Russia cannot give India sophisticated Stealth Technology

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

well as per my knowlege FGFA is a twin seat version of PAK FA with Indian Isreal and French tech installed but I may be wrong

See this

http://hal-fgfa.blogspot.in/

The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmosproject but seems fated to repeat its story. Russia and India had agreed in early 2007 to jointly study and develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme(FGFA).[3][4] On October 27, 2007, Asia Times quoted Sukhoi's director, Mikhail Pogosyan, "We [India and Russia] will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property[of the new project] in a 50-50 proportion."[5] The Indian version, according to the deal, will be different from the Russian version and specific to Indian requirements[6]. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations. The wings and control surfaces need to be reworked for the FGFA.[7] Although, development work has yet to begin, the Russian side has expressed optimism that a test article will be ready for its maiden flight by 2009, one year after PAK FA scheduled maiden flight and induction into service by 2015.[8]According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-31FP.




Difference between PAK FA and FGFA
The difference between PAK FA and the FGFA will be similar to that between Su-30MK and Su-30MKI. Su-30MK is the commercial version of the Russian Su-30M, where as the Su-30MKI (MKI stands for "Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Indiski" meaning "Modernized Commercial India".) jointly-developed with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the Indian Air Force. Includes Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) and canards. Equipped with a multi-national avionics complex sourced from India, Israel, Russia and France[9]. The PAK FA and the FGFA will be having minimum of common technology. Further the FGFA will be predominatly using weapons of Indian origin such as Astra a Beyond Visual Range missile being developed by India. The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian PAK FA because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces


DESIGN
Although there is no reliable information about the PAK FA and FGFAspecifications yet, it is known from interviews with people in the Russian Air Force that it will be stealthy, have the ability to supercruise, be outfitted with the next generation of air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and incorporate an AESA radar. The FGFA will use on her first flights 2 Saturn 117S engines (about 14.5 ton thrust each). The 117S is an advanced version of the AL-31F, but built with the experience gained in the AL-41F program. The AL-41F powered the Mikoyan MFI fighter (Mikoyan Project 1.44). Later versions of the PAK FA will use a completely new engine (17.5 ton thrust each), developed by NPO Saturn or FGUP MMPP Salyut.

SPECIFICATIONS (PAK FA AND FGFA - PROJECTED)


Design of the MiG 1.44 technology demonstrator.
This aircraft article is missing some (or all) of its specifications. If you have a source, you can help Wikipedia by adding them.
Data from Warfare.ru[11]

General characteristics

• Crew: 1 and 2 (pilot)
• Length: 22.0 m (72 ft 2 in)
• Wingspan: 14.2 m (46 ft 7 in)
• Height: 6.05 m (19 ft 10 in)
• Wing area: 78.8 m² (848 ft²)
• Empty weight: 18,500 kg (40,786 lb)
• Loaded weight: 26,000 kg (57,320 lb)
• Useful load: 7,500 kg (16,535 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 37,000 kg (81,571 lb)
• Powerplant: 2× Saturn-Lyulka AL-41F turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 96.1 kN (9,800 kgf, 21,605 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 152 kN (15,500 kgf, 34,172 lbf) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2+ at altitude (2450+ km/h, 1,500+ mph)
• g-limits: 9 to 10 g)
• Cruise speed: 1,300 km/h (807.8 mph)
• Ferry range: 4,000 to 5,500 km (2,485 to 3,418 mi)
• Service ceiling 20,000 m (65,617 ft)
• Rate of climb: 350 m/s (68,898 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 470 kg/m² (96.3 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 0.84 (dry thrust)
• Minimum thrust/weight:
  • With afterburner: 1.19
• Runway length requirement: 350 m (1,148 ft)
• Endurance: 3.3 hrs (198 mins)

Armament

• Guns: 2× 30 mm internal cannon
• Hardpoints: 8 total, 4 on each side of the aircraft.

