Russia during the early 20th century

jouni

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NAZI Germany helped arm Finland in the so called "Continuation War" from 1041-1944 (the second Russo-Finnish War if you will after the 1939-1940 Winter War where the Goliath USSR badly lost to David Finland).
Huh...luckily the war was not 903 years, only 3years. I know that we can hold our own but that would maybe have been a little too much.
 

pmaitra

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Another interesting fact associated with early 20th century Russia: Tsar Nicolas II, King George V and Kaiser Wilhelm II were actually first cousins:



The Family Relationships that Couldn't Stop World War I | Brookings Institution

But in the end nationalism was thicker than blood. Their close family relations did not stop WW1 from happening.
You are correct.

Also, Tsarina Alexandra was the granddaughter of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom.

Also, Karl Marx belonged to the Rothschild Family (by marriage of ancestors), that financed numerous wars and conflicts. Read about Nathan Mayer Rothschild and follow the various links therefrom.
 

jouni

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Sure, but Jouni said 1940. If what he meant was Germany started selling Finland arms in late 1940, OK. But, Hitler had allowed Stalin to occupy; tiny parts of eastern Poland, the Baltic states and Finland. From my understanding his claim that Germany saved Finland in 1940 is either; very wrong or extremely misleading.
Molotov met Hitler 1940 summer, after the winter war. He wanted free hands to start the war again and invade Finland, but Hitler refused. Some historians also believe that Germany told Finland during winter war that "make peace now and you will get it all back with interest later". ( personally I do not believe it ). This is from official transcripts:

A DIRECT CLASH BETWEEN HITLER AND MOLOTOV OVER FINLAND

When the Führer replied that he could only repeat that there must be no war with Finland, because such a conflict might have far-reaching repercussions, Molotov stated that a new factor had been introduced into the discussion by this position, which was not expressed in the treaty of last year.

The Führer replied that during the Russo-Finnish War, despite the danger that in connection with it Allied bases might be established in Scandinavia, Germany had meticulously kept her obligations toward Russia and had always advised Finland to give in.

In this connection the Reich Foreign Minister pointed out that Germany had even gone so far as to deny to the Finnish President the use of a German cable for a radio address to America.

Then the Führer went on to explain that just as Russia at the time had pointed out that a partition of Poland might lead to a strain on German-Russian relations, he now declared with the same frankness that a war in Finland would represent such a strain on German-Russian relations, and he asked the Russians to show exactly the same understanding in this instance as he had shown a year ago in the issue of Poland. Considering the genius of Russian diplomacy, ways and means could certainly be found to avoid such a war.

Molotov replied that he could not understand the German fear that a war might break out in the Baltic. Last year, when the international situation was worse for Germany than now, Germany had not raised this issue. Quite apart from the fact that Germany had occupied Denmark. Norway, Holland, and Belgium, she had completely defeated France and even believed that she had already conquered England. He (Molotov) did not see where under those circumstances the danger of war in the Baltic Sea should come from. He would have to request that Germany take the same stand as last year. If she did that unconditionally, there would certainly be no complications in connection with the Finnish issue. However, if she made reservations, a new situation would arise which would then have to be discussed.

Hitler Molotov Meeting Berlin 1940
 
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prohumanity

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Re: Knowing Germany

Thank you, and I have learnt something today. Lenin was also allegedly funded by the Brits, but I am not sure how far that is true. Lenin lived in Britain for a long time. London can be called the incubation chamber for the Bolshevik Revolution.
Not only Vladimir Lenin....even the father of communist doctrine, Carl Marx lived in London and wrote "Das Capital" ..the communist bible...while living in London.
 

asianobserve

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You are correct.

Also, Tsarina Alexandra was the granddaughter of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom.

Also, Karl Marx belonged to the Rothschild Family (by marriage of ancestors), that financed numerous wars and conflicts. Read about Nathan Mayer Rothschild and follow the various links therefrom.
Some of the greatest ironies in history. The closest of the three royals were King George V and Tsar Nicloas II. They were best friends when they were growing up and managed to be particularly close even after the ascended to their thrones. The odd man in the three was the Kaiser Wilhelm II. He did not get along well with his relatives although he was very close to his grandmother Queen Victoria. It is said that the bad relations between the Kaiser and his cousins contributed greatly to the War.

Queen Victoria had the enviable position of influencing three of the most powerful powers in Europe. I think you can say that that was truly the time when the British Empire was at its zenith of power. The three powers were at an uneasy peace (British Empire+Russian Empire versus German Empire) while the Queen was alive. A decade after her death the Russian Empire with the British Empire were at war with the German Empire.

