Russia to build 6 Kilo-class diesel submarines for Vietnam

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by A.V., Apr 28, 2009.

  1. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    MOSCOW, April 27 (RIA Novosti) - Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg will build six Kilo class diesel-electric submarines for delivery to Vietnam, the Russian business daily Kommersant said on Monday.

    The paper quoted company general director Vladimir Aleksandrov as saying that Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport would soon sign a contract with a foreign state, and that Admiralty Shipyards had been chosen to fulfill this contract.

    Sources in Rosoboronexport later confirmed that Russia and Vietnam had been negotiating a $1.8 billion deal on the delivery of six Kilo-class submarines to the Vietnamese navy for about a year.

    Admiralty Shipyards is currently building two Kilo class submarines for Algeria to be delivered in 2009 and 2010.

    Kilo class submarines, nicknamed "Black Holes" for their ability to avoid detection, are considered to be among the quietest diesel-electric submarines in the world.

    The submarine is designed for anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface-ship warfare, and also for general reconnaissance and patrol missions.

    The vessel has a displacement of 2,300 tons, a maximum depth of 350 meters (1,200 feet), a range of 6,000 miles, and a crew of 57. It is equipped with six 533-mm torpedo tubes.

    As of November 2006, 16 vessels were believed to be in active service with the Russian Navy and eight submarines were thought to be in reserve. Another 29 vessels have been exported to China, India, Iran, Poland, Romania and Algeria.



    RIA Novosti - Russia - Russia to build 6 Kilo-class diesel submarines for Vietnam

    good time for india to engage into a long term defence and strategic partnership whit vietnam.
     
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  3. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Hmmm... the Vietnamese can't exactly challenge us in the Indian Ocean Region... so, nothing significant for us to worry about...
     
  4. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    why should the vietnamese challenge india they a good strategic ally and a friendly country but since both vietnam and india will operate these kilo class subs it makes sense to have some kind of an understanding which will help out with technical matters also the most important part is india can have a strategic presence in the vietnamese waters right in the chinese backyard how about that ? this will be indias answer to the string of pearls strategy imagine having some indian navy presence in the singapore and vietnam
     
  5. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Being in close proximity to China, I doubt that he will be in a position to support India, much less give us any bases or anything of that sort...

    I'm sure there is a lot of economic dependence between China and Vietnam and he most certainly will not piss off a giant who is just north of him... because, if he does, I'm sure the Chinese have some totally underhand way of teaching him a lesson and since Vietnam is a developing nation right now, he needs Chinese and Western support and large amounts of investment...

    He will not under any circumstances piss off China because they can and will make his life very miserable...

    So, all our dreams of having bases etc in Vietnam is only wishful thinking...
     
  6. Sailor

    Sailor Regular Member

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    Only yesterday in another post we talked about a list of countries in the world that are virtually bankrupt. Will these six submarines fix that? Perhaps they can take rich people from the West for rides under the ocean to get some money in, like Russia does with it's fighter planes.
     
  7. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Russia to build six submarines for Vietnam

    Russia to build six submarines for Vietnam: report

    Russia to build six submarines for Vietnam: report

    by Staff Writers
    Moscow (AFP) April 27, 2009
    Russia will build six submarines for the Vietnamese navy, the daily Kommersant reported Monday.

    The St Petersburg naval dockyard Admiralteyskye verfi and Vietnam will shortly sign the contract, worth 1.8 billion dollars, the report said, quoting sources close to Russian arms export agency Rosoboronexport.

    It gave no time frame.

    "Initially it was expected that the submarines would be bought by Venezuela, but Rosoboronexport refused to clinch the deal with that country, largely due to a recent meeting between Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and his American counterpart Barack Obama," Kommersant said.

    Chavez, a ferocious foe of the United States under the George W. Bush presidency, showed signs of warming to Obama during the Americas conference earlier this month, telling the new US president: "I want to be your friend."


    Where is our AKULA???
     
  8. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    One would have to take a good long at Russia's sub building industry before investing. Long term support as far as upgrades, spare parts, basic and advance support for specialized equipment and devices and more. Subs are nasty weapons overall and still very deadly to surface shipping but major research is needed on it's maintenance and training needs.

    For the Vietnamese navy to purchase such costly weapon platforms with China fielding so many subs already one may wonder if six would change much in conflict? If under air or even sea attack could Vietnam be able to support them in a major conflict? I would have to review Vietnam's Armed Forces to see if this was the route I would take.

    I wonder what forces China has near Vietnam? I assume these subs would help protect future off shore oil drilling sites and tankers/surface fleet?
     
  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Vietnam has already defeated China in one war with much less.
     
  10. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    Just google for the orbat of vietnam military forces on google a lot of stuff available.

    Depends on what the Russians sell to Vietnam, china has copied the Russian kilos and made a lot of improvements on them, they are done with the Russians, (until the Russians come up with some new tech), Russia needs to sell more submarines , in comparison with European nations they had lost a full decade due to break up of soviet union, they still have good tech.

    The Kilos could be of the level that the Russians sold to the Chinese, possibly some modifications, who knows.

    Vietnam has to start somewhere and this would be a good start, especially due to the Chinese build up.

    The Russian Kilo class submarines can be equipped with land attack versions of the klub cruise missile system so these submarines could prove very flexible in their use.

    For protection of off shore resources they would need a visible surface fleet projecting their presence and they do not have to act alone in the region.
     
  11. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    I would hardy call it a war they did very well don't get me wrong. One of the few modern conflicts where air power was not a factor. I would say China could have applied itself a little more and change the outcome if pressed to.
     