Avionics

• Radar: N050(?)BRLS AESA/PESA Radar (Enhancement of IRBIS-E) on SU-35
  • Frequency: 3 mm (0.118 in)
  • Diameter: 0.7 m (2 ft 4 in)
  • Targets: 32 tracked, 8 engaged
  • Range: 400 km (248 mi)
    • EPR: 3 m² (32.3 ft²) at 160 km (99.4 mi)
    • RCS: 0.01 m² at 90 km (55 mi)
    • Azimuth: +/-70°, +90/-50°
  • Power: 4,000 W
  • Weight: 65 to 80 kg (143 to 176 lb)

SEE ALSO
Related development

• PAK FA
• Sukhoi Su-47
• Mikoyan Project 1.44

Comparable aircraft

• Mitsubishi ATD-X
• F-22 Raptor
• F-35 Lightning II
• Korea Aerospace Industries KFX
• Medium Combat Aircraft

 

[Krusty]

SEE THIS
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-fifth-generation-fighter-110010600047_1.html

I have read this one. It was specially prepped for the media. But is there any proof that Indian Engineers were actively working with Russian Engineers on the project? As for the composites, does it mean than Indian composite tech was used in the construction of the airframe??

 

[Indx TechStyle]

But we are making FGFA as a Jv

It's JV for only name, we are only giving inputs of our requirements to Russia.

Russians didn't even let us once fly PAK FA on which FGFA is based.

Now, they have denied to share stealth tech openly.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Indian composite tech was used in the construction of the airframe??

I Think it was used in fuselage
And mos probably yes

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

It's JV for only name, we are only giving inputs of our requirements to Russia.

Russians didn't even let us once fly PAK FA on which FGFA is based.

Now, they have denied to share stealth tech openly.

No surprise as you know Indias work share had gone down from 50% to 25% now even less than that
Tell me Which country would give stealth tech
We have to be capable ourselves it would be just a matter of time that Russia would ditch us

 

[su35]

See this

http://hal-fgfa.blogspot.in/

The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmosproject but seems fated to repeat its story. Russia and India had agreed in early 2007 to jointly study and develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme(FGFA).[3][4] On October 27, 2007, Asia Times quoted Sukhoi's director, Mikhail Pogosyan, "We [India and Russia] will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property[of the new project] in a 50-50 proportion."[5] The Indian version, according to the deal, will be different from the Russian version and specific to Indian requirements[6]. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations. The wings and control surfaces need to be reworked for the FGFA.[7] Although, development work has yet to begin, the Russian side has expressed optimism that a test article will be ready for its maiden flight by 2009, one year after PAK FA scheduled maiden flight and induction into service by 2015.[8]According to HAL chairman A.K. Baweja on 16 September 2008, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-31FP.




Difference between PAK FA and FGFA
The difference between PAK FA and the FGFA will be similar to that between Su-30MK and Su-30MKI. Su-30MK is the commercial version of the Russian Su-30M, where as the Su-30MKI (MKI stands for "Modernizirovannyi Kommercheskiy Indiski" meaning "Modernized Commercial India".) jointly-developed with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the Indian Air Force. Includes Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) and canards. Equipped with a multi-national avionics complex sourced from India, Israel, Russia and France[9]. The PAK FA and the FGFA will be having minimum of common technology. Further the FGFA will be predominatly using weapons of Indian origin such as Astra a Beyond Visual Range missile being developed by India. The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian PAK FA because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces


DESIGN
Although there is no reliable information about the PAK FA and FGFAspecifications yet, it is known from interviews with people in the Russian Air Force that it will be stealthy, have the ability to supercruise, be outfitted with the next generation of air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and incorporate an AESA radar. The FGFA will use on her first flights 2 Saturn 117S engines (about 14.5 ton thrust each). The 117S is an advanced version of the AL-31F, but built with the experience gained in the AL-41F program. The AL-41F powered the Mikoyan MFI fighter (Mikoyan Project 1.44). Later versions of the PAK FA will use a completely new engine (17.5 ton thrust each), developed by NPO Saturn or FGUP MMPP Salyut.

SPECIFICATIONS (PAK FA AND FGFA - PROJECTED)


Design of the MiG 1.44 technology demonstrator.
This aircraft article is missing some (or all) of its specifications. If you have a source, you can help Wikipedia by adding them.
Data from Warfare.ru[11]