Another curious note from these cousins is the alleged failure to King George V to bring his cousin Tsar Nicolas II to Britain after the October Revolution. Had he did it the Russian monarchy could have survived. But I guess in the end it is still "one for one's self." It is said that the fear of King George V that the British population will copy the revolution in Russia once he bring Tsar Nicloas II to any part of the British Empire outweighed his closeness to his cousin.

That information about Marx's Rothschild family background is interesting. I wonder if he implemented labor friendly policies in their Manchester Mill when he was assigned there?
 
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asianobserve

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Huh...luckily the war was not 903 years, only 3years. I know that we can hold our own but that would maybe have been a little too much.

Hahaha! Sorry typo. But the bravery and warfighting skills of your ancestors in WW2 saved your country from being absorbed by Stain into the USSR.
 

pmaitra

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@asianobserve, can you please give some links about Manchester Mill and the labour friendly policies? I need to read more about it.
 
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jouni

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Hahaha! Sorry typo. But the bravery and warfighting skills of your ancestors in WW2 saved your country from being absorbed by Stain into the USSR.
Yes, and they are not too bad singers also

[video=youtube_share;arKxCiTZoyQ]http://youtu.be/arKxCiTZoyQ[/video]
 

asianobserve

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@pmaitra

Sorry I got confused, it was Engels not Marx whose family had a mill in Manchester.
 
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jouni

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Brief and subjective, but honest summary of Russo-Finn relationship
The so called "Ryssä-tsuhna" love/hate relation 1812-2014.

1812-1899

Happy times, Finland was autonomic grand duchy of Russian Empire. Finland had own parliament, currency, post etc... Finnish industry developed creating product and services for Russian market Fazer.fi - Fazer, Gummerus Publishers, Stora Enso. Finland had a population of appr. 3 million with only 8000 Russians in the country. Actually that time has a lot of similarities with current EU Finland. Typical image from that period:



1900-1917

Russification starts. Russia wants to bring Russian systems in legistlation, post, currency, language etc. Finnish people start to look for ways to keep their own systems and look for help in Germany and Sweden.General governor Bobrikof is murdered by a nationalistic finn Eugen Schaumann. 1917 Revolution in Russia and Finland is able to get independence from new russian socialistic government. Typical image from that period:



1918-1944

Turmoil and war.1918 Two moths after independence Red Guards gain power in Helsinki and industrialized south of Finland. Legal governmet has to leave for exile in northern finland. Finland has no army, in the country are 10 000 Russain troops, but they are warweary from WWI and not enthusiastic to fight for the reds. Two years earlier nationalistic finns have send 1400 young men to get military training in Germany Jäger Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . They are now called back to Finland to form the backbone of the army. "Whites" start to re-occupy lost south from the reds. Finnish government asks for help from Germany. Germany decides to send division to help. Baltic Sea Division - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. They land in the souther coast and together with whites liberate the country and reds are defeated. Finland remains democratic country and Soviet system is adapted to Russia.

1918 to 1939 relative peace, but Russia is closed, no tourism or trade relations. Mistrust between countries.


1939 After Molotov-ribbentrop pact Stalin start war against Finland object to make Finland one more Soviet republic. War ends with peace agreement with Russia annexing 10% of Finlands lands. Summer 1940 Stalin wants to start the war again to get the rest, but Hitler refuses. 1941 Finland starts separate war against russia in order to get the lands back. 1944 another peace, Finland losts permanently 10% of its country. Country in not occupied. In WWII were only three capitals in Europe that were not occupied: Moscow, London and Helsinki. Typical image from that period:



1945-1991

Friendship, co-operation and helping. Finland has close cultural and economic ties with Russia. Finland benefits from bilateral trade tredemendously. Finland prosperes and nordic model proves to be succesful. From one of the poorest country in Europe in 1900 Finland becomes one of the richest by 1991. Finns study and travel in Soviet Union. Meantime Finland also deepens relationships with the west. Helsinki is a city of spies. Military co-operation is outside of the field of co-operation. No common exercises, military equipment in Finland is bought from both west and east. Typical image from that period:



