Russia and China relations

[Tshering22]

The Chinese only made some subtle changes otherwise is the same machine:

Exactly!! Check the first and the last diagrams MiG-1.44 and J-20 are so similar.

 

[Shaitan]

Russia plays by the same rules as the USA. "We don't have friends, only interest." Most nations play this game.


Indian military needs to be self reliant.

But then again, we are partnering with the Russians on their best fighter, also a transport plane, and cruise missiles. And also allowing India to make MKI by itself in India including its Al-31FP engine.

 

[sandeepdg]

^^ Nobody had any doubts about this ! Every so called cutting-edge Chinese hardware bears a striking resemblance to a Russian or Western design neatly souped up.

If Russia is playing a game, then it is because it makes business sense to them, after all like in war, everything's fair in business ! And if others are playing a double game, then so should we. We should depend heavily on a single nation for our defense purchases, we should diversify to make sure we keep the others guessing and that is the reason India is buying stuff from US, Israel and Europeans. Not to neglect the fact that quality of products from the West are much superior to the usual stuff we buy from the Russians.

 

[Virendra]

Russia plays by the same rules as the USA. "We don't have friends, only interest." Most nations play this game.

Indian military needs to be self reliant.

But then again, we are partnering with the Russians on their best fighter, also a transport plane, and cruise missiles. And also allowing India to make MKI by itself in India including its Al-31FP engine.

A country of our stature, potential and aspirations should have been more self reliant at this stage. It is extremely important now and understandably it cannot be bought overnight. We also don't have any USSR collapse to get a big push from. But even then, the purchase/import of required stuff and the mission of self reliance have to go hand in hand. That is the only sensible way for now.
We've been denied crucial technologies, products in critical times before. We cannot rely on anyone else as we're an emerging power and there are many of them who want to drag us down.
Its a thing of past that we were just another 3rd world country which couldn't intimidate any of the major powers via getting techo assistance and procurement etc. With time our defense requirements and undertakings have gone more and more advanced/challenging and the major powers are more and more averse/sensitive to allow us huge assistance for such endeavors.
Best would be to increase the thrust towards self reliance and indegenous R & D.

As far as Russians are concerned, they have been good friends and we cannot expect the relations to be perfect/rosy always. There are those occasional bumps. Russian economy is too dependent on Defense and Oil based revenue. Much more than the American and European competitors they had at the recent MMRCA short listing, perhaps the results were practically telling on Russians more than anyone else. However I still regard Russians as good friends and more reliable than Americans or any other ally today. For whatever reasons you subscribe it to - I can never forget the risky maneuvers the Russians did in 1971 against the US fleet looming over the Indian Navy.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[sandeepdg]

I can never forget the risky maneuvers the Russians did in 1971 against the US fleet looming over the Indian Navy.

That was an incident that showed the depth of Indo-USSR ties. Most people seem to have forgotten it or are hardly aware.

 

[Virendra]

Yeah. There were two noteable things:
a) The problem could've escalated to the two superpowers direct clash and what not. That was the risk
b) Counter to that, I believe that the reason Russians did stand in front of that fleet is that they knew this was all a game of intimidation and not actual flares. Both sides had the stakes ringing in the hindsight.
So Russains just smartly replied to intimidation with intimidation .... like "You go after Indians, we come after you"

 

[KS]

Russia =/= USSR.

There is a distinction.

Of course Russia can have a special relationship with India, but not the Friendship bs of the good old USSR days.

 

[Virendra]

Its not the same as old days I know, but also we're not just another third world country as the old days.
So obviously the relationship has evolved.
The goosebumps are there because Russians are realising in their own way that Indians are taking equal partner stance.
The days of it being like big brother small brother are gone, so the loss of some love

 

[warriorextreme]

Russia and USA both of them are like businessmen...every businessman has hidden interests..

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Its not the same as old days I know, but also we're not just another third world country as the old days.
So obviously the relationship has evolved.
The goosebumps are there because Russians are realising in their own way that Indians are taking equal partner stance.
The days of it being like big brother small brother are gone, so the loss of some love

Hardly, Soviet Russia was no different. The Russians tried hard to fill the void caused by US arms Embargo to Pakistan in 1965.
The below excerpts from the Indian Navy website is quite illuminating mg:.

