Russia Takes Iraq Back

Discussion in 'Americas' started by average american, Nov 4, 2012.

  1. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Russia Takes Iraq Back
    by James Dunnigan
    November 2, 2012

    While Russia may be having problems with several of its major weapons customers (China and India), it has landed a new big spender. Iraq recently agreed to buy over $4 billion worth of Russian arms. All details were not released but among the major systems mentioned were 30 Mi-28NE attack helicopters and up to fifty Pantsir-S1 (SA-22) mobile anti-aircraft systems. There has also been mention of MiG-29M2 jet fighters. Although MiG-29s have acquired a reputation for being unreliable and expensive to operate, the new M2 model is supposed to have addressed those problems and is being offered at less than half the price of a comparable (on paper) F-16.
    The Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft system entered service four years ago after more than a decade in development. Pantsir-S1 Development began in the 1990s, but was sporadic for nearly a decade because there was no money. Meanwhile, several Arab nations have been persuaded to order over 200 Pantsir-S1 vehicles.

    Pantsir-S1 is a mobile system, each vehicle carries radar, two 30mm cannon, and twelve Tunguska missiles. The 90 kg (198 pound) missiles have a twenty kilometer range, the radar a 30 kilometer range. The missile can hit targets at up to 8,400 meters (26,000 feet). The 30mm cannon is effective up to 3,200 meters (10,000 feet). The vehicle can vary but the most common one carrying all this weighs 20 tons and has a crew of three. Each Pantsir-S1 vehicle costs about $15 million.

    Five years ago Russia decided to replace its 250 Mi-24 helicopter gunships with 300 of the more recent Mi-28s. The Mi-24 is a twelve ton chopper based on the Mi-8/17 transport. The U.S. did the same thing with the AH-1, developing it from the UH-1 "Huey." But rather than adopt the two seater (one pilot behind the other) approach of the AH-1 and AH-64 Apache, the Mi-24 could still carry troops or cargo in the back and was not as nimble as the AH-1. The 11 ton Mi-28 looks more like the AH-64. That's because, by the end of the 1960s, the Russians realized that the AH-1 design was superior. For several years there was intense completion, to decide which of its two new helicopter gunship designs (the Ka-50 and Mi-28N) to make standard. The Mi-28N is a more capable helicopter, costing about the same as the earlier American AH-64A ($15 million each).

    The Mi-28N "Night Hunter" is an all-weather, night attack version of the 1980s era Mi-28A, with added FLIR (night vision sensor), night fighting optics, and a two man crew. The basic Mi-28 is an 11.6 ton helicopter that can carry 1.6 tons of rockets and missiles. The aircraft also has a 30mm cannon. The cockpit for the two man crew is armored and the helicopter has missile countermeasures (chaff and flares), GPS, head up display, laser designator, and other gadgets. The Mi-28N has a top speed of 300 kilometers an hour and a one way range of 1,100 kilometers. It can carry up to 16 anti-tank missiles (with a range of up to eight kilometers). The helicopter can also carry 80mm rockets, bombs, or fuel for additional range. The Mi-28 has been around in small quantities for two decades but the Mi-28N is the most advanced model, on par with the American AH-64D gunship (which is a little lighter). The first version of the Mi-28N was shown in 1996, although the manufacturer, Mil, wasn't ready to offer for sale until 2004.

    The Russians are also pushing their large line of armored vehicles and artillery systems. Russia has a good reputation with these and the prices are attractive. Another appealing Russian custom is a more comfortable attitude towards bribes, which Iraqi officials are quite fond of. Dealing with American supplies can often be a problem when it comes to helping Iraqi officials skim some of the sales price.
     
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  3. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    The highlighted portion is plain Hypocrisy the West is just as comfortable in giving bribes for arms deals but they just cry a river when caught red handed.

    Brits did it with Saudis for Typhoon deals prostitutes,alcohol infact they gave their Arabs guests a tour of all vices :)
     
  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Shhhh. It's called commission. :)
     
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  5. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    In fairness to Americans, they're not known for unsophisticated bribery.
     
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  6. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    I had a friend once that worked for Ashland Oil, traveled tot he middle east to buy oil, especially Saudi Arabia, he use to tell me about having to refuse to give bribes to buy oil....He said US goverment penalties were just too great to take the risk.
     
  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Don't know about Americans but Europeans are pretty shady. Brits went the NGO route and a billion pounds in "AID" in return for the MRCA deal. And yeah the infamous Bofors from Sweden now part of BaE. I doubt Americans are holy. Business contracts worth billions are too tempting to let go over principles in today's cut throat competition world. Europeans fall for it. I am sure Americans would as well.
     
  8. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Who do you think is worse the people that pay the bribes or the people that accept the bribes?
     
  9. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    In Hindi there is a saying which goes "Taali do haath se bajti hai". It translates to "it takes two hands to clap. There are scenarios where someone gives a bribe to get and order and sometimes the buyer demands a bribe to give an order. There cannot be a which of the two are worse, the giver or taker.

    Sadly, with so much at stake, all options are on the table. It's alleged that years back, an Enron "lady executive" used "all she could" to win favors in India for a power plant. I hope you get what I mean when I say "all she could"
     
  10. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    When it comes to corruption India seems to get screwed a lot if you know what I mean. The USA has a reward system

    http://www.howtoreportfraud.com/overview-of-the-reward-programs

    It’s our top priority among criminal investigations—and for good reason.