1991-2007

Soviet Union collapses, Finland abolishes neutrality and friendship co-operation agreement. Finland joins EU, Relationship with Russia is good. A lot of help is given to Russia in turbulent years of the nineties. Finnish tourism to Russia collapses. Image of Russia is that of a poor country with huge environmental and social problems. Finland does not apply NATO membership, because old friendship with Russia is still intact and no need is seen for such. Typical image from that period:

http://photo.qip.ru/photo/fishki_net/3538970/76847768.jpg

2008-2013

Russia is getting richer, fast train between helsinki and St.Petersburg is created, tourism flourishes. People talk about Helsinki-St.Petersburg axel becoming one of the centers of Europe competing with Berlin and Paris. Affluent Russians visit Finland. Finns cheer when Russia win Ice-hockey championship. All are happy and remember the good times of early 1800´s which were the last good times. Typical image of that period:



2014-

Ukraine crisis start. Everybody remembers old bad times and cannot believe what is happening. Is Russia really wanting to turn agains Europe? Start a war in Europe? Occupy Crimea? Russian anti press, anti gay, anti NGO laws are viewed with disbelief. Is Putin the new Stalin? Mistrust starts to develop, NATO support in Finland rises. People joke "ryssä on ryssä vaikka voissa paistaisi" Russian is a Russian even if you fry him in pan with a lot of butter... How the saga continues, nobody knows... Typical image from that period:

 
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pmaitra

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The Moscow Sortirovochnaya rail yard is the oldest on the Moscow rail network. The yard, which marked its centenary in 2009, became the site of the first communist "subbotnik" in 1919 when three locomotives were repaired here. "Subbotniks" [a derivative of the Russian word for "Saturday"], a tradition initiated by the Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin, involved volunteers doing cleaning and repair work on weekends. Photo: A locomotive crew of the Moscow Sortirovochnaya rail yard.
Source: The history of Russia's railroads: from Tsarist Russia to the 21st century | Photo galleries | RIA Novosti

The source gives a lot of information about Russian Railways, but most of it is not relevant.

The picture here is also not from the era we are discussing, but the caption is relevant.

The concept of Sabbath was initiated into Soviet Railways by Lenin.

@Razor, et al..
 
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asianobserve

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There is a chapter in Russian early 20th century that's is not often talked about, the Russo-Japanese War where Imperial Russia lost badly. Imperial Japan was emboldened to aspire for complete imperial dominion of Asia while in Russia, its defeat in that War planted the seeds of the revolution against the monarchy.

Russo-Japanese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The technology, tactics and scale of the human lives lost in the Russo-Japanese gave the World (which was not paying much attention at the time) a glimpse into how WW1 will be fought. The Japanese would lose a lot of men in frontally attacking Russian forces (Russia won a lot of land battles against Japan). The Japanese military officials were even surprised of the Russian surrender of Port Arthur.

Siege of Port Arthur: Verdun in Manchuria | The Diplomat

Interestingly, despite the closeness of Tsar Nicolas II to the British monarchy the British worked closely with Japan in intelligence ops against Russia.
 
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pmaitra

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@asianobserve, we were taught in school about Japan defeating Russia and this was presented as a humiliation of a European power in the hands of a much smaller Asian power.
 
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pmaitra

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Lenin lived in Germany, Britain, and Switzerland, while Trotsky grew up in the vicinity of cosmopolitan port city of Odessa (born in Kherson), and eventually escaped to Britain. It is interesting to note that the nerve centre of the RSDLP, moved from Minsk, to London as well.

Who was funding all these pan European travails?

@Razor?
 
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Razor

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@asianobserve, we were taught in school about Japan defeating Russia and this was presented as a humiliation of a European power in the hands of a much smaller Asian power.
Interesting thing about this one: Jacob Schiff (hard core anti-Russian jew) of New York financed this war.
According to some estimates in 1904 he gave Japan (by 1904 standards) an unbelievable outrageous loan of $ 200 million. Next year Japan won.
So not exactly "a humiliation of a European power in the hands of a much smaller Asian power", I guess.

Lenin lived in Germany, Britain, and Switzerland, while Trotsky grew up in the vicinity of cosmopolitan port city of Odessa (born in Kherson), and eventually escaped to Britain. It is interesting to note that the nerve centre of the RSDLP, moved from Minsk, to London as well.

Who was funding all these pan European travails?

@Razor?
It seems to me that the funding mostly came from the German govt. and powerful men in the West (like Jacob Schiff who also financed guys like Trotski).
For the last century and before, the West has been obsessed with dismantling Russia. From the Bolsheviks (which backfired thanks to Stalin) to Euromaidan. The idea is the same to weaken Russian control over the Heartland and loosen control over the vast resources of Russia, natural and human.
 
