Russia Formalises Su-35 Offer To India

jakojako777

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I think spending money on buying a squadron of SU-35s is not worth it. There's no substantial upgrade in the SU-35BM as compared to the SU-30MKI, the main difference being the improved Irbis-E phased array radar and the AL41F1A powerplant, and satellite navigation systems, all of which can be integrated into the MKI with some modifications.
Be cause testing ground for Pak Fa, SU-35BM will use Pak Fa tech therefore AESA radar (once ready)also (as you have already said) S-117 (supercruse!) engine .
It will be built with use of composites where and when possible and also RAM coating used on Pak Fa to obtain max of stealth possible

But I agree with you , most of it can be arranged to be included in upgrade for SU-30MKI :Laie_22:
 

qilaotou

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Maybe Vlad was too shy to tell you that MKI has no chance facing Su-35 on one-to-one basis. According to internet information Su-35 is better in most parameters, better radar, higher thrust to weight ratio, better TVC, lower RCS, and better instantaneous/sustained turn rates. It means Su-35 has advantages in both BVR and WVR encounters. I think it is a serious challenger to JSF 35. The only pity is that it comes out too late.
 

Quickgun Murugan

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Maybe Vlad was too shy to tell you that MKI has no chance facing Su-35 on one-to-one basis. According to internet information Su-35 is better in most parameters, better radar, higher thrust to weight ratio, better TVC, lower RCS, and better instantaneous/sustained turn rates. It means Su-35 has advantages in both BVR and WVR encounters. I think it is a serious challenger to JSF 35. The only pity is that it comes out too late.
Thanks for quoting it right. I agree with everything except for your JSF 35 part. Fighter plane just keeps on advancing just like electronic goods. Just because there is a new iphone with better features in the market, you wont dislike your relatively older iphone. Likewise, India's Su 30 MKI satisfies her deterrence demands though Su-35 is a better product. It simply wont make any sense to buy and maintain 2 squadrons of Su 35 just for the heck of it. MMRCA should be IAF's primary focus as of now, as there are some aging planes which seriously need to be grounded.
 

jakojako777

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Maybe Vlad was too shy to tell you that MKI has no chance facing Su-35 on one-to-one basis. According to internet information Su-35 is better in most parameters, better radar, higher thrust to weight ratio, better TVC, lower RCS, and better instantaneous/sustained turn rates. It means Su-35 has advantages in both BVR and WVR encounters. I think it is a serious challenger to JSF 35. The only pity is that it comes out too late.


Why to late???! Russian aviation will start to receive them (48#) in 2011 already!
Before majority (if not all) F-35.
Also - it is still possible that india negotiates AESA radar and S-117 engine and many other stuff for SU-30MKI upgrades :viannen_10:
 

blade

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Its very very sad to see that some friends out here still keep comparing su 30mki su 35 mrca and talk about their mutual replacement and so and so. I thought this is a trademark of pakistani defence forums where they even question why dose india need mrca when su 30mki already flying hahaha and even they say why dose india need su 30mki or mrca if they hv confidence in LCA hahaha and all that bull shit. Its high time that we try to learn a little more about these issues and stop such comparisons in our forums.

1. su 30 mki is a completely air dominence fighter with some A2G capabilities fit into it artifically for which it wasnt originally built.

2. su 35 have significantly greater A2A capability compared to su 30mki.

3. As i have already mention in mrca related thread that the formal disclosure about the selection of SH in MRCA is only a matter of time with an unprecendented amount of ToT
russia is comepletely down and out of the game.su 35 .. if bought by india will be a stop gap measure taken by india to maintain some credibility of its A2G capabilities.su 35 will not be bought to suppliment su 30mki by any means.This is urgently required as during the 26/11 the airforce backed off from a limited stick option due to its lack of A2G capabilities where as it has possibly the best air dominance force in asia right now.Only 40 of its relatively new mig 27 could be modernized to adress the latest requirments

5. mrca is being choosen based on just 2 aspects i) A2G capability ii) EW suits
A2A capabilities will be just a supplimentary need and here SH scored very high against the peers due to its aesa radar.The aesa capabilities of the SH will be utilized in A2A engagements mostly in indirect mode where the data procured by the AESA radar will be distributed among the air dominence fighter such as su 30mki or mig 29 (upgraded) using data link. so the commonality factor is being rigorously discuss alonged along with the ToT of SH.Only direct involvement of SH can be expected in A2A engagement and thats in perfect and long BVR environment.
BVR situation.
 

