Russia - India’s military buys lack logic

Discussion in 'Foreign Relations' started by LETHALFORCE, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Russia rants at India’s military buys


    Bangalore, Feb. 8: The Russian bear raged here today.

    Viktor Komardin, the head of the Russian delegation to India’s military airshow Aero India, alleged that Delhi has bought aircraft, submarines and weapons from western countries at inflated prices “without military logic”.

    Komardin is also the deputy chief of the Russian state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport.

    He questioned the financial logic of the Indian government to procure weapons systems from countries that were not as longstanding partners as Russia despite getting no transfer of technology. “Ask your minister of finance. May be he has so much money to spare and India has no social problems,” he responded, barely able to conceal the sarcasm.

    Komardin called a group of journalists to a small room in the Russian pavilion here and said his ire was directed against the Indian media that was not accurately reflecting Russia’s “rootedness” in the Indian armed forces. But he said the decisions to buy the Boeing-made C-17 Globemaster and Lockheed Martin-made C-130J Hercules (both US firms) transport aircraft were big mistakes because they were not suited to Indian military needs.

    Such decisions are made by the government of India and not by the Indian media.

    “It is not fair. Arms sales in military technology projects are now all politics. Billions of dollars are paid for procurements without transfer of technology. It is improper, it is unfair,” Komardin said. “I accept politics but fair should be fair. Russia is a strategic partner of India. We want to be dealt with as partners,” he added.

    The angry remarks came even as a team of the Russian Knights, an aerobatic team from Moscow, landed here this afternoon after a three-day delay that a member of his delegation confirmed was caused “by delay in internal security clearance”. The issue was resolved only after Russian ambassador Alexander M. Kadakin requested national security adviser Shiv Shankar Menon to intervene.

    A spokesperson for the Russian Knights team said after landing in Bangalore: “We were held up in Delhi for legal issues raised by the government of India and we could come here only because of diplomatic intervention.” The Knights had a similar problem in the UK in December and that was put down to incomplete paperwork by the Russians.

    Komardin said India was also buying weapons and equipment from companies and countries that were also selling to Pakistan. The French, he said, had sold Agusta submarines to Pakistan and were selling Scorpene submarines to India. Lockheed Martin had sold Hercules aircraft to both Pakistan and India. Boeing, too, was selling to both Pakistan and India.

    “But we do not do it, India does not want us to do it and we are a friend as a friend can be. We do not turn our backs to India.”

    Komardin put out figures that are not officially borne out. He alleged India had bought 10 C-17 Globemaster aircraft for $10 billion though the long-haul strategic airlifters did not configure into the Indian military mindset.

    “These aircraft are used for trans-Atlantic and transpacific requirements by the US military. What are they? Just big cargo planes. And you overlook the Il-76 that you (India) have been using for 20 years!” he said.

    The C-17 contracted by India in 2009 through the Pentagon’s foreign military sales programme cost half the figure of $10 billion that Komardin quoted. The aircraft are bigger than the IL-76 procured from Russia. A C-17 can carry 75 tonnes and an IL-76, loads of 50 tonnes each.

    Even as Komardin was railing against the shift in Indian military procurement policies, Boeing was taking another team of Indian journalists in a C-17 on a sortie over Bangalore’s skies to give them a feel of the aircraft.

    The C-130J Hercules that the Indian Air Force has procured, he said, cannot accommodate the Russian-supplied Smerch multi-barelled rocket launchers. This would tell on the Indian armed forces’ operational abilities.

    Komardin said Russia also thinks the choice of the Boeing-made Chinook helicopter for the IAF’s heavy-lift needs was wrong.

    “What is the Chinook compared to (the Russian) Mi-26 (that was also in the competition)? It is a baby. The Mi-26 can lift the Chinook by the neck!” he said.

    This is true. About three years ago, a Chinook helicopter of the US forces that went down in Afghanistan was salvaged by a chartered MI-26. Photographs of the MI-26 with the Chinook underslung have since been widely publicised.