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Razor

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Stop Saying Lenin Statues Are a Symbol of Russia. He Hated Russia, and Tortured Her People

We are witnessing a wave of massive Lenin demolitions in Ukraine. The latest example was in Kharkov, where the largest Lenin statue in Ukraine was toppled by radicals and members of the fascist Right Sector and neo-Nazi Azov battalion.

For many Ukrainian radicals Lenin is not only a symbol of totalitarianism, it is also a symbol of the country's "ugly Soviet/Russian past". Since November 2013, hundreds of Lenin statues have been destroyed throughout Ukraine.

Thus, the destruction of Lenin monuments is interpreted as an anti-Russian protest.

In their opinion Lenin symbolises Russian domination and influence over Ukraine.
It's hard to imagine a bigger perversion of the historical truth. There is no greater victim of Lenin than Russia itself.

How can Lenin be viewed as an enemy of Ukraine? After the Marxist revolution he began the process of Ukrainization (forcing people to accept so called "Ukrainian culture") that is now in full violent swing thanks to Kiev's pro-Western Ukrainian regime.

Lenin was a founding father of modern Ukraine. He created Ukraine as a republic which has kept its current borders (minus Western Ukraine and few other regions). He gave away the territory of Novorossiya, which historically never belonged to Ukraine.

Later, the Soviet leader Khrushchev gave a similar present to Ukraine – Russian Crimea.

Instead of destroying his monuments, Ukrainians should be thankful to Lenin and the communists for the creation of the Ukrainian nation and state.
So while Lenin helped create modern Ukraine, let's recall what he did to Russia:

  • As leader of the revolutionary Bolshevik Party, he was responsible for systematic terror attacks aimed at the Russian empire
  • He destroyed the Russian Empire and killed the Russian tsar and his family. (German authorities allowed Lenin to cross Germany en route from Switzerland to Russia in a sealed train with 10 million dollars. The goal was to destabilise Russia and help Germany win the First World War.)
  • He signed the treacherous Treaty of Brest-Litovsk that gave huge concessions to Germany and Russian territory to neighbouring countries
  • He started the bloodiest civil war in Russian history which resulted in 15 million dead Russians
  • He expropriated public and private property, destroyed thousands of churches and monasteries (destruction of Orthodox church and therefore attempt to destroy the russian identity)
  • He personally signed numerous orders to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians, kulaks (rich peasants), priests and Christians
  • In 1920 Russia became the first country in the world to legalize infanticide (abortion)
  • From 1919 to 1922, disastrous communist policies lead to famine and millions of new victims all around the shattered empire


One could go on and on with this terrifying list...
Most of Ukrainian radicals and in general Russophobes around the world think Russia equals the Soviet Union and that today's Russia bears responsibility for Soviet misdeeds.

It is sheer stupidity to put an equal sign between the Soviet Union and modern Russia. These are two different countries with different political and economic systems and ideologies.

Also thanks to communists, Russia has lost huge swathes of territory. The Russian Empire was much bigger in terms of the territory than the Russian Soviet Republic.
How can Russians be responsible for Soviet misdeeds? Let's have a look at the nationalities of Soviet leaders. Lenin himself, although considered Russian, was of mixed ethnicity with a mother of Jewish and German/Swedish origin and father of Kalmyk origin.

After Lenin, all Soviet leaders were non-Russians. Stalin was Georgian, while Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Chernenko were Ukrainians.

Even Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, was half Ukrainian.
Reinforces the idea that the Soviet Union was an anti-Russian project aimed at weakening/destroying Russian culture and identity and stealing Russian lands (by destruction of monarchy.)

Source: Russian news: Stop Saying Lenin Statues Are a Symbol of Russia. He Hated Russia, and Tortured Her People - Russia Insider
 

jouni

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Stop Saying Lenin Statues Are a Symbol of Russia. He Hated Russia, and Tortured Her People











Reinforces the idea that the Soviet Union was an anti-Russian project aimed at weakening/destroying Russian culture and identity and stealing Russian lands (by destruction of monarchy.)

Source: Russian news: Stop Saying Lenin Statues Are a Symbol of Russia. He Hated Russia, and Tortured Her People - Russia Insider
I agree, by giving Finland independence, he also opened the door to German/Finnish co-operation. Only three months after independence German division landed to Finland to help Finnish government to win the civil war against the Finnish Reds. This co-operation laid the foundation also for WWII Finno-German co-operation.
 

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