Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Kunal Biswas, Jul 10, 2012.
Just doing business.. huh ! ?
What newspaper is it?
Russians are doing us a favour, forcing us to move towards developing indigenous technologies. If we wish to be recognized as big power, we need to become self-reliant in defence production. Indians have a habit of taking the beaten path, and only thinking out-of-box when we are left with no other option.
From a long term perspective, a country like India has to have indigenous equipment. We cannot afford to run to our suppliers and be open to arm twisting in case of a war, even a limited theatre war.
Cant say, Extracted from chindits
Trying to juice the most out before their edge is blunted into obsoletion. Thats all I could think of
Why would they take such drastic measures otherwise?
The tank weapons may be true. MoD was probably being stingy when they placed those price estimates. Labour costs have increased in recent times in Russia btw.
India is buying 25000 Invars, 66000 BM-42s and 10000 Konkurs-M for a little over $1 Billion.
Government on overdrive to tide over tanksâ€™ ammunition crunch - Times Of India
At the same time, India is willing to order 8300 Spike missiles at a little over $1 Billion. Funny that!
Rafael in $1b Indian anti-tank missile deal - Globes
Gorky, we know they fvked up, they apologized, offered to sell Gorky to the Russian Navy instead. However IN continued with the deal, ordered more gizmos to be installed and still finished the project with no profit to Sevmash.
MKI's 100million price tag is basically wrong. Russian officials quoted the same price tag for the recent Malaysian MRCA deal. $50Million per MKM as it was before. The MKI contract only saw a revision of 5% adjust to inflation clause up from the 2.55% before. No surprise there considering inflation in India is even higher. The 2010 contract may have included something that we do not yet know of.
It was wrong on the author's part to club tank purchases, which is most probably true, with Gorky and MKI, which is not true.
People, don't get taken in on the headline at face value.
hats off ! atlast suman sharma has made the secret open!!!! Dont worry....all other countries might have also following the Russian route...Bravo india...Bravo....
Israeli weapons are the most expensive.
we have to do the same thing as china did
make our owns as much we can while we depend on other they will take whatever money they want
Russian knows that they can hike price ten times and still India will buy from them. Our system is becoming so corrupt that to get some quick bucks, there will be lot of idiots to sell even their mother land.
P2: just like you said, do NOT take things at face value.
Even though NO profit to Sevmash, Russia actually got a free/funded experience and re-build of its capability/capacity for AC manufacturing. (All previous USSR carriers are manufactured by shipyards in today's Eukraine). Not to mention that Mig-29k, the real countable carrier-based next-generation fighter for Russia, again, can only be developed and done with India's money. IMO, this is 10 times value compared to (even if there is) "loss" in the deal, to Russia.
Someday I will try to list out all those military industries "saved" only possible because of India - from Russia ship yards, to PAKFA, to Dassault (at least in Rafale case). Just wonder Indian friends aware of it -- without your tax payers' money, actually all those will be dead!! Just dead!! India actually supposed to call much better card in this game. IMO
ASAP, my friend, please go for it.
This is the effect of every deal with every country that we have. Israel has the vast experience of integrating Soviet/Russian aircraft with their avionics for India, MKI and Phalcons come to mind.
With an Indian deal ALA will be able to order more Rafales. New markets will open up for Dassault because of an India deal while existing markets get stronger.
With the Apaches, Javelins, C-130J, C-17s and P-8Is, the US will be able to share a logistics and intelligence setup with India apart from kick starting a defence relationship.
How many Flankers do you think were made in Post Soviet Russia before and after India signed a deal for MKI?
However since we are talking about money in this thread, all these other aspects take a back seat.
The scale of our deals are so large that whole careers can be made lasting over many years. So, everybody benefits.
All these deals benefit India as much as the other nations. Would you buy a cellphone for the company's benefit or your own?
Sevmash's advantage of having this experience would only qualify if Russia places actual AC orders at the shipyard. Russians currently do not have plans of deploying new ACs for another 10 years. So, do you think the experience will stay?