General characteristics

• Crew: 1 and 2 (pilot)
• Length: 22.0 m (72 ft 2 in)
• Wingspan: 14.2 m (46 ft 7 in)
• Height: 6.05 m (19 ft 10 in)
• Wing area: 78.8 m² (848 ft²)
• Empty weight: 18,500 kg (40,786 lb)
• Loaded weight: 26,000 kg (57,320 lb)
• Useful load: 7,500 kg (16,535 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 37,000 kg (81,571 lb)
• Powerplant: 2× Saturn-Lyulka AL-41F turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 96.1 kN (9,800 kgf, 21,605 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 152 kN (15,500 kgf, 34,172 lbf) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2+ at altitude (2450+ km/h, 1,500+ mph)
• g-limits: 9 to 10 g)
• Cruise speed: 1,300 km/h (807.8 mph)
• Ferry range: 4,000 to 5,500 km (2,485 to 3,418 mi)
• Service ceiling 20,000 m (65,617 ft)
• Rate of climb: 350 m/s (68,898 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 470 kg/m² (96.3 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 0.84 (dry thrust)
• Minimum thrust/weight:
  • With afterburner: 1.19
• Runway length requirement: 350 m (1,148 ft)
• Endurance: 3.3 hrs (198 mins)

Armament

• Guns: 2× 30 mm internal cannon
• Hardpoints: 8 total, 4 on each side of the aircraft.

Avionics

• Radar: N050(?)BRLS AESA/PESA Radar (Enhancement of IRBIS-E) on SU-35
  • Frequency: 3 mm (0.118 in)
  • Diameter: 0.7 m (2 ft 4 in)
  • Targets: 32 tracked, 8 engaged
  • Range: 400 km (248 mi)
    • EPR: 3 m² (32.3 ft²) at 160 km (99.4 mi)
    • RCS: 0.01 m² at 90 km (55 mi)
    • Azimuth: +/-70°, +90/-50°
  • Power: 4,000 W
  • Weight: 65 to 80 kg (143 to 176 lb)

SEE ALSO
Related development

• PAK FA
• Sukhoi Su-47
• Mikoyan Project 1.44

Comparable aircraft

• Mitsubishi ATD-X
• F-22 Raptor
• F-35 Lightning II
• Korea Aerospace Industries KFX
• Medium Combat Aircraft

It is after all a blog not an official confirmation nor does it states about difference between FGFA and PAK FA. The only official hint was about twin seat not about canards development. It was said that the second seat will be done by decreasing fuel tank size. and both su30 su30mki and su30SM have thrust vectoring engine they are not that much different when comes to radar and cockpit and engine

 

[smestarz]

The main problem is not Russians but Indians.
As per the article and my view there are many points which people are overlooking.

1. China unlike India invests a lot on defence and their PSUs are answerable (they can just shoot a guy and pretend that he did not exist, so results are there)

2. We are one of the defence importers but then why did our local industry did not develop, the answer is simple that our Defence forces like IMPORTED MAAL. So what is the point to put a factory develop and produce a product and our country is buying imported stuff. See the case of helmets, One of the indian company is producer for US forces and just recently they got order from India. What the hell are we waiting for?

3. Lack of responsibility there is clearly lack of responsibility when the projects take too much time to complete,

If the Govt limits some hi tech projects ONLY FOR THE PRIVATE INDIAN COMPANIES, we might see Indian companies going for the big piece of pie. Also at a point of time the govt should tell the forces that we shall be using ONLY INDIAN PRODUCTS. If they cannot ensure it, why not do a nuclear testing, and we shall be in the right environment (due to embargo)

No country will want to share its hi tech as they spent lot of time and money on it unless its a little bit obsolete, Ruissia is no differemt. But the point is that the past govts have been so involved in bribes that they overlooked the ToT and felt its not that important because they did plan only to import, so what the hell are they going to do with ToT?

Russians gave inferior monkey models for Tanks and denied the technology for Smerch and tank Barrels so why would they transfer stealth tech. FGFA will suffer the same fate as Tejas. By the time DRDO fully develop any Project it becomes near obsolete lol

The only Nation which is ready to transfer their Defense Tech is Israel not piece of trash Russians.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

The DPSU model has failed miserably. What we need is British model where private companies are free to operate in any sphere of defence provided they give the Government a Golden Share. A golden shareholder has final say in all matters provided he does not interfere in day to day functioning. Off course cyber protection of these cos will have to be MODs responsibility. But management should be given targets and left free to achieve them. DRDO can play the role of consultant and integrator. We should privatize all these junk PSUs like HAL with golden share to Govt.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

It is after all a blog not an official confirmation nor does it states about difference between FGFA and PAK FA. The only official hint was about twin seat not about canards development. It was said that the second seat will be done by decreasing fuel tank size. and both su30 su30mki and su30SM have thrust vectoring engine they are not that much different when comes to radar and cockpit and engine

