Rise of neo-nazi Golden Dawn in Greece

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
@Mad Indian

Like I mentioned, there is a long long way before we even get close to the situation in Greece and other EU countries. And among other things, even the trend lines don't match. Our debt-to-GDP ratio is going down not up. Our GDP is expanding not contracting and so on.

The graph that you had were percentages of expenditure not percentage of GDP. Since % of GDP gives better idea with respect to the size of the economy, it makes better sense to use that. Our subsidies cost around 40-42 Billion USD last year and we speant around 13 Billion USD on actual welfare like Health and Education. So around roughly 55 billion USD of 1.6 trillion USD economy is 3.5% of GDP.

And again on taxes and revenue, I mentioned that the GoI has been given massive tax cuts for a number of years now particularly as part of the GFC stimulus package. The revenue foregone only for FY 11 was around 30 Billion USD, much less than say the MNREGA's 6 billion USD. And infact this had come down from last years' 8Billion USD earmarked for NREGA. The large tax sops to exporters and industry over the years adds to the fiscal deficit just like spending does.

Right now, deficit is not something we should be worrying about. Its growth. In a downturn, the govt. SHOULD be running a deficit to increase demand and jumpstart the economy. When the economy does well, the govt. should remove itself from the economic scene and balance its book and pair down its debt.

The slowdown has multiple factors and its not all because of the global slowdown but it is still an important part of it. Very briefly IMO I would put it on
(1) Slow pace of reforms either because of coaltion politics or internally divided Congress (Add DTC, GST, fuel price rationalising, subsidies, FDI in multibrand retail and aviation, new company bill e.t.c.)
(2) Very agressive monetary policy by RBI which has hiked Interest rates to very high levels. This directly affects investment.
(3) EU slowdown and lack of liqudity in global markets where investors were eager to invest in emerging markets.
(4) Very high oil prices where we had oil around 126 dollar a barrel compared to say 10 or even 5 years ago. We get a double whammy because the cost arn't passed on to consumers but borne by the govt. in the form of subsidies which directly impacts govt. finances.
 

Mad Indian

Proud Bigot
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
12,835
Likes
7,762
Country flag
ok one more thing which makes no sense to me. How is that subsidies are 30% of GDP I said Greece while the govt spending is 50% of it s revenue in subsides? Is not the subsidy something given solely by govt? Does that mean govt revenue from tax is 50% of the GDP? Then how come tax revenue is only 20% of GDP?

Use the same in India. The govt spending(which I think is more important) is 52% on welfare and subsidy while tax generation is 10%. Hence it makes sense if subsidies are only 5% of GDP
 

ejazr

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
^^^^

I just noticed another basic issue with the % of expenditure stats that you were quoting earlier. This is not just social welfare spending, but subsidies and other transfers

It includes items like grants and revenue passed on to other govt. bodies like states in India and provinces in Greece. So for our discussion, its not really accurate because these includes central grants and other payments that go to states.

Atleast for India, the budget was around $300 B USD last year and with a $ 54-55 Billion USD welfare spending includes subsidies but exclusing state grants and revenue transfers to state govt.s we are looking at ~18% of expenditure.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5973996/Users/Rhema/GB-GLANCE CENTRE SPREAD_new.pdf
Defence is around 17%, while Interest payments are around 19% of the expenditure.

The point really is not to increase welfare spending at present, although to be fair, it will have to increase given that even Bangladesh and Senegal spend more on social welfare as a % of their GDP. We first needs to fix our subsidy system and better utilise the $ 40+ B in subsidies that we waste in fuel and fertilisers and instead spend that money on health and education. That alone would increase the effectiveness of welfare spending
 

Mad Indian

Proud Bigot
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
12,835
Likes
7,762
Country flag
^^^^

I just noticed another basic issue with the % of expenditure stats that you were quoting earlier. This is not just social welfare spending, but subsidies and other transfers

It includes items like grants and revenue passed on to other govt. bodies like states in India and provinces in Greece. So for our discussion, its not really accurate because these includes central grants and other payments that go to states.