    The IAF has selected the Chinook for negotiations but the twin-rotor helicopter has not yet been contracted.

    Komardin said Russia has $7-billion worth of arms transfer projects with India going currently, compared to the contracts that were signed with other countries. “I am pained that despite this, I find the Russian role in building India’s defence industry diminished,” he said.

    Next year, it would be the 50th anniversary since India first signed a licensed production agreement with (the former) Soviet Russia for the MiG 21 FL fighter aircraft. Russia now has more than two dozen licence production agreements going with India. Among the projects are land systems involving tanks and armoured personnel carriers for the army, aircraft such as the Sukhoi 30 MKi for the air force and the Gorshkov carrier for the navy.

    Asked about erratic supplies of spares for Russian-origin equipment and delays in deliveries, Komardin fumed that was also the case with other suppliers. He said the French had delayed the delivery of Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy by three years, as the delivery of the Goshkov carrier has been delayed. “But there is talk in India of imposing penalties on us and not on the French,” he rued.

    He said the equipment that India was procuring from Russia’s competitors would not stand the test in harsh conditions in the subcontinent.

    “Russian armament is robust for warfighting, not effete. If we will sell you a chair, we will sell you a chair that lasts, not decorate it with foam and leather that will not last,” he said.

    Komardin said that unlike its competitors, Russia did not want to publicise its defence deals with India “because we do not believe in disclosing Indian national secrets”.
     
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  3. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Yea, every thing is logical when Russian sells to anyone.
     
  4. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Komardin said that unlike its competitors, Russia did not want to publicise its defence deals with India “because we do not believe in disclosing Indian national secrets

    A veiled threat?
     
  5. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Someone's backside is burning! They are just upset that the Indians now are using the more sophisticated life-cycle cost analysis instead of looking purely at unit costs which inherently favours the Russian equipment. The fact is over the years the Indians have been screwed over again and again by Russian equipment with the lack of support and poor maintainability of the Russian equipment. India in the past had no choice but to go for the Russian equipment and Russia enjoyed a monoply in the Indian defence market. Now India has more choice Russia is losing again and again on OPEN tenders.


    It seems the Russians don't like open and fair tendering but prefer dodgy back-door closed deals.


    This really is pathetic since when do the suppliers dictate the requirements and needs of the user?


    Russia is going to have to up its game if it wants to start scoring more wins in the Indian defence market from now on.
     
  6. spikey360

    spikey360 Crusader Senior Member

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    Well said Komardin.
     
  7. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I disagree with Komardin on one point - Russia has sold the Mil-17 helicopters to Pakistan. On the other hand, I completely agree that the Chinook deal was bogus and completely illogical. Frankly, it did not make any sense.
     
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  8. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Yes it is threat & typical Russian seller attitude. But Komardin is small man to make that call. Rest assured India is going to further diversify its defense purchases & surely doesn't need Russia to lesson on how we spend money. They are just pissed because MRCA loss and upcoming submarine tender also going to France.

    Rather he should try to explain what 'military logic' Russia has in buying Mistrals from France ??

    This guy indeed has big mouth.

    --

    :fkidding: Our Armed forces return money allocated by FM back to treasury every year. On the top of that Govt is trimming the allocation.

    --

    Like Russia is not selling jet engines to China, which end up in Pakistan! This guy is high on crude vodka! :pound:

    So he assumes that Indian forces will never cross Atlantic or travel past Pacific ?? And while he is at it, he should look at bill he has charged for IL76s maintenance. And he comfortably forgets following practical reality compared to C17 Vs IL76 proposal??

    "The C-17 contracted by India in 2009 through the Pentagon’s foreign military sales programme cost half the figure of $10 billion that Komardin quoted. The aircraft are bigger than the IL-76 procured from Russia. A C-17 can carry 75 tonnes and an IL-76, loads of 50 tonnes each."

