Russia Offers Nuclear Aircraft Carrier

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by pmaitra, Jun 17, 2016.

  1. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    It is unclear whether an RFP was at all issued, or whether this was reported in any Indian news channel or site.
    ______________________________________


    Russian 'Storm' top candidate to be India's new aircraft carrier - report

    Source: https://www.rt.com/news/334142-india-aircraf-carrier-tender/

    [​IMG]
    Model of the aircraft carrier project 23000E at the «Army 2015» exhibition. © Artem Tkachenko / Wikipedia
     
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  3. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    I think this BS news already discussed here more than three to six months ago. This was first translated and reported by India Russia report website

    Its clear we are moved with US for Next gen aircraft carrier Program and we already made many progress on that, the Carrier technology blah blah some org is good example for that
     
  4. Kshatriya87

    Kshatriya87 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes, I remember discussing this in some other thread at least a couple of months back.
     
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  5. kstriya

    kstriya Regular Member

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    Get the best technology for the Indian aircraft carrier, like buy the Russian design use American catapult technology with some of our indigenous content. We can have FGFA, AMCA, NLCA, predator drones and E2 on board. It will be a unstoppable aircraft carrier with barak 8 and Bhramos NG. It will be amalgamation of best technologies from the world over. This is only possible in India under make in India initiative..
     
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  6. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    Though personally I don't like big ships, but you cannot rule out this proposal either. Except for the congenital keeda for western stuff there is no reason why the Russian proposal is not serious.

    The Indian AC of like size with US reactor and EMALS will cost exactly the same as the Gerald Ford Class. 10 billion plus, in todays dollar, without considering the aircraft complement + operations cost + fleet rationalization.

    Even Make In India will fail to bring that cost down. Because the only thing that can be made in India is the hull, which is the cheapest part of the whole ship.

    People forget but the Indian Navy's inhouse design team has real experience of only the float category. Propulsion and fight are outside their scope, at this scale. So merely making a big hull is neither difficult for them (nor desirable - unfortunately for some of you).

    So even if the US proposal is considered as favorable it must have the backing of DRDO and BARC etc. who are ultimately going to be the custodians of the fight and propulsion component. These people will however find it interesting only if (like CANDU) they can learn to make real stuff. Something I doubt will ever happen with US involved in any given project, much less a super-carrier. Canada and US are different, there is no hope for a CANDU styled learning curve ever repeating in the Indian friendship with USA. EMALS is just the side show. Good only for keeping fanboys happy. Real learning is in miniaturization of the biggest possible naval reactor. And reactors, of any size or shape, are something that is not at all difficult for Russians.

    Indian Navy will have its own real needs. For example the IAF-FGFA is going to be real. And Indian Navy not buying it in the navalized version seems difficult to believe. There is nothing comparable, available at all, anywhere in the world. That alone is a big big incentive for Indian Navy.

    For the politicians there is still another concern. The persistent problem of chinese capability to mate a DF-21D with one of them many subs. Which basically upends all such super carrier proposals around. Its too damn risky. And we have 3 times bigger maritime responsibilities then our competition. China has a 3 times bigger land border to take care of but a smaller sea. Our case is exactly the opposite with 3 times a bigger sea to take care of. Something that has been noticed by DRDO people when they announced their own anti-ship ballistic missile ambitions. Smartly turned out officers cannot in the same breath, convince the politicos of both the ASW advancements and of difficulties of finding a super-carrier. Even a Mulayam Singh level of intellect will see the inherent contradictions. It would be a real fun to watch the Admiral claim - we can hunt their prowling submarines but they cannot track our super-carriers.

    Also if history is considered, the Indian Navy itself had argued for a 36 aircraft carrier as the lower end of the optimally sized carriers. Which basically means a 65000 ton carrier with room to spare. FYI, a carrier is expected to increase in weight by 1000 ton for every aircraft it is designed to carry (context is the nuke carriers). The hypothetical 65000 ton carrier can easily support = 20 FGFA + 20 NLCA Mk-2 or NAMCA + 3/4 heavy helos + 3/4 lighter helos + 2 of the COD/Hawkeye.