  12. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    600,000 PLA troops tried to Invade Vietnam so it was significant, Chinese air campaign could only do some much when the PLA can't hold any ground. The war may not have been important to anyone but Vietnam gave China a bloody nose that they won't be forgetting any time soon. PLA was succesful in killing 100,000 civilians, it remained a border war to China's embarrassment because they could not advance further than the border. Chinese troops were defeated in 9 days,and the border or water dispute still has not been resolved. Chinese air power was nowhere close to US airpower in Vietnam so i highly doubt China would have been successful where USA wasn't.
     
  13. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    Vietnam to pay via soviet -era dept and oil for the subs

    An expected deal between Vietnam and Russia over the former's procurement of six Kilo-class submarines - which was announced on 27 April by Russia's state news agency - is likely to be founded on debt, oil and a Moscow commitment to help modernise Vietnam's shipbuilding industries, Jane's understands.

    Carl Thayer, a specialist in the Vietnamese military and a professor of politics at the University of New South Wales' Australian Defence Force Academy, added that the deal - reportedly worth USD1.8 billion - had been under negotiation for many years.

    "Vietnam was close to procuring Kilo-class submarines before the Soviet Union broke up," he told Jane's on 28 April. "Then things changed and these submarines have been a priority since. This procurement is not the first big-ticket procurement from Russia but it is certainly the biggest."

    Thayer added, however, that Vietnam's defence budget, which is thought to total around USD3.6 billion, will not cover the costs alone. "Although some funds might be paid, it is likely that Vietnam will pay for the submarines through barter arrangements and especially oil, and also through Soviet-era
    debt,"
    he said.

    Oil and debt underpin Russian submarine sales to Vietnam
     
  14. Shiny Capstar

    Shiny Capstar Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    The Vietnamese Navy does not have much in the way of Submarine experience (I think they had a few mini's at some point), surely 6 brand spanking new subs is a bit of a leap?

    Wouldn't it be wiser to get a (probably second hand) cheaper ones to try and build up some experience in sub operation first before putting so much capital on the line.
     
  15. rock45

    rock45 Founding Member/ RIP our friend

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    Hey LF
    At work today I wrote out this long post but the forum wouldn't take the post and just held up. It may have been my firewall but I lost the post. I'll try and remember what I wrote.

    I agree that Vietnam did a great job I'm not taking anything away from how they performed overall. China was just starting to better themselves military wise and Vietnam had veterans and were fighting for a better cause, always helpful.

    I think for China it was a major awaking of just backwards their armed forces were. China didn't want to take anymore loses for something in the end they really weren't prepared to take over. At that time smarter heads took over and China didn't want to feed, take care of, and controls millions of more people in a torn up region which was the scene of 20+ years of fighting. Looking back I think China made a misstate not pressing the attack. I'll go over that bit in a moment.

    You mention:
    Vietnam doesn't have an air power unless Cold War Russia and China provide so it's not comparing apples to apples, when comparing Vietnam's AF to the United States during the war. China at that time still had hundreds and hundreds of old jets Q-5,J-7, etc and could have worn down Vietnam if the drive to do was was there. Vietnam's war stocks couldn't last long and nobody would have help Vietnam. It was to soon after our war with them to even think about helping and Russia was poor as shit, so Vietnam was on their own.

    It would have been very costly but looking at what they could have grab now Vietnam has one of the world's best natural deep water ports, off shore oil & gas, Chinese shipping, AF could control one of the busies shipping routes. Cambodia would have been next even less people in the world would have cared. Then Thailand, yes the UN and the US would have raised hell but after just fighting years in war with no end I don't think the US would have entered another fighting war in Asia and against China for Thailand. Next one of have been Burma and all their natural gas and it would have reshaped Asia for ever. And China would have been on India's flank almost and still on India's northern border.

    Malaysia and Indonesia would to worry a little more can't think who China helped in some major upraising in one of those country's it may have turn out different with China being more of a force in the region.

    All China would have had to do was leave Singapore alone and in time wear down the others. A little crazy but it may have been one of the best missed military chances of century. Imagine if China had Indonesia and Malaysia's oil & gas? Wow talk about fueling a military build up. Glad it turn out the way it did and but it have been different. Vietnam did punch the big kid in the face and it hurt too.

    China could have made those 100,000 civilians deaths look like chump change. A Vietnam friend and South Korean friend explained how the Chinese look down at other Asians, it might have been nasty. If it would have happened in more modern times I don't think China's government would have been able to hide it from the pubic, how they got there ass kick for nine days.
     
  16. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    wow Rock one of the best detailed debate i have read in a long time nice post.
     
  17. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    The Kilo subs are one of the most lethal submarines that are available around. The Vietnamese made a very good decision by opting for the Kilo class sub. Just one question are these Kilos as advanced as the Amur class subs which are going to be in fray in our second line sub deal?
     
  18. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    I dont think their military will rush things and the deal will involve training for running and maintaining the vessels, i suppose that is why this could turn out to be a much deeper agreement than just the submarines.

    Vietnam could also set up a naval training agreement with India.(As far as Kilo submarine goes).

    With six submarines how many would you say will be operational at a time?
    I think that was the plan, a short intense campaign to declare political objective as soon as possible before going back home, they were not interested in achieving a military victory. The Chinese army paid a huge price in blood in the campaign. Its not the Only time they did this.

    The Chinese economy was not always this strong it takes a lot of resources to be in a war. As soon as you prolong the war you have a lot more trouble.

    Back then the Chinese AF was only responsible to making sure that the army did not have any troubles, sort of like air denial to their enemy, so shifting from that would have been a major shift in doctrine and equipment.
     

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