Atleast for India, the budget was around $300 B USD last year and with a $ 54-55 Billion USD welfare spending includes subsidies but exclusing state grants and revenue transfers to state govt.s we are looking at ~18% of expenditure.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5973996/Users/Rhema/GB-GLANCE CENTRE SPREAD_new.pdf
Defence is around 17%, while Interest payments are around 19% of the expenditure.

The point really is not to increase welfare spending at present, although to be fair, it will have to increase given that even Bangladesh and Senegal spend more on social welfare as a % of their GDP. We first needs to fix our subsidy system and better utilise the $ 40+ B in subsidies that we waste in fuel and fertilisers and instead spend that money on health and education. That alone would increase the effectiveness of welfare spending
:hmm: May be sir. Lets wait and watch how this spans out. I need to do more study on economics for understanding this issue.
 

LurkerBaba

Super Mod
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
7,882
Likes
8,125
Country flag
Fascists in black shirts are waving swastikas and murdering ethnic minorities


"After the immigrants, you're next."
That's what was written on flyers that appeared this week in the gay clubbing district of Athens. As violence against immigrants and ethnic minorities escalates across Greece, supporters of the ultra-right Golden Dawn party have also begun to promote hate attacks on homosexuals and people with disabilities. These fascists march with black shirts and flares through Athens, terrorising ethnic and sexual minorities, waving an insignia which looks like nothing but an unravelled swastika, and declaring disdain for the political process. And yet, across Europe, they continue to be treated as a mere symptom of Greece's economic crisis.



Actual fascists in actual black shirts are actually marching around Athens waving swastikas and burning torches, and maiming and murdering ethnic minorities, and world governments appear frighteningly relaxed about it as long as the Greek people continue to pay off the debts of the European elite. When the lessons of history are taught by rote, they can be easy to miss when most needed. This time, Europe must remember that the price of fostering fascism is crueller and costlier by far than any national debt.

Laurie Penny: It's not rhetoric to draw parallels with Nazism - Commentators - Opinion - The Independent
 

The Messiah

Bow Before Me!
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
10,809
Likes
4,619
I hope they come to power. Similarly all right wing parties should rise to power in nations across europe.

Then see the fireoworks.
 

civfanatic

Retired
Ambassador
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
4,562
Likes
2,570
It's truly amazing how far the "cradle" of Western civilization has fallen.

If only the Oracle could have predicted the bankruptcy of the Greek state. :laugh:
 

LurkerBaba

Super Mod
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
7,882
Likes
8,125
Country flag

spikey360

Crusader
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
3,453
Likes
6,382
Country flag
This is good. Golden Dawn should capture power in a manner similar to NSDP and bring Europe back the glory of her past. Beyond doubt what they are doing against the immigrants and the perverted is right. Those elements should be banished from Greece if they are to stand up on her own feet once again.
 

KS

Bye bye DFI
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
8,005
Likes
5,758
I hope they come to power. Similarly all right wing parties should rise to power in nations across europe.

Then see the fireoworks.
Would you support a right-wing party in India ?
 

LurkerBaba

Super Mod
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
7,882
Likes
8,125
Country flag
Anonymous hacks Golden Dawn's New York website


After news broke Monday that Greek neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn had opened up an office in New York to garner expat support, it did not take long for Anonymous hackers to get to work bringing down its communications systems.

The Twitter account, @YourAnonNews, often used to make announcements for the hacker collective, first publicly posted the phone number connected to the fascist group's Queens-based office and invited followers to "give them a warm welcome to the neighborhood."

A follow up tweet asserted, in characteristically playful parlance, that the hackers had disabled Golden Dawn's New York chapter website

Anonymous attacks Golden Dawn NY’s website - Salon.com
 

LurkerBaba

Super Mod
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
7,882
Likes
8,125
Country flag
Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors'

Greece's far-right Golden Dawn party is increasingly assuming the role of law enforcement officers on the streets of the bankrupt country, with mounting evidence that Athenians are being openly directed by police to seek help from the neo-Nazi group, analysts, activists and lawyers say.