Vladimir79

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Maybe Vlad was too shy to tell you that MKI has no chance facing Su-35 on one-to-one basis. According to internet information Su-35 is better in most parameters, better radar, higher thrust to weight ratio, better TVC, lower RCS, and better instantaneous/sustained turn rates. It means Su-35 has advantages in both BVR and WVR encounters.
I do believe I said "Su-35BM is MKI on steriods."

I think it is a serious challenger to JSF 35. The only pity is that it comes out too late.
Too late for what? To compete with F-35?? Su-35BM will be on the export market long before F-35. JSF is delayed for at least two years, and has several years of project consortium obligations to fill before any non-partner nation would get it. Australia is looking at 2018 before they would get theirs, if they finally decide to buy it. India will have its first batch of PAK FGFA before then. There will be no export aerocraft that can compete with Su-35BM for the next nine years.
 

qilaotou

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Thanks for quoting it right. I agree with everything except for your JSF 35 part. Fighter plane just keeps on advancing just like electronic goods. Just because there is a new iphone with better features in the market, you wont dislike your relatively older iphone. Likewise, India's Su 30 MKI satisfies her deterrence demands though Su-35 is a better product. It simply wont make any sense to buy and maintain 2 squadrons of Su 35 just for the heck of it. MMRCA should be IAF's primary focus as of now, as there are some aging planes which seriously need to be grounded.
Your consideration is logical and understandable if we are talking about overall strength and deterrence of IAF.


Why to late???! Russian aviation will start to receive them (48#) in 2011 already!
Before majority (if not all) F-35.
Also - it is still possible that india negotiates AESA radar and S-117 engine and many other stuff for SU-30MKI upgrades
After Russia discusses and finalizes the production details for India the earliest time India would recieve its 50 planes may be in 2015. According to their plan India is expecting to get PAK FA by 2017. So it's not much or too late for a stop gap. If it would have come out 1 or 2 year earlier it might be easier to convince IAF.

As long as JSF-35 is concerned it's superior mostly in A2G mission. Except for its stealthness Su-35BM is surely a serious rival in weapons, agility and performance in A2A encounters.
 

Quickgun Murugan

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Its very very sad to see that some friends out here still keep comparing su 30mki su 35 mrca and talk about their mutual replacement and so and so. I thought this is a trademark of pakistani defence forums where they even question why dose india need mrca when su 30mki already flying hahaha and even they say why dose india need su 30mki or mrca if they hv confidence in LCA hahaha and all that bull shit. Its high time that we try to learn a little more about these issues and stop such comparisons in our forums.

1. su 30 mki is a completely air dominence fighter with some A2G capabilities fit into it artifically for which it wasnt originally built.

2. su 35 have significantly greater A2A capability compared to su 30mki.

3. As i have already mention in mrca related thread that the formal disclosure about the selection of SH in MRCA is only a matter of time with an unprecendented amount of ToT
russia is comepletely down and out of the game.su 35 .. if bought by india will be a stop gap measure taken by india to maintain some credibility of its A2G capabilities.su 35 will not be bought to suppliment su 30mki by any means.This is urgently required as during the 26/11 the airforce backed off from a limited stick option due to its lack of A2G capabilities where as it has possibly the best air dominance force in asia right now.Only 40 of its relatively new mig 27 could be modernized to adress the latest requirments

5. mrca is being choosen based on just 2 aspects i) A2G capability ii) EW suits
A2A capabilities will be just a supplimentary need and here SH scored very high against the peers due to its aesa radar.The aesa capabilities of the SH will be utilized in A2A engagements mostly in indirect mode where the data procured by the AESA radar will be distributed among the air dominence fighter such as su 30mki or mig 29 (upgraded) using data link. so the commonality factor is being rigorously discuss alonged along with the ToT of SH.Only direct involvement of SH can be expected in A2A engagement and thats in perfect and long BVR environment.
BVR situation.

Seriously, I just love to believe your SH claims. But, you don't back anything up with sources.
 

ZOOM

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Maybe Vlad was too shy to tell you that MKI has no chance facing Su-35 on one-to-one basis. According to internet information Su-35 is better in most parameters, better radar, higher thrust to weight ratio, better TVC, lower RCS, and better instantaneous/sustained turn rates. It means Su-35 has advantages in both BVR and WVR encounters. I think it is a serious challenger to JSF 35. The only pity is that it comes out too late.
It would be highly appreciated if you compare MKI and Su-35 by bringing in Technical specification and doing some logical comparison. Because, just getting away saying "internet Information" does hold to much water. And may I ask you, since when Su-35 has become a challanger to JSF, as both this aircraft are in totally different class, may be it must be your Internet information.
 

ppgj

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1. su 30 mki is a completely air dominence fighter with some A2G capabilities fit into it artifically for which it wasnt originally built.
it is for air dominance but is good in ground attack too.
The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

2. su 35 have significantly greater A2A capability compared to su 30mki.
but su 35 traded of maneurability with mki by losing canards.

