Rs. 11000 Crore for Modernization of Central Paramilitary Forces

Discussion in 'Internal Security' started by ladder, May 2, 2013.

  1. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    Likes Received:
    2,666
    Location:
    India

    CCS Approved 11000 Crore Rupees Project for Modernisation of Central Paramilitary Forces
     
  2.  
  3. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    Likes Received:
    2,666
    Location:
    India
  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    43,117
    Likes Received:
    23,545
    Location:
    Somewhere
    They don't require modernisation.

    They require TRAINING!

    But then Ministers and Bureaucrats, who have no clue of operations, feel that weapons and numbers are what delivers.

    One pities these stupid people at the helm of our destiny!
     
  5. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    Location:
    Assam
    Who can blame our Babus? We'd be lucky if they even understood what COIN meant, let alone how to deploy forces.. Someone from MHA, a specialist babu, actually wanted bayonets for the Sniper rifles they procure....

    But since we are talking about weapons,

    during Vietnam, the US experts, based on statistics, were of the opinion that in a short range to medium range gun-battle, the gun and the number of bullets fired ( and consequently, the rate of fire of the gun) determined the outcome and the number of casualties on either side, not so much the training.

    The result young soldiers were given fully auto M-16s, and then came the realisation that the inexperienced soldiers would waste too much ammo and were out of rounds very quickly in a gun battle, end result...dead. The experienced and well trained Marine recons and Army SFs, with their older M14s, managed far better kill:killed ratios

    Statistics and analysis can only tell you so much. You need someone experienced in the said field. I kind of like the way the US generals enter politics. It helps when a soldier enters a high political post,( by political means only). Atleast he knows what to make of the reports and reccomendations of the lazy bureacrats.

    But here, the generals, and the officer class (except Jaswant Singh) turn blue at the very notion of politics. Good for democracy, I guess, but good for the nation? I don't know.
     
    Vishwarupa, arnabmit and Ray like this.
  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    43,117
    Likes Received:
    23,545
    Location:
    Somewhere
    This is a very important aspect you have mentioned since quite a few out here want to claim that the IA should have fully auto weapons instead of semi automatic.

    Could you give a link?

    It is all a question of hurly burly of politics - money and muscle to get elected.

    Both are missing and no political party would like them around.

    Look at Mickey Manmohan.

    A decent man with impeccable credential.

    He never got elected!

    That is acceptable to some extent, but look what it has caused him.

    He is appearing ridiculously incompetent, and what is worse, an acclaimed economist, is now looking as if he does not know his subject having presided over Indian economic demise bringing immense woes to the rich as more to the poor!

    And the Congress Party doing everything to make him as the villain of the piece, Aruna Roy resigning, Manmohan claiming that Sonia G never interfered and he alone was the fool and so on!

    As GB Shaw said - Politics is the last resort for the scoundrels!
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
    arnabmit and DivineHeretic like this.
  7. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    Location:
    Assam
    Several links are available....

    This is for the M16A2, developed on request of USMC, after their experience in Vietnam...

    The action was also modified, replacing the fully automatic setting with a three-round burst setting.[11]-When using a fully automatic weapon, inexperienced troops often hold down the trigger and "spray" when under fire. The U.S. Army concluded that three-shot groups provide an optimum combination of ammunition conservation, accuracy and firepower.---Venola, Richard (2005). "What a Long Strange Trip It's Been".-Book of the AR-15-

    It was also found during the Vietnam war, that many soldiers would put their M16s into full-automatic mode and when in a firefight, new soldiers would often hold down the trigger and shoot entire magazines into the bushes in a few seconds, without killing a single enemy. This caused many of them to run out of ammunition prematurely. Also, the act of firing in full-automatic mode makes the rifle more difficult to control and thereby reduces accuracy. The US military conducted various tests a decided to replace the full-automatic firing mode with a three-round burst mode (i.e. upto 3 rounds would fire when the trigger is held down), because the three-round burst was determined to be the optimum balance between accuracy, ammunition conservation and firepower
    ---
    Firearms History, Technology & Development: History and Development of the Assault Rifle - VII


    There are several other references about the inefficiency and ineffectiveness of full auto AR fire...

    Here's one...

    http://kitup.military.com/2011/01/full-auto-not-the-way-to-go.html

    Note the author....Brandon Webb, an ex NAVY SEALS sniper.

    There are also dozens of such articles by ex SFs, including from the Spetznaz, where the full auto is considered ineffective.
     