In return, a growing number of Greek crime victims have come to see the party, whose symbol bears an uncanny resemblance to the swastika, as a "protector".

One victim of crime, an eloquent US-trained civil servant, told the Guardian of her family's shock at being referred to the party when her mother recently called the police following an incident involving Albanian immigrants in their downtown apartment block.


People hold sacks of potatoes during a food distribution organised by Golden Dawn, in Athens. Photograph: Yorgos Karahalis/Reuters

"They immediately said if it's an issue with immigrants go to Golden Dawn," said the 38-year-old, who fearing for her job and safety, spoke only on condition of anonymity. "We don't condone Golden Dawn but there is an acute social problem that has come with the breakdown of feeling of security among lower and middle class people in the urban centre," she told the Guardian. "If the police and official mechanism can't deliver and there is no recourse to justice, then you have to turn to other maverick solutions."

Other Greeks with similar experiences said the far-rightists, catapulted into parliament on a ticket of tackling "immigrant scum" were simply doing the job of a defunct state that had left a growing number feeling overwhelmed by a "sense of powerlessness". "Nature hates vacuums and Golden Dawn is just filling a vacuum that no other party is addressing," one woman lamented. "It gives 'little people' a sense that they can survive, that they are safe in their own homes."

Far from being tamed, parliamentary legitimacy appears only to have emboldened the extremists. In recent weeks racially-motivated attacks have proliferated. Immigrants have spoken of their fear of roaming the streets at night following a spate of attacks by black-clad men on motorbikes. Street vendors from Africa and Asia have also been targeted.

"For a lot of people in poorer neighbourhoods we are liberators," crowed Yiannis Lagos, one of 18 MPs from the stridently patriot "popular nationalist movement" to enter the 300-seat house in June. "The state does nothing," he told a TV chat show, adding that Golden Dawn was the only party that was helping Greeks, hit by record levels of poverty and unemployment, on the ground. Through an expansive social outreach programme, which also includes providing services to the elderly in crime-ridden areas, the group regularly distributes food and clothes parcels to the needy.

But the hand-outs come at a price: allegiance to Golden Dawn. "A friend who was being seriously harassed by her husband and was referred to the party by the police very soon found herself giving it clothes and food in return," said a Greek teacher, who, citing the worsening environment enveloping the country, again spoke only on condition of anonymity. "She's a liberal and certainly no racist and is disgusted by what she has had to do."

Greek police send crime victims to neo-Nazi 'protectors' | World news | The Guardian
 
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
29,797
Likes
48,276
Country flag
This is the rise of fascism in Europe every country from Sweden down to Greece
has fascist parties winning seats.
 

LurkerBaba

Super Mod
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
7,882
Likes
8,125
Country flag
Greece's far-right party goes on the offensive

Arm raised in a Nazi-style salute, the leader of Greece's fastest-rising political party surveyed hundreds of young men in black T-shirts as they exploded into cheers. Their battle cry reverberated through the night: Blood! Honour! Golden Dawn!
--

Riding a wave of public anger at corrupt politicians, austerity and illegal immigration, Golden Dawn has seen its popularity double in a few months. A survey by VPRC, an independent polling company, put the party's support at 14 percent in October, compared with the seven percent it won in June's election.



--

Artemis Matthaiopoulos, another Golden Dawn lawmaker, was formerly the bassist for a heavy metal band called Pogrom, which produced songs such as "Speak Greek or Die" and "Auschwitz".

Special Report: Greece's far-right party goes on the offensive | Reuters
 
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
29,797
Likes
48,276
Country flag
History repeating. Economic collapse leading to widespread misery. Minorities become scapegoats.
The majority starts taking a racist position, politiicians agreeeing and Ancient glory days propaganda begins; facism
takes over the nation and usually ends with wars and more misery and a rebuild and apology. This was the pattern with Nazi Germany repeating again.
 
Last edited:

JBH22

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Messages
6,478
Likes
17,797
Great going time to kick undesirable scum out of the country.

Many are just sneaking in and breeding like rabbits.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top