RFP issued for India navy amphibious vessels (LHD or LPD type)

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by plugwater, Oct 5, 2010.

  1. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9,252
    Likes Received:
    11,528
    Location:
    21°N 78°E / 21°N 78°E
    Okay, no problem.
    This is why I'm a military enthusiast. Well, let's leave it all, wanna peace with me?:)
     
  2. HailIndia

    HailIndia Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2017
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    3
    There was no any war happened between us. So, we already have peace between us. There was some misunderstanding between us which we already solved privately. Right?
     
    Indx TechStyle likes this.
  3. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9,252
    Likes Received:
    11,528
    Location:
    21°N 78°E / 21°N 78°E
    :D

    Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.
     
  4. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9,252
    Likes Received:
    11,528
    Location:
    21°N 78°E / 21°N 78°E
    Reliance Defence, L&T may slug it out for Rs 20,000 crore warships contract[​IMG]Private shipyards ABG Shipyard Ltd and Pipavav were in the fray for the contract along with L&T but the acquisition process came to a standstill as the yards ran into financial difficulties.
     
  5. Thrishul

    Thrishul Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    28
    Location:
    India
    Something similar to the LHD

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...n-for-lightning-carriers-brimming-with-f-35bs

    The USMC wants to be able to deploy between 16-20 F-35Bs to its amphibious assault ships, turning them into so called "Lightning Carriers" (CV-L). The new America class (LHA-6) flattops, which do not have a well deck and are more focused on aviation capabilities, could field nearly two dozen of the 5th generation jump jets under the concept.

    F-35S HEAD TO JAPAN AS CHINESE BOMBERS AND CARRIER MAKE BIG MOVESBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
    HERE'S WHAT REALLY HAPPENED WHEN U.S. MARINES BROUGHT F-35BS TO RED FLAGBy Joseph TrevithickPosted in THE WAR ZONE
    COULD THE F-35 BECOME THE BIGGEST ELECTRONIC INTELLIGENCE COLLECTION SYSTEM EVER DEVISED?By Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
    AIRCRAFT CARRIER "BOW PRONGS" AND WHY THEY ARE DISAPPEARINGBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
    HOW TO LAND A FIGHTER ON AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER ON A STORMY NIGHTBy LCDR Joe “Smokin” RuzickaPosted in THE WAR ZONE
    Really, the idea is nothing new. In decades past, "Gator Navy" amphibs were turned into "Harrier Carriers" loaded with dozens of AV-8Bs. This came at the expense of not deploying the usual Air Combat Element dominated by a full range of helicopters. Such a capability begins to encroach on the mission of America's hugely expensive fixed-wing carrier fleet, although Harriers have operated from these ships in the past as well. And still, the Harrier has limited capabilities compared to what the aircraft from a supercarrier's Air Wing can provide.

    [​IMG]
    USN
    USS Bataan being used in the "Harrier Carrier" role for Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003.


    Aside from a reduction in combat radius, the inability to carry 2,000lb class munitions internally and some smaller differences, the F-35B will be just as capable as any fighter flying off the decks of America's supercarriers, or those on land for that matter. Also, the F-35's high-end sensor suite and electronic warfare capabilities make it less dependent on Airborne Early Warning and Control and dedicated electronic attack assets in most threat environments compared to its 4th generation fighter counterparts.

    In essence, the F-35B is the most relevant of the Joint Strike Fighter family as it gives America's eight "other carriers"—the amphibious assault ships—a very high-end multi-role fighter capability that can be used on the first day of a major conflict. Under normal circumstances, like its Harrier forbearers, just six to eight F-35Bs will be deployed aboard one of these ships, but under the "Lightning Carrier" concept this is not the case. I went into this reality in great detail years ago in my piece Seven Things The Marines Have To Do To Make The F-35B Worth The Huge Cost (as a side note, it is amazing how many of my recommendations have been satisfied or are in the process of being satisfied). I also discussed how the Harrier Carrier concept could be adapted to the F-35B to great effect, stating:

    "During multiple conflicts, these Gator Navy flattops have been used as "Harrier Carriers," where dozens of the jump jets were packed aboard for sustained operations. The F-35B will make this concept even more relevant with its ability to accomplish a full range of missions, including taking the first shots of a conflict—in effect tearing down the enemy's surface-to-air missile, aircraft and sensor network barriers so that other, less survivable aircraft can eventually operate over enemy territory in a safer manner.