    Frankly I doubt if we are ever going to go the super carrier route. Navy will find it interesting to have the option of 2 of the 65K ton carriers instead of option to have 1 of the 100K ton.
     
  7. Screambowl

    Screambowl Senior Member Senior Member

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    :pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:

    that was post of the day !!!
    @pmaitra
     
  8. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    True or not, we shall see in due course of time.

    Does India need a super-carrier like the one mentioned in the OP article?

    What are the advantages? What are the costs?
     
  9. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    As per reports, the IN & MoD are now at a fork where they have to decide whether they want to make the Nuclear CATOBAR carrier a priority, or pursue the new-generation SSNs as a priority. Naturally, it's very feasible that they put the IAC-2 on the bank burner for the time being and dedicate resources for the SSN project - for which 6 boats have been envisaged so far.

    The choice for selecting an SSN design is now between a new "4++ generation" concept from Rubin Design Bureau of Russia, and ofcourse the Barracuda/N-Scorpene concepts from DCNS France.

    Keeping possibilities of follow-on orders, one can expect the total SSN requirement of the IN to be between 12 and 18 boats eventually.
     
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  10. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    You mean like a proverbial camel
    Neck like giraffe
    Tail like xyx
    Mouth like and
    Hump like efg

    End result
     
  11. kstriya

    kstriya Regular Member

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    My suggestion
    My suggestion is get the Russian design in the float category, under propulsion use the American tech and under the fight category use the American tech EMALS to get Airborne some if the heavy aircraft like E2 and also naval FGFA ir a similar fighter. It could be the best of both the world and a great made in India product.
     
  12. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    Russia Offers India Nuclear Aircraft Carrier
    [​IMG]
    Artem Tkachenko
    Krylov State Research Center (KSRC), a Russian shipbuilding research and development institute, is designing the carrier known as Shtorm or Project 23000E.

     
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  13. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    Tonnage wonnage jane do. Pahle batao kitne ka hai? Aur kitna mileage deti hai?
     
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  14. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    Tonnage is more important.
    Bigger is the carrier, bigger is the deck.
    And IAF needs a ship with big aircraft fleet.
     
  15. rohit b3

    rohit b3 Regular Member

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    ""Russia has already overhauled and modernized a Kiev-class carrier-cruiser, renamed INS Vikramaditya, for the Indian Navy from 2004-2013 in which they "gained valuable insights into carrier-building techniques through that process," Mehta said.""

    And India has designed and built a far more advanced Carrier from scratch, but oh well...
    These kinda articles make me Lol :rofl:
     
  16. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Russia offers nuclear aircraft carrier to India

    The building of the Project 23000 'Storm' aircraft carrier is supposed to take about 10-11 years.

    Russia has offered India the joint construction of a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, according to a source in the Indian Navy.

    “A Russian military delegation offered India the Project 23000E 'Storm' (E stands for export-oriented, Eksportny) heavy aircraft carrier several weeks ago,” the Indian Navy source said. “The surface combatant is known to have a full displacement of about 100,000 tons and a price of about $5.7 billion. The proposed carrier has been jointly developed by the Krylov State Research Center (Russian acronym: KGNC) and the Nevskoye Design Bureau (Russian acronym: NPKB, a subsidiary of the United Shipbuilding Corporation). The building of the Project 23000 'Storm' aircraft carrier is supposed to take about 10-11 years.”

    He added that India`s Ministry of Defence (MoD) would consider the Russian offer. “The MoD is planning to review it in strict accordance with the standard procedure. The final decision will be announced in late 2016,” the source added.

    In May 2015, the Indian Navy allocated 300 million rupees ($4.5 million) to start design works on a new nuclear-powered aircraft carrier intended for the service. The ship is supposed to be named 'Vishal'.