3. As i have already mention in mrca related thread that the formal disclosure about the selection of SH in MRCA is only a matter of time with an unprecendented amount of ToT
you keep saying this but complete evaluation of even fa-18 e/f has not happened yet. infact some have not even gone thro' 1st phase.

russia is comepletely down and out of the game.
i don't know what to say to this!!:crazy:

su 35 .. if bought by india will be a stop gap measure taken by india to maintain some credibility of its A2G capabilities.su 35 will not be bought to suppliment su 30mki by any means.

point does not arise. india is going for more mki's.

This is urgently required as during the 26/11 the airforce backed off from a limited stick option due to its lack of A2G capabilities where as it has possibly the best air dominance force in asia right now.Only 40 of its relatively new mig 27 could be modernized to adress the latest requirments
jags too are getting upgraded.

5. mrca is being choosen based on just 2 aspects i) A2G capability ii) EW suits
what????:s MRCA stands for multi role combat aircraft!!

A2A capabilities will be just a supplimentary need and here SH scored very high against the peers due to its aesa radar.
all contenders have not even been evaluated!! how come you come to that conclusion??

The aesa capabilities of the SH will be utilized in A2A engagements mostly in indirect mode where the data procured by the AESA radar will be distributed among the air dominence fighter such as su 30mki or mig 29 (upgraded) using data link.
even su-30mki acts as mini- awacs or a command post. check the link i pasted above.

so the commonality factor is being rigorously discuss alonged along with the ToT of SH.Only direct involvement of SH can be expected in A2A engagement and thats in perfect and long BVR environment.
BVR situation.
now only if you can provide some authentic proof....
 

sandeepdg

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Maybe Vlad was too shy to tell you that MKI has no chance facing Su-35 on one-to-one basis. According to internet information Su-35 is better in most parameters, better radar, higher thrust to weight ratio, better TVC, lower RCS, and better instantaneous/sustained turn rates. It means Su-35 has advantages in both BVR and WVR encounters. I think it is a serious challenger to JSF 35. The only pity is that it comes out too late.
As i said before, most of what is offered in the SU-35BM can be incorporated into the MKI, except the RCS factor. And how did u arrive at the conclusion that SU-35BM is a challenger to the JSF ?? The F-35 is a 5th genr. aricraft whereas the SU-35 is a 4.5 genr. one.
 

jakojako777

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As i said before, most of what is offered in the SU-35BM can be incorporated into the MKI, except the RCS factor. And how did u arrive at the conclusion that SU-35BM is a challenger to the JSF ?? The F-35 is a 5th genr. aricraft whereas the SU-35 is a 4.5 genr. one.
still there is difference between "can be incorporated" and "will be incorporated" be cause as you know, all doesn't belong to standard SU-30MK upgrade, like S-117engine and AESAradar...

SU-35BM is often compared to F-35 be cause of its superior A2A quality (comparing to F-35) and be cause it will come out before PAK FGFA as the best answer to F-35 so people speculate....
 

sandeepdg

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still there is difference between "can be incorporated" and "will be incorporated" be cause as you know, all doesn't belong to standard SU-30MK upgrade, like S-117engine and AESAradar...

SU-35BM is often compared to F-35 be cause of its superior A2A quality (comparing to F-35) and be cause it will come out before PAK FGFA as the best answer to F-35 so people speculate....
JJ, SU-35 BM incorporates the Irbis-E radar which is an PESA radar and not an AESA one. Also, just because the SU 35 can carry more A2A weapons than the F-35 doesn't make it a better aircraft. There's a huge technological difference between the two aircraft, but having said that there's still 7-8 years before the FGFA comes along and 5-6 years before the F-35 joins combat fleets, during which time, the SU35 BM will truly be the most superior multirole 4.5 genr. aircraft among all others in the world.
 

blade

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Seriously, I just love to believe your SH claims. But, you don't back anything up with sources.
I am extreamly sorry for not being able to provide any link or my source behind this information but just wait for few month for the formal declairation.
 

blade

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it is for air dominance but is good in ground attack too.
The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena


but su 35 traded of maneurability with mki by losing canards.


