Russia Supplies Offensive Weapons to China

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by RAM, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. RAM

    RAM The southern Man Senior Member

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    The dragon gets a bear hug - The Hindu


    Dear friends and Defence enthusiasts ,It would be interesting to know your views on the latest and current developments happening far away in Russian defence deals can have strategic bearing to India.Such is the intensity of chinese diplomacy ,they overturn US and Indian interests by colluding with Russian weapon platforms to counter the Western and Indian Influence.
     
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  3. datguy79

    datguy79 Regular Member

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    Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

    Su-35 is better than the Rafale? That is sure to leave some people red-faced, if true.
     
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  4. Apollyon

    Apollyon Führer Senior Member

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    Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

    The Russian version, export versions are downgraded i suppose.
    Implications of Russian Su-35 sale to PRC will be more for Japan/USA than India and will be most likely be stationed in Eastern China against Japanese F-15J and USAN F-18E/F.
     
  5. Sam2012

    Sam2012 Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

    Come on yaar China getting Su-35 means they have top Flanker in Asia now , & Amur Submarine is one of the best diesel Electric submarine

    So what India is going to do about it is the question , with all budget cuts ?

    If Russia supply downgraded export version then same thing can be applicable to Su-30MKI & Rafale from France if the deal signed at first place

    Project 75I for new submarines is still in Babus mouth :confused:

    We have to accept we are at the weakest phase when it comes to defence , no ammo reserves etc
     
  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

    Good for China.

    They require these platforms.
     
  7. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

    Super SU-30MKI are quite near to PAK-FA compare to those SU-35..

     
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  8. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    but why we don' want to see realty China is moving ahead and the gap is getting large day by day whats our thinktank are doing

    our everysinble things are on paper and they have it .

    Pak, sl, nepal, etc are china influence..

    Don' you think we should go for su 35 not more su 30 mki...
     
  9. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Why would you buy a weapon that China is buying and then expect to fight the same weapon against the Chinese? :confused:
     
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  10. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    why not attest equall options for fight.

    You think we should go for lowerone.

    Su30cant stand against su35
     
  11. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Did you guys notice that J-15 never underwent trials on a skiramp or on the deck but landed straight away on their aircraft Carrier. J-15 is same as SU-33. Who gave them this tech? We Indians are developing N-LCA and we all know the problems we are experiencing and how we are resolving them. But China never has such problems. If you look at the chinese weapon Industry prior to 1995 and after that you will find that they suddenly got a strong momentum in R&D. Who provided that momentum? Russia has been doing it for a long long time and we Indians are fools to have trusted russians. I will be least surprised if we suddenly find that PLAAF AAMs supplied to PAF are actually same as our missiles. Russians have made a great game of selling tech to china developed from Indian JV money and weapons to us at our expense. We must dump these bloody russians asap.
     
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  12. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    I think I cam solve this doubt of yours...

    it was the Russian Government which itself made a similar proposal in the immediate aftermath of the break-up of the U.S.S.R. Saddled with a collapsed economy that fuelled widespread unemployment, the Russians sought to place its vast pool of Scientists & Technologists, that the Soviets-era regime had nurtured & supported during the Cold War, in suitable & relevant positions of employment, least they turn rogue [speculating]. With this in mind, it approached the Government of India, then headed by Prime Minister Mr. PVN Rao.

    The Soviets even agreed to the Scientists being paid part of their salary in Indian Rupees, while the rest, expectedly, the much-needed American Dollars in cash. However, Indian Babus, playing-"seniority-seniority"-scuttled this heaven-sent opportunity, citing rulebooks, pay-grades, Loch Ness monster & what not's.

    In India's defence though, our own economy up until the early 90s was itself tottering & heading nowhere, at least not up North. So the financial viability of the proposal, from India's stand point, could itself have been suspect [speculating].

    However, as seen above, it wasn't India's fiscal situation that was cited as the reason for rejecting the offer, but pay-grade of government employees. Which is why the news is all that more-irksome. Salary structure of government employees & seniority & prestige indicated by salary drawn eventually took precedence over India's National interests - how unfortunate.

    Not surprisingly, they found a very welcoming China who, it appears, greeted them with open arms & coffers.-Russian Scientists-form an integral part of many a critical Chinese weapons development programs. In its drive to posses required technologies, China has-adopted a-multi-pronged-approach, including contracting expertise from overseas, if required. Take, for example,-China's flat-topdevelopment program. Ukraine, which inherited significant portions of erstwhile Soviet Unions vast Naval development infrastructure, has deputed large number of its-Naval Engineers-to be part of the program.

    Our bureacracy should have been hung from the nearest lamp post right then.

    a modest proposal from the Soviets...duly rejected by Indian Babudom - AA Me, IN
     
  13. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    You need to learn what is Super SU-30MKI and What is SU-35..

    In my view with all the specs, Super SU-30MKI is better..