    The new LHA "America" class of amphibious assault shipswas built with just this in mind, doing away with thetraditional well dock to carry a larger air wing with more fuel and munitions stores. Some concepts exist where a pair of amphibious assault ships work together within a single, albeit larger, Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG). One carrying a couple dozen F-35Bs and the other carrying a few dozen helicopters. Such a concept would allow for a continuous F-35B presence over the battlefield, and would even allow for the ESG to mount fixed wing "alpha strikes," where the majority of the F-35B force prosecutes a set of strategic enemy targets during a single mission, much like a Navy carrier air wing currently is capable of. An ESG configured in this manner is in many ways even more capable than a nuclear carrier's deployed air wing as it also retains an incredibly powerful ground assault capability. This ability to "surge" assets and integrate them directly into a single ESG represents a true multirole flotilla, able to flexibly threaten any foe within hundreds of miles of the ocean, not just via air strikes but also via amphibious or inland assaults.

    Seeing as the F-35B has the potential to almost double America's "first day of war" carrier footprint, a great thing during a time when the nuclear carrier force will most likely continue to shrink, and it will allow an ESG to operate much more independently than ever before, the Marines have to look seriously at maximizing this game changing technology."

    [​IMG]
    USMC
    Now, the USMC in its 2017 Marine Aviation Plan seems to agree, stating:

    "In the 2017-2027 time frame the Marine Corps will possess the majority of naval 5th generation aircraft. By 2025, the Marine Corps will operate185 F-35Bs—enough to equip all seven L-Class ships. While the amphibious assault ship will never replace the aircraft carrier, it can be complementary, if employed in imaginative ways. The CV-L concept has previous been employed(five times) utilizing AV-8B Harriers in a “Harrier Carrier” concept. TheARG/MEU’s mission, and 13 mission essential tasks (METs), will not change; however, a Lightning Carrier, taking full advantage of the amphibious assault ship as a sea base, can provide the naval and joint force with significant access, collection and strike capabilities."

    [​IMG]
    USMC
    Under the Lightning Carrier plan, over 40 sorties across a wide spectrum of air combat missions sets, can be fielded in a single 14 hour period with 16 F-35Bs.

    The thing is, not only could the Lightning Carrier concept take some pressure off America's supercarriers, especially for supporting smaller conflicts, but it can also be mixed and matched with different assets, including embedding it into a supercarrier's own flotilla. In doing so, a Lightning Carrier could drastically augment the 5th generation fighter capacity forward deployed as part of a Carrier Strike Group.

    Currently, the Carrier Air Wing of the future is slated to include one F-35C squadron of roughly 12 jets, and possibly two squadrons for most Air Wings as the 2020s roll on. As such, a LHA configured in "Lightning Carrier" mode could nearly triple the amount of F-35s the Carrier Strike Group has to play with. But really where such a concept shines the most is for operations as part of a larger, more capable and operationally independent Expeditionary Strike Group.

    [​IMG]
    LOCKHEED
    The USMC states that it is likely the Lightning Carrier concept will include a quartet of MV-22 Ospreys equipped as aerial tankers. Although this may take away a small amount of room for F-35Bs, it would be a massive force multiplier, and allow the F-35Bs to fly longer missions and ones that take the jet deeper into enemy territory. It would also add a margin of safety to flight operations and decrease the overall sortie demands on the ship, which are limited compared to their catapult and arresting gear equipped supercarrier counterparts. The V-22 Aerial Refueling System is should hit the fleet within the next year.

    [​IMG]
    BELL
    V-22 Aerial Refueling System prototype (VARS) in action.

    Although the USS America (LHA-6), and to even a greater degree her sister ship, the USS Tripoli, have their decks strengthened and other modifications made to allow them to sustain higher sortie rates of F-35Bs and MV-22s, the existing Wasp class LHDs do not. As such, it is unlikely they could take full advantage of the Lightning Carrier/CV-L concept, at least without more extensive modifications. That's not to say they cannot carry a full load of F-35Bs, but sustaining continuos flight operations at a very high tempo is likely impossible due to the high thermal loads put out by F-35B, and to some degree the MV-22.

    Still, as the Navy struggles with its "carrier gap," and while some, including the author, have called for building smaller, more flexible and more plentifulaircraft carriers, the America class in particular and the "Lightning Carrier" concept is definitely intriguing.
     
    kstriya likes this.
  6. Thrishul

    Thrishul Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    28
    Location:
    India
    the largest vessel in the Royal Navy—it's also the flagship of the fleet. With years to go before the first of the Royal Navy's two Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers become operational, the HMS Ocean—which isn't even 20 years old—is slated for retirement next year, and according to reports she might be sold off for a bargain price to Brazil.


    HMS Ocean is a capable ship. She displaces 21,500 tons, was commissioned in 1998 and was just refit a few years ago. She can carry around 18 helicopters—but usually totes around less than a dozen—of various types, including large Chinook transports to Apache attack helicopters.