    --

    Oh please, everyone knows delay in Scorpene production has a lot to do with MDL. On the other hand, we have been just sending bags full of money from years for Gorky & yet to receive it (that too without few critical modules)


    From pure technical pov, he can't disclose any information as confidentiality agreements are signed. If he chooses to defy them then it will only worsen relations. You can't foster relationship out of blackmail.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  9. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    As regards the heavy lift heli, the dismal experience of the IAF wrt the MI26 is partly the reason. These mammoths were in the maintainance yards far more often and for far longer time than on operational duty. Only a handful of them were available at the best of times,fustrating the loistics officers of IAF and IA alike. Add to that the disruptive supply of spares, and you have a money burning white elephant.
    Also another factor that may be behind the IAF decision is that we are keen on improving our ability to conduct hot heliborne insertions, even behind enemy territory should the need arise. The chinooks are a far more vesatile platform than the MI26, they can lift the required load, and much more. Note that this is not a competiion to see who can lift the most, but who can lift the required amount, and other added servicesThe initial succesful assaults in Afg were conduted by heliborne SF insertions, where sometimes a whole battalion with supporting loistics would be airlifted right on top of the talis.
     
  10. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    The points you made are important, but we have already debated that here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...mil-mi-26t2-halo-vs-boeing-ch47f-chinook.html

    The Chinook does not carry the required load, and yes, it was indeed a competition to see who can lift the most.
     
  11. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    With due respect Sir, We have to accept that no one likes their darling hanging out with others. Part jealousy, part fear. I know its a crude way of stating the current relationship. But you have to excuse the Russian top brass, if they feel a little saddened by the recent turn of events. Especially the older generation who witnessed the golden age of Russian-Indian cooperation. Most of them still remember the time when the Russian navy was sent in to support the beleagured Indira Gandhi when the US 7th fleet took a trip to the Bay of bengal. Than there was the time we conducted the nuke tests in 74 & 98 when the whole world save the Russians and the French turned against
    We should, and are being pragmatic about the current relationship with the Russians, as also everyone else. They may no longer be the same as the USSR, and money might play a bigger role now, but to disregard their sentiments would be akin to bangladeshis abusing us for libeating them.
     
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  12. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Russia has also sold mid air refuellers to pakistan using Ukraine as a
    Middle man. If Russians are arming two enemies what do we gain
    Strategically from buying from them?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
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  13. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I am less sentimental & believe that geopolitical posturing is done strictly on practical reality. And at the moment Russian Arms lobby is not exactly in bargaining position. Having said that Komardin is not the man who conveys official Russian position, Kremlin would be far more careful before issuing statements like this motherland loving gentleman did out of jealousy or loss of business.
     
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  14. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    The C-17 also I was not keen about that but then Boeing delivers faster than Antonov or Ilyushin.
    For the Chinook I believe it will be more in use as tactical chopper to helidrop tactical units say like Ghatak or Garud and the MI-26 is more a like workhorse.
     
  15. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    No, just confirmation of some long range tupalovs that we bought just before the c 17 deal.
     
  16. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    This Russian guy has conveniently left out Russia's selling spree of cutting edge military equipment to China.
     
  17. WMD

    WMD Regular Member

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    oh, come on. why the whining? we still r buying/leasing MKI, Mi-17, ur junk carrier, ur nuk sub which doesn't work, god knows what else for the army, and in future we r going for the FGFA. u still r our primary arms suplier. so stop whining and try to fulfill ur delayed obligations.
     
  18. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

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    The anger of a TRUE LONG LASTING FRIEND AND A PARTNER IS NOT GOOD FOR INDIA.............

    I think this is a wake up call.
     
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  19. Vishwarupa

    Vishwarupa Senior Member Senior Member

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    Even US does this & doing this for long
     
  20. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    But USA does not try to hide it.
     
  21. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    This cold war view does not seem to be shared by Russia anymore?
     

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