     
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  14. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    You got it all wrong. Selling tech is different from selling manpower. manpower needs to research and develop, when you sell tech, you sell the finished product
     
  15. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Su35 has been offered to us multiple times in the past. And each time it has been rejected by IAF in favour of SU30mki. Rhetoric aside, the two platforms are nearly equivalent in performance, both electronic and kinematic.

    The SU35 has the advantages of lower RCS and better engines, but there is something obviously in favour of the mki that made the IAF prefer it over the 35. The EW and avionics suite of Russians is still suspect, especially since now they have gone for the Russian version of our MKI, a full 10 years after us, and 5 years after the development of the SU35.

    And in any case, the RCS of SU30 and SU35 is not really a factor, given that both are intended to carry munitions on 12 hardpoints. That would make the RCS large enough to be detected easily by other AC, regardless of their clean RCS. Advantage nullified.
     
  16. manishhot

    manishhot Regular Member

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    Its pure business, if you have a problem make your own su 35.
     
  17. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    tell me which plane you will deploy again Chinese su 35 mmrca is till now not signed and they cant fight them , same as su30mki ...

    My only question how will we give them answer ..

    Our ac from china till now didn't come while Chinese are working ....

    I want answer on solid reason...
     
  18. Sam2012

    Sam2012 Tihar Jail Banned

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    You are right we should not go for Su-35 ,we should not act like insane , but go for faster induction for Super-30MKI :thumb:

    Sign MMRCA ASAP & P75I Submarine , Saint antony should not sit on all these deals under his dhothi any more, If Chidambaram talks too much on finance problem he should be slapped & sent to jail because he is also a accused in 2G case

    YOU BABUS EAT UP ALL MONEY & CUT DEFENCE BUDGET:mad:
     
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  19. Sam2012

    Sam2012 Tihar Jail Banned

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    Mate Russia means business , they make money out of defence sales they will sell to any country even Pakis can buy they will seel . But pakis expect softloan which Russia will tell get lost

    They have even fielded S-400 Anti ballistic missile system in Turkey competation , Turkey is a NATO country

    Remember we have also got significant help from russia in tech front eg: Arihant,Brahmos,Prithvi( which was reverse engineered from a soviet SAM) etc

    But what china did is they recruited ex Soviet scientist in Defence R&D after fall of Soviet union that really helped . Problem in India is everything is politically biased we are not able to hold to local talent itself . nearly 10%-20% of scientist in NASA , BOEING, NASA are from India or Indian Origin

    DRDO & Defence PSU sleeps on projects , MOD does not want to give defence business to Indian private industry because they get huge kickbacks from arms dealers . So Problem is within ourselves we have to accept & move on:thumb:
     
  20. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Rafale was never intended to be air superiority AC, even though it is very good in A2A role. The IAF designated the Su30 the air dominance role and the rafale MMRCA for a reason. The PESA radar onboard the SU is superior in detection range and power to the RBE2 AESA of the Rafale, and with addition of AESA to super Su, this gap will only increase. Not to mention the flight characteristics of SU is better than the Rafale.
    Introduction of Rafale will not change the Orbat of the IAF, as far as air dominance is concerned.

    And how do you assume that the SU35 is overwhelmingly superior to the SU30? I have already pointed out the RCS comparison as meaningless for their intended roles. The engine difference is a valid issue though.

    The Super SU upgrade will introduce vastly improved cockpit and most essentially the AESA radar, whose t/r count will exceed the one onboard the Rafale and will at minimum match the Captor on the EF. Add to that indegenious components and Israeli EW suite, and in terms of avionics, it will challenge the SU35 any day.

    And then again you forget the area of encounter. The SU 35 will take off from Tibet. At such altitudes, the AC cannot takeoff with full complement of weapons and fuel, unlike ours which will take off from plains.

    And in any case, the Chinese have yet to receive the SU35, most likely it will start from 2014.
     
  21. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Rafale was never intended to be air superiority AC, even though it is very good in A2A role. The IAF designated the Su30 the air dominance role and the rafale MMRCA for a reason. The PESA radar onboard the SU is superior in detection range and power to the RBE2 AESA of the Rafale, and with addition of AESA to super Su, this gap will only increase. Not to mention the flight characteristics of SU is better than the Rafale.
    Introduction of Rafale will not change the Orbat of the IAF, as far as air dominance is concerned.

    And how do you assume that the SU35 is overwhelmingly superior to the SU30? I have already pointed out the RCS comparison as meaningless for their intended roles. The engine difference is a valid issue though.

    The Super SU upgrade will introduce vastly improved cockpit and most essentially the AESA radar, whose t/r count will exceed the one onboard the Rafale and will at minimum match the Captor on the EF. Add to that indegenious components and Israeli EW suite, and in terms of avionics, it will challenge the SU35 any day.

    And then again you forget the area of encounter. The SU 35 will take off from Tibet. At such altitudes, the AC cannot takeoff with full complement of weapons and fuel, unlike ours which will take off from plains.

    And in any case, the Chinese have yet to receive the SU35, most likely it will start from 2014.
     

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