In June 1966, a Pakistan naval delegation visited the Soviet naval bases in Odessa and Sevastopol in the Black Sea. They were shown a submarine, an anti submarine vessel, a missile boat, a Landing Ship Tank (LST) and a motor torpedo boat. Neither mines nor maritime reconnaissance aircraft were offered or shown.

In May 1968, a two ship Soviet naval squadron visited Karachi. It was the first ever visit of Soviet warships to Pakistan. Discussions centred on the Soviet side being able to help modernise the ships of the Pakistan fleet. The Pakistan Government also formally requested for a feasibly study of fitting Soviet surface to surface missile on the Pakistan Navy's destroyers.

Chapter-7 THE 1971 INDO-PAKISTAN WAR

 

[civfanatic]

Hardly, Soviet Russia was no different. The Russians tried hard to fill the void caused by US arms Embargo to Pakistan in 1965.
The below excerpts from the Indian Navy website is quite illuminating mg:.



Chapter-7 THE 1971 INDO-PAKISTAN WAR

Hardly surprising. The Indo-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation was signed in 1971. Until that time, India was a truly non-aligned country. Pakistan's strategic location made it the object of American, Soviet, and Chinese diplomatic maneuvers.

 

[guoyinag]

in my opinion, Russia not only play double game with India but china as well. however, the Chinese government are little more careful than India when signing the contract for we have already aware of this.

i do think china and India can cooperate in the new military system development such as a frigate or a lighter fighter in the future. although it may be difficult in the beginning, but we will get used of it.

 

[Parthy]

Mods, Lets have a poll on this thread "What do we think about Russia's relationship with India in current decade"....

 

[Yusuf]

Mods, Lets have a poll on this thread "What do we think about Russia's relationship with India in current decade"....

Poll added........

 

[roma]

vis a vis russia ~india relations , the main question is how much does russia trust dragon, the rising superpower ? that would be an overall determinant . MEthinks any military relationship is based on russian perception that they are miles ahead technologically over dragon , otherwise they better need india as a counterbalance , much as usa is viewing the same. any undrestimation on russia's part to dragon would have serious consequences - so it is in their interest not to play too much with india .---much better for htem to keep the friendship at a great level barring some minor negotiative spasms.

 

[no smoking]

vis a vis russia ~india relations , the main question is how much does russia trust dragon, the rising superpower ? that would be an overall determinant . MEthinks any military relationship is based on russian perception that they are miles ahead technologically over dragon , otherwise they better need india as a counterbalance , much as usa is viewing the same. any undrestimation on russia's part to dragon would have serious consequences - so it is in their interest not to play too much with india .---much better for htem to keep the friendship at a great level barring some minor negotiative spasms.

Well, the main question is not how much does russia trust dragon. Russia will never trust anyone, including india. And neither does any country. We are all in a great game.

 

[Parthy]

Well, the main question is not how much does russia trust dragon. Russia will never trust anyone, including india. And neither does any country. We are all in a great game.

Russia doesn't trust dragon that is well known, they are in still touch only because of the fact that it considers China as a good market place for their defense products.. But unfortunately, Chinese started to copycat the Russian products faster than anybody and stood against them.. Thanks to the kind of Quality, the Chinese had in their product, they're yet to compete the Russians completely and yet to master the Hi-fi techs.....

In case of India, Russia do trust us.. But the case is totally different in case of defense procurements.. Russian products are not able to sustain the world defense environment which has become more competitive because of hi-tech and equally qualitative European markets.. Russia still has the old vintage production lines for most of it tanks & front-end fighters. India is bit frustrated with the timeline and Russia's inability to supply spare parts to the already supplied fighters and cargo carriers.. Adding to the fire, there were cost escalation with Adm.Gorshkov and deadline missed for the talwar class deliveries...

IMO, the relation between Russia and India has refrained only in Defense sector but not Politically...

 

[Rahul92]

I believe in Russia

 

[arya]

russia is well trusted friend but that does not mean to be a blind man

 

[roma]

Well, the main question is not how much does russia trust dragon. Russia will never trust anyone, including india. And neither does any country. We are all in a great game.

thanks for your reply .... unfortunately i wouldnt agree ... take for example the nato countries , there is a certin higher level of trust among them ... take usa -britain , a very high level of trust - similarly india -bhutan and in the days of the warsaw pact among them - today armenia-russia has a very high level of trust ? so your concept of mistrust btween nations simply is your idea and perhaps prc point of view .