  8. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    Likes Received:
    2,666
    Location:
    India
    One of the objective of the modernization was also
    So, the vision document had that in mind
    But, what then what went wrong?
    Now,
    Who decides the following
    1. What shall be the duration of basic training?
    2. What shall be the components of basic training?
    3. To review whether or not the training imparted is in-line with the operational requirement of the agency in question.
    4. To see to it that training methodology is updated with the change in scenario and tactics of adversary
    5. What kind of specialized training is required and to whom it should be given?
    6. what kind of training aids shall be procured to see that training imparted is more effective.
    7. How a continues and effective training is provided to each man/woman joining and in active duty in the agency.
    8. How much and how often the plans envisioned on tables be validated on fields?

    These are a few questions that comes to one's mind.

    I think the answer would be a technical panel which includes the top bosses of Paramilitary.

    They are also responsible for deciding what components of the grant should be dedicated for expansion, procurement of weapons, procurement other essential stuff and most importantly training.

    So, a committee was formed with a intention of the following
    But, still the results are not what is desired,
    So, if the Top bosses of these CAPF / paramilitary are clue-less can you blame Politicians and bureaucrats alone?

    Note: quoted text is from the pdf in post no.2
     
  9. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    Likes Received:
    2,666
    Location:
    India
    A good account is presented in the below article for reforms for IPS cadre for CAPFs who will solve the leadership issues these organisation faces

    and so the solution proposed is


    and

    Page 18,19 of the below pdf under the heading " Entry of IPS officers into Central Police Organisations " for details
    http://bprd.nic.in/writereaddata/linkimages/8859827331-SIXTH REPORT.pdf
     
  10. ALBY

    ALBY Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,990
    Likes Received:
    1,490
    Location:
    KOTTAYAM,KERALA
    Just a simple question why recruiting IPS officers to paramil on deputation when there is direcct recruitment to the post of Asst commandants.Why always IPS officers to ledd the para millitary as every one knows that they dont have much training in the roles done by para military whicch are doing mainly CT ops
     
  11. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    Likes Received:
    2,666
    Location:
    India
    The question is not so simple as you project it to be
    Historically IPS have been the finest police officers to lead the Police.
    Good officers from non-IPS cadres were promoted to IPS cadre.
    so, It was always a IPS who lead a police force. similar to their civil counterpart.(IAS)

    But as you rightfully pointed out this cadre recently have been found wanting in their leadership for CAPF's who have a unique position between Armed forces and policing force.
    So, the article from where I have quoted recommends few points to remove certain problems pertaining to IPS, among them are a few point related to IPS in CAPF's
    The article proposes that IPS should be the only directly recruited officer in CAPF's from UPSC.
    But,
    The recommendation are to be followed after a series of reforms proposed in the article.
    The prominent being creating a center cadre of IPS for CAPF's who would be of 20-24 years and undergo 5yrs of training including field work.
    The other offices will be from armed forces and other officers from CAPF's who will have the option to get promoted as IPS later
    The rest officers in CAPF's will be IPS from state cadres to improve inter-operatibility.

    So, when young officers are recruited as IPS in centre cadre and given 5 yrs of training on specifics of operation on CAPF's then there will be no requirement of asst-commandant level direct requirement.

    But, in the present format, the IPS still represents a feudal representative and they occupying top-level positions do hamper the operation as they are not exposed to that kind of operations in their careers.
    Also asst-commandant officers who are promoted fair well because they have considerable experience of leading field operation.
    CRPF: A force in denial | India Security Monitor

    But there is considerable tussle between IPS and non-iPS in CAPF's for promotion and due to skewed procedures deserving is not always promoted

    Quoted from pdf from post no. 8
    The data is old but gives a good picture.

    But all is not lost in the current situation and tussle between IPS and non-IPS
    First non-IPS officer to head BSF operations at Indo-Bangla border - Times Of India

    But IPS is an excellent cadre but their training are not in sync with demand that CAPF's face.

    Some of the recommendation might have been already accepted by PMO as
    was proposed a lateral entry of CAPF, armed forces and state police forces into IPS cadre

    UPSC to hold separate exams to fill vacant Indian Police Services posts

    But unfortunately AFAIK this is presently under stay order.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
    ALBY likes this.
  12. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,636
    Likes Received:
    11,706
    more money to buy better equipment for anti terror operations.
     
  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    43,117
    Likes Received:
    23,545
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Police officers do not lead.

    The SHO leads.

    In any operations, officers have to lead and not NCOs.

    In the police forces of India, an inspector is a non-gazetted police officer ranking above a Sub-Inspector and below a Deputy Superintendent of Police (DySP) or an Assistant Commissioner of Police (ACP).

    The Station House officers of Police Stations in this territory shall be in the rank of SubInspectors of Police
    http://police.pondicherry.gov.in/Po...ice Station and the Station House Officer.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013

Share This Page