Clearly so !
but for that to happen the goi has gotta do a major overhaul in their attitude towards the whole business of manufacturing ... it has to bring in a " manufacturing culture and frame of mind " which until now is notably absent in india , unlike china which started as soon as they got their new govt in 1949
- they realised if we make it on our own itâ€™s gonna be less expensive - i guess they learnt that from the japanese -
so today the manufacturing culture is absent in india and even tiny south korea with it's Samsung products far outshines giant india - i mean the samsung galaxy series is a world-wide hit
...and in comparison , WHERE IS OUR AKASH TABLET ? - still undergoing trials ?
we cant even turn out a bulky tablet while the south koreans are turning out galaxy series ?? something is terribly wrong
My last post in this thread - really do NOT have that luxury although I enjoy stopping by.
P2: I am NOT denying about mutual benefit concept in weapon deal. I am simply addressing on your using "No Profit" to help defending Russia's move.
Actually, since you raise the concept, exactly that will lead us to the key point: while India (or at least people like you) is willing to look at at "mutual benefit" perspective, it's Russia that does NOT look at this way. Instead, Russia has been behaving like the last one leaving this "India military market party" (could be very true for them, indeed): "party is over, grab every cake and beer you can!!" Other than that, I don't know how to justify this 10-times price raising.
@Casper: I may have to bite my tongue as I don't find time, sorry. Perhaps a quick one here: simply try to comprehend all those numbers of Rafale and PAKFA sold or to-be-sold, you will see how India (money) is critical to both. Below is a list by some projection for potential PAKFA buyers & quantity (based on current Su-27/Su-30 users, of course, but impossible to replace at 1-1). The higher in list is of more likelihood. I don't expect everyone agree with me:
Vietnam: ~24 (currently 12+24 Su-27/30)
Malaysia: ~12 (currently 18 Su-30MKM + 18 Mig-29N, but F35 could be strong competitor as it also has F-18D)
Indonesia: ~10 (currently 16 Su-27SK/30MKK/MK2, but already announced to join Korea's plan for G5 fighter)
Algeria: ~24 (currently 44 Su-30MKK)
Kazakhstan: ~24 (currently 38 Su-27)
Venezuela: ~18 (currently 30 Su-30MK2)
Not sure, but unlikely: Syria, Iran, Burma (currently 32 Mig-29B/SE/UB), Libia (several Mig-29, almost impossible now), some former Soviet states but also almost impossible
Above total is 112. Again, just compare it to India's plan, and you shall get the idea
And till we come up with our own stuff, we will move to buy from west.
Well may be the army will look at Arjun again since the T90 ammo is costing so much more.
While overall, prices of everything has increased world wide, I think Russia has now upped the price because it knows india is ready to pay a lot more. Rafale was a case example. It will loose out in the long run as the western tech I'd far better. I think india may move to Israel and France even more.
Russian lobby is directly challenged by US and French and they are losing ground on Indian market, More over French and US technology is sophisticated and superior in many ways, I agree with Charly here they are behaving odd, Some people in Russia are too scared of losing India which is not going to happen in next 50 years..
Regarding Arjun its deginer is dead and the tank main partner 'IMI' is ban just few months before, Tank ammo deign is from late 70s but Arjun can fire Western rounds with modification or licensed produce ammo from west deign for rifled gun..
Bottom line, we may go for new western tanks or Ammo..
The sorry saga of Indian arms production.
Hell yeah get the leopards, Abrams, merkavas, challengers!
It is not 10 times, but it is higher than before, say 3-4 times. But we don't know if it is 3-4 times up from the 2001 price, which is normal, or regular prices from 2010 jacked up by 3-4 times as a business tactic.
Also, the French are worse at JVs. Why else did the Maitri SAM project fall apart? Other European countries had issues with the French too. We are more comfortable dealing with the Russians looking at the number of big ticket projects that we have with them.
I don't think Malaysia has been offered F-35s. Rafale, EF, Gripen and SH are other option apart from MKMs.
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