    Public corruption poses a fundamental threat to our national security and way of life. It impacts everything from how well our borders are secured and our neighborhoods protected…to verdicts handed down in courts…to the quality of our roads, schools, and other government services. And it takes a significant toll on our pocketbooks, wasting billions in tax dollars every year.

    The FBI is singularly situated to combat this corruption, with the skills and capabilities to run complex undercover operations and surveillance.
    FBI — Public Corruption

    10.04.12 Indianapolis: Six public officials indicted on tax fraud, other charges.
    09.17.12 Newark: Former New Jersey Department of Transportation official admits taking bribes.
    09.13.12 Dallas: Former mayor of Melissa, Texas indicted for role in bribery scheme.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
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  11. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Highly unusual. One's got to wonder what a war-ravaged, piss-poor country like Iraq is buying $4.2 billion in weapons for?

    I think there's a lot more under the surface than meets the eye. And here's what my wild not so educated guess is: Libya and Syria were Russia's largest erstwhile weapons importers in the Middle East and indeed two of the largest in the world behind India and Venezuela. The restiveness of the region ensured that Russia's military sales, present and future, were jeopardized, and that a large portion of the total would be lost. Russia has been a vocal UNSC opponent of Western, particularly U.S, intervention in Syria. Of the two UNSC members opposed to the move: Russia and China, Russia matters most from a non-UNSC perspective because of its entrenched links and large interests in the region. And if somebody was looking for a way to placate Russia's disquiet on the loss of their strategic interests, this would be it. I think this deal is an indicator that the fall of Syria is imminent, and my guess is that we might be seeing it in the next two months. We might even be in for a Christmas day 'liberation' of Syria, folks.

    The U.S. State Dept has gone on record to say that, 'it was not overly concerned by the Russian deal'. And this statement is of particular significance since Iraq has been all but off limits to Russia’s defence industry since the U.S-led war in 2003.

    One indicator that a deal of this magnitude was not expected is that a prominent Russian think tank, CAST, has said this is 'absoloutely sensational' and most military observers, while aware of murmurings in April and May, were not predicting a deal so large. Interestingly, it helps Russia retain its second spot in global weapons exports- this being the third largest foreign weapons purchase ever from the country in the history of post-Soviet Russia- and makes for a sizable retention of its customer base since it lost it in Iraq in 2003 and more recently in Libya. Interestingly, also, $4 billion is about the net cumulative worth of deals that were fully or nearly finalized with Libya, prior to Gaddafi's fall.

    The nature of the purchases is also interesting. I'm thinking, Pantsir, and that harkens back to the days of the Gulf war. Could this be a concrete indicator of Iraq being developed as a staging ground for the war on Iran. Given that the Pantsir is RCG, point defence against enemy cruise missiles or ARM's by Iraqi forces may be the point. As for the helicopters, that may be a useful sweetner: I've heard the Russians were keen on keeping the production lines for the Mi-28 going, which is why they placed an order for 'em themselves in 2006, and this might be an important external order to keep the future of the helo intact. In which case, the US- which was keen on offering the Iraqi forces the AH-1Z Vipers instead, might have made an important compromise.

    My guess is, this is not the end. The Mi-28 can't use the AGM-114 Hellfire missiles that Iraq has been using on other platforms, so future orders for guided munitions may be likely. In addition, if Iraq is to replace its depleted tank cohorts, orders for armoured vehicles might be something the U.S has stored as future sweetners in its kitty, maybe artillery too.

    If all this is possible, the timeline for the deliveries might be a useful indicator of when mobilization for that war might begin. Gauging from previous deliveries, around about 3-4 years is what I'd say it is.
    @prada, what's your take?
     
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  12. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Well, I think it's also because American defense companies have the US government to lobby for them for defense deals (American weapons deal often comes with American diplomatic initiatives). Europeans on the other hand have an uphill battle as they cannot match American diplomatic power. There has certainly been no allegations of bribery in American weapons deal in our country, I have not heard also of similar accusations in Indian deals. Have you?
     
  13. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    One of the reason we dont mind countries buying from Russia is because US weapons go thru them like a hot knife thru warm butter. Russians weapons are made to be used on your own people more then they are an enemy for that they dont need Abrams Tanks and F35s.
     
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  14. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    The Iraqi Govt. will not be using Pantsir AAM's and Mi-28 helos on its own people.

    In the case, it seems the U.S. Govt. doesn't mind because it might work in to their medium to long-term strategic objectives.
     
  15. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    One way of getting Russian cooperation in Afghanistan. In fact America buys directly from Russia (to be given to Afghan forces).
     
  16. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    * added later = except maybe the Kurds, but I don't think you meant that.

    P.S. ^ U.S. weapons will do that job just as well. And it would be more than willing to turn a blind eye, if it suits its interests.
     
  17. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Want to bet?
     
  18. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Sure. How much are you willing to give up?
     
  19. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    has to happen today or tomorrow
    american weapon systems are costly & are more prone to restrictions
    muslim countries are now more cautious while having deals with usa
     
  20. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    The author and the moron highlighting the bribe part have been brainwashed into believing that their officials are worthy of wiping gods crotch.
     
  21. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Iraq cancels $4.2 bln arms deal with Russia over 'corruption concerns' – report — RT

    Wow, didn't expect it to end so soon. :confused:

    Published: 10 November, 2012, 14:41
    Below probably indicates the real reason behind, rather than "suspicions of corruption".
    What's your take?
     
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