you keep saying this but complete evaluation of even fa-18 e/f has not happened yet. infact some have not even gone thro' 1st phase.


i don't know what to say to this!!:crazy:


point does not arise. india is going for more mki's.


jags too are getting upgraded.


what????:s MRCA stands for multi role combat aircraft!!


all contenders have not even been evaluated!! how come you come to that conclusion??


even su-30mki acts as mini- awacs or a command post. check the link i pasted above.


now only if you can provide some authentic proof....
I. I dont know whats given in the vayu sena link but one thing i am very much sure that there is a huge difference in the A2G capabilities of su 30mki & su 35. The indian MKI version advocated for A2A roles whereas A2G was choosen for chinesee MKK version.
II. " su 35 has significantly greater a2a capability compared to su 30mki" --- which is a completely wrong information which i typed being tired and sleepy.I beg your perdon for that. I wanted to say " su 35 has significantly greater A2G capability compared to su 30mki. The actual fact is su 35 has an optimum mix of both A2A & A2G out of which india choose A2A and further enhanced it whereas china just did the opposite.
III. Only thing that i can say at present is currently indian defence procurement is being made on a fast track basis again on the otherside taking care of any future doldrum that may hv any political repurcation. As the MRCA competition has been around for a number of years so a direct procurement will not be possible in a transparent manner but about SH u will have to wait for a few more month and only after the formal declairation we will talk.
IV. Russia is well awar of this fact that they will not get a share of MRCA and
su 35 is offered as a stop gap measure.
V. yes point dose arise, even after india gets extra su 30mki they cannot replace su 35 for A2G operations. A squadron of Su 35 can serve indian purpuse of limited operation on pakistan soil. An incapability which forced indian airforce to back off during 25/11.
VI. Even upgraded jags are not enough as they will require escort jets making the mission more vulnarable to threats.
VII. With complete responsibility and information i can tell you that it will be good for us if we can forget about those early formal naming which at present hardly has any bearing on the ground reality.
IX. Yes that is existing with su 30mki but you clearly missed my point sir, by data sharing with su 30mki we can only get PESA data where as i meant to say that SH will be used in typical A2A BVR combat by providing it AESA data with other jets.
X. I am just giving you the info. For a confirmation you will have to wait till the formal declairation. Till then i am wrong.
 

jakojako777

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JJ, SU-35 BM incorporates the Irbis-E radar which is an PESA radar and not an AESA one. Also, just because the SU 35 can carry more A2A weapons than the F-35 doesn't make it a better aircraft. There's a huge technological difference between the two aircraft, but having said that there's still 7-8 years before the FGFA comes along and 5-6 years before the F-35 joins combat fleets, during which time, the SU35 BM will truly be the most superior multirole 4.5 genr. aircraft among all others in the world.
Thanks for pointing out important detail:thank_you2:
I know that Irbis-E is on the SU-35BM (for the moment) but I also know that Sukhoi will test (and incorporate) all new tech stuff for T-50 on SU-35MB be cause it is testing platform for PAK FGFA
On top of it , it just doesn't make sense that MIG-35( when it comes out ) has AESA radar and SU-35BM doesn't!
So maybe first batch (ordered by Russian Aviation) of SU-35BM will be with Irbis but later models (when radar ready)should be with (PAK-FGFA's) AESA radar.
 

sandeepdg

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Thanks for pointing out important detail:thank_you2:
I know that Irbis-E is on the SU-35BM (for the moment) but I also know that Sukhoi will test (and incorporate) all new tech stuff for T-50 on SU-35MB be cause it is testing platform for PAK FGFA
On top of it , it just doesn't make sense that MIG-35( when it comes out ) has AESA radar and SU-35BM doesn't!
So maybe first batch (ordered by Russian Aviation) of SU-35BM will be with Irbis but later models (when radar ready)should be with (PAK-FGFA's) AESA radar.
JJ, Mig and Sukhoi are rivals after all. Mig has put its money on the MIG-35 because it gives it a edge in the Indian MMRCA program where it is a competitor. Sukhoi is more preoccupied with the PAK-FA project and has put all its money on it and hence it is using the SU-35 BM as a technology demonstrator testbed for the PAK-FA program, so it doesn't have an AESA radar as yet. The PAK-FA is slated to have an all new AESA radar, and this might be incorporated on the SU-35. Anyway, as i had said, the IAF is already considering a major upgrade for the MKI, including an AESA radar, modified engine and avionics.

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs?
 

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