    India is working closely with the United States to develop an aircraft carrier. In 2015, both countries established the US-India Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation (JWGACTC) to address the issue. The third meeting of the group is supposed to take place between August 9 and August 12 in Washington DC.
    https://www.facebook.com/indianmilitaryphotos/photos?ref=page_internal
     
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  17. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    Good find @WolfPack86

    Same reported here too:
    http://www.defencenews.in/article/A...-Jointly-constructed-by-India-and-Russia-6885
    Originating from this link, reporting yesterday:
    https://rbth.com/news/2016/07/20/russia-offers-nuclear-aircraft-carrier-to-india_613219


    For perspective:

    INS Vikrant Cost will be around USD 3.66 billion
    http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/indias-modi-approves-aircraft-carrier-funding/
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rore-for-INS-Vikrant/articleshow/38034399.cms
    While the INS Vikramaditya cost us USD 2.33 billion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
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  18. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes, VIkky cost USD 2.33 and that is quite reasonable. People were saying that costs are escalating but how can you get an A?C at less than 2.33 bn USD?

    Other good option is that if US retire some of her A/C, we should buy it and than make it renovate to use it for couple of decades.
     
  19. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    A Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier Jointly constructed by India & Russia
     
  20. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    [​IMG]
    Russia has offered its nuclear aircraft carrier, dubbed "Storm," to India for purchase
    by Robert Farley
    The chances are slim. Here’s why.

    Early this year, a Russian group proposed to build a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier for India. The notional carrier would rival the supercarriers of the U.S. Navy in size and capability. Why did the Russians make such an offer, and what might the Indians make of the deal?
    History of the Carrier
    Russian interest in a supercarrier began during the Soviet period. Lacking the extensive worldwide bases that the United States Navy enjoyed, the Soviets could potentially benefit even more than the Americans from nuclear power, which reduced the logistical overhead for a carrier battle group.
    Events intervened, and the Soviet carrier fleet never materialized. The four Kievs rotted (until one became INS Vikramaditya), while the Russians commissioned Admiral Kuznetsov and allocated her sister to Ukraine, which sold the hulk to China. The big (eighty-thousand-ton) nuclear carriers never left the slip, although the lead ship of the class (Ulyanovsk) reached 20 percent of completion before scrapping. Reportedly, China intends to construct two of its new carriers to a modified Ulyanovsk design.

    The Shtorm class represents a new step in Russian carrier design. At roughly one hundred thousand tons, the Shtorms would compare roughly with the U.S. Nimitz- and Ford-class ships. It will carry advanced sensor and defense systems, eschewing (at least at this point) the anti-surface weaponry that has characterized previous Russian carriers. The ships would presumably be built at Sevmash shipyards, the only remaining Russian shipyard capable of managing such ships. Even then, Sevmash would require considerable expansion and modification to handle the giant carriers.
    However, numerous problems remain. Russian shipbuilders have not constructed an aircraft carrier since the 1990s, and have never built a ship the size of the Shtorm. The Russian economy has gone deeply south in the last few years, forcing the Kremlin to carefully prioritize its defense commitments. Moreover, as many American commentators have noted, the supercarrier as a platform has multiple vulnerabilities.
    History of the Relationship
    And this makes a sale to India attractive. Put simply, Russia cannot afford to devote scarce resources to the construction of a nuclear aircraft carrier, unless it has a partner with sufficient financial wherewithal to make the project worth it. China’s shipbuilding industry has progressed to the point that it no longer requires Russia’s assistance. Only India both wants carriers and can afford them.
    India has jumped into carrier aviation with both feet. To replace the ancient INS Viraat, India acquired INS Vikramaditya (the former Admiral Gorshkov) from Russia in 2013. India is currently building INS Vikrant, a forty-thousand-ton carrier similar to Vikramaditya in size and capability. India’s next carrier, provisionally named INS Vishal, may enter service in the middle of next decade. It appears that the Russians want the Shtorm project to fill in forVishal.
    Russia also desperately wants to hold on to its defense relationship with India,especially as New Delhi appears to drift towards the United States. Building an aircraft carrier for India could take a decade or more, and would demand an extensive, long-term relationship between the navies of the two countries. If Russia also supplied the carrier aircraft (some have mooted the idea of a carrier-capable version of the PAK FA eventually flying off the Shtorms), it would play the central role in the long-term development of India’s naval aviation program, presumably putting the United States on the outside looking in.
    In a sense, the project mirrors that of the deal that the Russians made with the French to construct two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships. In that case, France sought to offset the cost of developing the Mistral platform by building an export market. Russia offered itself as the primary customer, in a deal that would involve technology transfer and the construction of two Mistrals in Russian yards. As everyone knows, however, the deal went sour; France withheld the Mistrals after Russia invaded and conquered Crimea (one of the amphibious assault ships was named RFS Sevastopol, a move that was on the nose even by the standards of the Russians). A Russian deal with India would similarly try to share costs and risk across both countries, although hopefully with a more positive eventual outcome
    .
    Bad Idea
    It’s hard to make this idea make sense for India. India is already doing the difficult work, with INS Vikrant, of developing the capacity to build huge warships. Building Vishal in India would no doubt be difficult and expensive, but it would preserve the hard won human and physical infrastructure necessary to build large carriers. Vishal will likely not displace one hundred thousand tons, but India probably doesn’t need a carrier of that size.
    Even to the extent India would want a patron, why would it choose Russia, a state with extremely limited experience with modern carrier operations? The deal to acquire INS Vikramaditya went well over budget, and came in considerably behind schedule. There is very little reason to believe that the Russians would do better with an even more complicated project. The United States has offered to collaborate with India on a variety of advanced carrier technologies, an offer that would likely end if India threatened to share those technologies with Russia. More broadly, the Russian defense industry has become an increasingly unreliable partner for India, as the ongoing saga of the PAK FA has demonstrated. The idea of turning the PAK FA into a naval fighter is certainly. . . interesting, and not in a good way.
    Notwithstanding the long-term defense relationship between Russia and India, and the ongoing insistence of many within the Indian diplomatic and defense communities for maintaining a balancing act between Russia and America, there is little real prospect of Russia building an Indian carrier. If India decides to spend that much money, it will want to keep the investment domestic, rather than export capital to an unreliable partner. Like so many previous plans, the Shtorm class will likely remain on the drawing board, unless Russia’s economic fortunes change dramatically.
    http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/08/coming-soon-russian-built-super.html
     