FGFA has 43 Improvements Over pak fa
And FGFA does not have canards please show me one pic of its which have canards
And can you give me the source about twin seat development and decreasing fuel tank size
And about su 30 sm Afiak it has improved pesa Radar over our su 30 pesa Radar

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Russian propaganda in full light
Source:-http://in.rbth.com/defence/2017/03/15/minor-obstacles-hamper-transfer-of-military-technology-from-russia-to-india_720123
Website :- India & Russia report
Why India fails to fully localise Russian defence technology
15 March 2017 KSENIA ZUBACHEVA
While India enjoys a privileged status among Russian partners, it is not completely ready to produce Russian defence technology on its own.






India’s indigenous AMCA is set to fly on Russian technology

• View from Virginia: Why Russia is India’s dominant arms supplier

• Make in India is an ideal platform for the Russian defence industry: expert

TAGS
FGFA, INDO-RUSSIAN COOPERATION, DEFENCE, MILITARY TECHNOLOGY

India’s workforce is still not fully trained to handle Russian technology. Source: Getty Images

On Mar. 9 the Times of India reported that Delhi is making extra demands to Moscow when it comes to the joint production of a Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Citing sources in the Indian Defence Ministry, the report said that India would go in for this joint venture only under the condition of a full-scale technology transfer and if Russia provided help in the development of the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

According to the paper, the Indian side bases such demands on the experience of the Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore ($8.4 billion) without any “tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.” The recipient company Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is still unable to manufacture the Sukhois on its own, the paper noted.

RIR asked experts to explain whether Indian demands were justified and where the real problem lay.

‘Red line’ in technology transfer
Without a doubt, there are some limitations on the extent to which a country would transfer its military technology, experts believe. According to Alexander Ermakov, expert at the Russian International Affairs Council (RIAC), this especially concerns critical types of technology that influence the ability of a country to ensure its security: most importantly missile technology, communications and electronic warfare systems.

 

[su35]

FGFA has 43 Improvements Over pak fa
And FGFA does not have canards please show me one pic of its which have canards
And can you give me the source about twin seat development and decreasing fuel tank size
And about su 30 sm Afiak it has improved pesa Radar over our su 30 pesa Radar

Your quoted blog say so about canards. I am not really sure about Improved pesa radar as most of time Russia export variants are degraded one

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Russian propaganda in full light
Source:-http://in.rbth.com/defence/2017/03/15/minor-obstacles-hamper-transfer-of-military-technology-from-russia-to-india_720123
Website :- India & Russia report
Why India fails to fully localise Russian defence technology
15 March 2017 KSENIA ZUBACHEVA
While India enjoys a privileged status among Russian partners, it is not completely ready to produce Russian defence technology on its own.






India’s indigenous AMCA is set to fly on Russian technology

• View from Virginia: Why Russia is India’s dominant arms supplier

• Make in India is an ideal platform for the Russian defence industry: expert

TAGS
FGFA, INDO-RUSSIAN COOPERATION, DEFENCE, MILITARY TECHNOLOGY

India’s workforce is still not fully trained to handle Russian technology. Source: Getty Images

On Mar. 9 the Times of India reported that Delhi is making extra demands to Moscow when it comes to the joint production of a Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Citing sources in the Indian Defence Ministry, the report said that India would go in for this joint venture only under the condition of a full-scale technology transfer and if Russia provided help in the development of the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

According to the paper, the Indian side bases such demands on the experience of the Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore ($8.4 billion) without any “tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.” The recipient company Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is still unable to manufacture the Sukhois on its own, the paper noted.

RIR asked experts to explain whether Indian demands were justified and where the real problem lay.

‘Red line’ in technology transfer
Without a doubt, there are some limitations on the extent to which a country would transfer its military technology, experts believe. According to Alexander Ermakov, expert at the Russian International Affairs Council (RIAC), this especially concerns critical types of technology that influence the ability of a country to ensure its security: most importantly missile technology, communications and electronic warfare systems.

Sadly this article is right. I have personally witnessed work culture in a NAVRATNA PSU like BHEL where people arrive sharp at 8:30 and do not stay a minute beyond 4:30. Privatization is only way out this mess.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Getting something is better than getting not getting anything

Exactly, that's why buying PAK FA is better than waiting for FGFA.

at all they would give more TOT than that landing gear only

Kuchh dede vahi shukar maan.

