64K dollar question that I keep asking myself is this - The IAF already knows all this, so why did they invest $6 Billion into this project.

 

[halloweene]

As someone asked, my answer is wait a bit a bit more...

 

[arnabmit]

These 2 old reports completely refute Ajay Shukla's claim (subjective interpretation to an IAF personnel's quote):

Fifth generation fighter crosses milestone - The Hindu

India to customise Russia's FGFA planes - The Hindu

Specially this:

"Co-design offers far greater scope for knowledge sharing compared with license production. In co-design projects all Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) are jointly held by parties involved," Mr. Subrahmanyan added.

 

[Virendra]

he 64K dollar question that I keep asking myself is this - The IAF already knows all this, so why did they invest $6 Billion into this project.

Probably there were seen and unseen strings attached with others ...

 

[arnabmit]

Criticism of FGFA project unfounded - Russian strategic analyst | Russia & India Report
February 1, 2014 Alexander Korablinov, RIR

The reports criticising the Indo-Russian project are aimed at diverting attention from the financial problems that the Indian Air Force will face if a contract to purchase Rafale jets is signed, according to Konstantin Makiyenko.

Cuts in India's defence spending and the cost escalations for buying and setting up licensed production of the French Rafale multirole fighters are the main reasons that certain Indian media outlets have waged campaign against the FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighting Aircraft) Russian-Indian project, Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies told the Red Star military newspaper.

Makiyenko believes that the criticism of the FGFA project in the Business Standard is unfounded and aims to divert attention from the financial problems that the Indian Air Force will face if a contract to purchase Rafale jets is signed. At issue is the purchase of 126 obsolete machines, he told Red Star.

The Russian strategic analyst noted that under the current economic conditions, the French fighters cannot be purchased without cutting spending on other programs. "Going ahead with this project threatens to consume the whole budget for modernizing the Indian Air Force and will leave the country without any fifth-generation technologies," Makiyenko said.

According to him, the accusation that 'Russians have been reluctant to share design information' is completely untrue. "Russia and India are working on the project together, and all information about it is available to Indian engineers and designers," Makiyenko said.

The FGFA project began following a Russian-Indian agreement on cooperation in the development and production of the perspective multirole fighter, signed on October 18, 2007.

The Indian fighter jet will be based on the Russian single-seat Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter, which now has four prototypes flying, but it will be designed to meet about 50 specific requirements by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Rafale price hike
India is expected to foot a much higher bill for the Rafale fighters. When French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation won the deal to supply its Rafale fighter jets, it quoted around $60 million per jet. According to a report on DNA, the cost has gone up to $120 million per jet. "The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion," the paper quoted an Indian Air Force official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee, as saying.

 

[feathers]

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Russia fulfills obligations under 5th gentn fighter aircraft programme with India

February 07, 2:58 UTC+4
"Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation under this programme develops as scheduled", Russian Ambassador to India said



NEW DELHI, February 07, 2:36 /ITAR-TASS/. Russia fulfills all of its obligations under the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme with India, Russian Ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin said at the Defexpo-2014 security systems exhibition on Thursday, February 6.

"We pay no attention to negative publications that appear from time to time and claim that Russia does not fulfill its obligations under the fifth generation fighter aircraft programme. Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation under this programme develops as scheduled, and we have not received any official complaints from the Indian side", he said.

Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, Deputy Director of the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told ITAR-TASS at the exhibition that all such publications had been written to order.

Commenting on one such article in the Indian newspaper Business Standard, Dzirkaln said it was not true. "There is some speculation regarding the development of the Russian-Indian fifth generation fighter aircraft programme, but it's not surprising because the Indian Air Force, as the customer, would like to get the 'hardware', while budget funding has been disbursed for research and development," he said.

"We have no official complaints from India with regard to the fifth generation fighter aircraft. All negotiations take place under the agreements reached earlier," Dzirkaln said.

The newspaper said the Indian Air Force (IAF) had "alleged the Russians would be unable to meet their promises about its performance." On December 24, 2013, in a meeting in New Delhi chaired by Gokul Chandra Pati, the secretary of defence production, top IAF officials argued the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) had "shortfalls"¦ in terms of performance and other technical features."

Business Standard reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying 6 billion U.S. dollars to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

Top Defence Ministry sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft, the newspaper said.

Fifth-generation fighters are qualitatively superior to current "Generation 4.5" fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI. They are designed for stealth, which makes these near-invisible to radar; they "supercruise", that is, fly at supersonic speed without lighting engine afterburners (which some current fighters like the Rafale also do); and they have futuristic avionics and missiles, Business Standard said.

"The Defence Ministry and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) have countered the IAF's objections to the FGFA. Russian officials have clarified that the current prototype's engine, the AL-41F1, is a temporary solution to let the flight-test programme continue. A new engine being developed in Russia will eventually power both the FGFA and PAK-FA," the newspaper said.

It stressed that "Russia has gone ahead with developing a fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi Design Bureau has designed and done 300 test-flights of the T-50, the stealth fighter Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plan to refine into the FGFA in about eight years. The Russian Air Force, which has less ambitious specifications than the IAF, plans to induct into service its own version of the T-50, the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) by 2017-2018."

Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) estimates the Russian-Indian market for fifth generation fighter aircraft at 200 planes and the global market at 400 planes.

The initial version of the fifth generation fighter aircraft being created jointly by India and Russia will be ready for flight testing in 2014, the Times of India said earlier, quoting the Chief of the Air Staff and Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne as saying.

"The two sides are close to signing a key contract expected to be worth over 11 billion U.S. dollars for research and development phase of the project in the near future," the newspaper said.

"The first prototype of the FGFA is scheduled to arrive in India by 2014 after which it will undergo extensive trials at the Ojhar air base (Maharashtra)...we are hopeful that the aircraft would be ready for induction by 2022," Browne told PTI.

The IAF Chief was in Russia in August 2012 to review the progress made in the programme and the prototypes of the aircraft developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau at Zhukovsky there, the newspaper said.

Browne reviewed the performance of the fifth generation fighter aircraft, called Sukhoi T-50.

"Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to us. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. So, India will have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019. HAL will subsequently begin manufacturing the fighters," the newspaper's source said.

Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) First Deputy Director Alexander Fomin said that India and Russia would need at least 6-10 years to build a fifth generation fighter aircraft.

"It takes some time to create a plane. The manufacture of such a sophisticated piece of equipment is a science-consuming process that requires big investments. At least six to ten years will pass before we build a sample of the fifth generation fighter plane and being its serial production," Fomin said.

In the future, Russia and India plan to sell these planes not only on the national markets, but also in third countries. "We will export it in cooperation with Indian partners," the official added.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation will work on the new fighter plane.

According to Indian media reports, the two parties will invest 8-10 billion U.S. dollars in the project. Experts believe that the new plane will exceed Western analogues by the cost-efficiency criterion and will not only enhance the defence capabilities of the Russian and Indian navies, but will also take a worthy place on the world market.

World experience shows that it takes about 3-4 years to test new planes before their mass production can begin. Russia's new plane may as well fit into this schedule, especially since its maiden flight proved its reliability in different regimes.

Fifth generation planes are currently used only by the United States: F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning. However the Russian plane, tentatively called T-50, surpasses the American Raptor.