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  21. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Manohar Parrikar to visit US next week for pushing key defence ties
    Defence minister Manohar Parrikar will visit the US next week with key military alliance agendas. According to officials at the Ministry of Defence (MoD), India and the US are highly likely to sign the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA), on which the two nations agreed in principle during the US defence secretary Ashton Carter's visit to New Delhi in April. LEMOA, that will allow sharing of military logistics by using each other's Army, Air Force and Naval bases for supplies, repair and rest was the highlight of Carter's visit and signalled a crucial shift in India's stand on defence ties with the US.

    The US has been maintaining that cooperation under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) can grow if India signs what US calls three foundational agreements – LSA (of which LEMOA is a modified form), and the other two being the Communication and Information Security Memorandum Agreement (CISMOA) and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement (BECA).

    Even as CISMOA and BECA too will be followed up during the visit, officials said another important agenda during Parrikar's visit will be the Indian Navy's requirements of the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) for aircraft carriers as well as the long-range Predator B Guardian surveillance unmanned aircraft or drone. Navy has put an initial requirement of 22 Predators.

    Parrikar's visit also coincides with India's lookout for a technologically new set of fighter jets for its air force and two US companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin pitching hard for it even as the government to government deal on the French Rafale jets is still stuck in negotiations.

    India is also on a look out for technology cooperation for its second indigenous aircraft carrier, the 65,000 tonnes INS Vishal. Even as India's first indigenous aircraft, INS Vikrant is in advanced stage of construction, Navy is in the process of finalising the design for INS Vishal, which will be India's largest battleship. India has been eyeing the advanced US aircraft carrier technology for this project.


    Eyeing advance technology

    India is also on a look out for technology cooperation for its second indigenous aircraft carrier, the 65,000 tonnes INS Vishal. Even as India's first indigenous aircraft, INS Vikrant is in advanced stage of construction, Navy is in the process of finalising the design for INS Vishal, which will be India's largest battleship. India has been eyeing the advanced US aircraft carrier technology for this project.

    http://www.defencenews.in/article/M...S-next-week-for-pushing-key-defence-ties-7635
     
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