For now, they have ruled out any type of Indian involvement in development. Aisi ToT toh absorb bhi ni hogi.

See I am not whole heartedly defending the Russians you know I acknowledge that these Russians have fooled us in the past and bribed our ministers

But new ministers are sane,

They asked a simple question to Russians and made the project strangent after a no.

But we cannot back out of the project now we have poured billions of money into it man

Putting a single more ₹ is an utter wastage of time.
FGFA in nowhere near materialization even after years.

Better to divert towards production of LCA, MRCAs & development of AMCA.

 

[scatterStorm]

Israelis pioneer the use of Drones in warfare and show it to the world how to win wars against all odds with limited resources. They know how to improvise.


For ex when the world denied them heavy artillery to fight a war against Arabs they figure out the cheap alternative by themselves by developing a 160 mm Heavy mortar M 66.


They helped India during Kargil and now majority of our critical surveillance and other equipments on LoC are of Israeli origin helping us winning the attrition war against Pakis.


LORROS, ELM/ 2140 etc you name it .........

No just artillery but small arms as well, they are the true juagadoos! Unless we don't take a major hit to our nation, we won't learn. We have the capabilities but we are unfortunately pussies.

 

[scatterStorm]

Yes off course, that's why they are stepping back now.
It's UPA who brought us in problem & NDA is pulling out.

Haan, usme khush ho jaiyo, last ToT they did give us was a tank gun barrel after crying for 10 years.

Now, they will probably give for landing gear
Aur tu naach padega!

Both are Junk. Difference is that one is flying in air and other on paper.

I know which one I have to choose.

(Hint: No JV exists, it's pure funding intended by Russia for project but not involving in any development.)

Yup definitely a paper tiger plane!

 

[scatterStorm]

Correct me if I'm wrong but most of its defence equipment, Russia buys internally.
And now the RUB can buy more than it could last year. So this means even though there seems to be a cut, the impact will be limited, not as much as one would expect from a 25% cut.

Agreed they are not dumb enough, surely there must be some kind of back channelling, otherwise how would they fund for the 5th gen jet's and LRSAAMs and subs! Unless they are planning to replace dollar based trading with middle east nations? Starting off with Syria and Iran?

 

[smestarz]

PAKFA is not a bad design, but we have already put our leg in the hole,.
Now what we have to think is
a) do we jump in the hole (spend more money and get PAKFA MKI)
b) or do we say "we are not going to fund more, whatever we funded, just give us ToT for that, and forget it and focus on AMCA.
c) Simply insist on ToT as part of any deal.
All depends on who blinks first.

India has a big defence need and everyone knows it, so Russia's lost might be USA, Germany, France , Israel, ... gain. Would the Russians manage to do that? Perhaps they can and also we can,

We are already building IAC, we should develop Submarines along with Netherlands and Japan, who have vast experience with them. We are already doing with French but lets not depend on them either.

Japan and Korea are developing their 5th Gen plane, if we think to develop it along with Japan, we can share inputs and perhaps due to more nos we manage to lower the cost of research for them and us.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

PAKFA is not a bad design, but we have already put our leg in the hole,.
Now what we have to think is
a) do we jump in the hole (spend more money and get PAKFA MKI)
b) or do we say "we are not going to fund more, whatever we funded, just give us ToT for that, and forget it and focus on AMCA.
c) Simply insist on ToT as part of any deal.
All depends on who blinks first.

India has a big defence need and everyone knows it, so Russia's lost might be USA, Germany, France , Israel, ... gain. Would the Russians manage to do that? Perhaps they can and also we can,

We are already building IAC, we should develop Submarines along with Netherlands and Japan, who have vast experience with them. We are already doing with French but lets not depend on them either.

Japan and Korea are developing their 5th Gen plane, if we think to develop it along with Japan, we can share inputs and perhaps due to more nos we manage to lower the cost of research for them and us.

I would prefer Option B
...................

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Your quoted blog say so about canards. I am not really sure about Improved pesa radar as most of time Russia export variants are degraded one

Aah that image Is of mig 1.44 technology demonstrator it was proposed for the cancelled Mig 37

 

[hardip]

Defiantly.........................

Its very game changer Technology.... for any Air force....

How important....??

USAF
proove ...

First gulf war, Bosnia and Yugoslavia War, Also in Operation Geronimo.....


Russia is Frandly for india
but That mean not that ..Rusiia give all .. u what india need...