    Since the canning of the UK's Harrier force, along with its carriers HMS Illustrious and HMS Ark Royal, HMS Ocean has been the sole air warfare power projection vessel in the Royal Navy's inventory—with Royal Army Air Corps Apache Longbows providing the ship's over-the-horizon striking power. And this capability has been used successfully in combat before.

    Although the UK's Apache force largely wrote the book on deploying the AH-64/AH Mk 1 to sea, HMS Ocean is meant to have a highly flexible air wing that can feature a composite of various cross-service, and even cross-national, helicopters depending on the mission. The ship is also built to execute amphibious assaults. In addition to her baseline crew of nearly 300, with another 200 attached to her air wing, up to 800 Royal Marines can be embarked at one time, along with 40 of their vehicles. The ship also carries four 51.5 foot landing craft (LCVPs) and has extensive command and control capabilities.


    DOD
    US Marines riding HMS Ocean's elevator during multi-national training exercises.

    The Royal Navy gets a pretty big bang for their buck out of the relatively youngHMS Ocean. She can do a lot of things, from anti-submarine warfare to amphibious assault, without the massive logistical footprint of a dedicated aircraft carrier. Above all else, the ship keeps the Royal Navy in the carrier game, which is not just a big deal geopolitically, but it is also significant when it comes to keeping skills needed to operate such a vessel fresh.

    [​IMG]
    MOD
    One of HMS Ocean's four LCVPs. The ship does not have a well deck, although other RN amphibs do. Instead, HMS Ocean lowers the vessels down to the water from storage positions on the sides of her hull.

    But under the MoD's often puzzling defense spending choices, the versatile vessel will be retired next year. Many have called for her to stay in service at least until HMS Queen Elizabeth becomes operational, while others have demanded she be put in reserve for contingency operations. But recently it seems more likely that the ship will be sold. Her young age, updates systems, relatively economic operating costs, and versatility making her an attractive purchase for cash-strapped naval arms with big ideas.

    [​IMG]
    MOD
    HMS Ocean with Apache, Chinook and Merlin helicopters on its deck.

    Brazil in particular appears to be interested in buying the ship. That makes good sense considering their antique aircraft carrier, the Sao Paulo, which was supposed to go through complex overhaul, has now been decommissioned due to its poor shape and the large sum of money it would take to get it back in operation. This leaves the Brazilian Navy without any sort of a flattop for the foreseeable future.

    [​IMG]
    MOD
    HMS Ocean can vary her aircraft compliment widely depending on the mission. Although not designed as an anti-submarine warfare ship, she has acted as one in the past successfully

    Sure, HMS Ocean cannot operate fixed wing aircraft like the Brazil's AF1 Skyhawks, but the need for that capability has been of debatable for some time now. HMS Ocean would provide a good mix of more usable everyday capabilities, like working as an anti-submarine and sea control platform or being able to quickly deploy Brazilian commandos ashore or deploying relief during a natural disaster. It would also work as the centerpiece of Brazil's small but significant amphibious assault flotilla, which is made of a hodgepodge of four second-hand vessels of French, UK and US origin.

    [​IMG]
    ROB SCHLEIFFERT/WIKICOMMONS
    Sao Paulo at sea with Skyhawks aboard during better times.

    Supposedly there is a fixed price offer from Brasilia for the ship for £80.3 million pounds ($100,950,000). That is less than the cost of a single F-35B that will fly from the HMS Queen Elizabeth's deck, and payment for the ship from Brasilia to London may be broken down in installments.

    The Royal Navy has not confirmed that the deal with Brazil is done, but has alluded to the fact that "a number of options are being considered" including selling the vessel to a foreign government.

    [​IMG]
    MOD
    HMS Ocean is not an old or tired vessel. It will have served just 20 years at the time of its retirement and has been kept updated with modern sub-systems.

    Helicopter carriers with amphibious assault capabilities have become somewhat of a hot commodity in recent years, with many navies procuring them with power projection in mind. The topic blasted onto the geopolitical stage in recent years following France's axed deal to provide a pair of Mistral class helicopter landing docks to Russia. Who should have bought the orphaned vessels was up to hot debate in the international press until it was announced that Egypt would be their new owners.

    [​IMG]
    AHMED XIV/WIKICOMMONS
    Egypt's new ENS Gamal Abdel Nasser, one of two Mistral class amphibious assault ship now in Cairo's possession.

    Suggestions that Canada, India, Vietnam, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Singapore, China and even NATO should buy the ships were posited in high-profile ways before the purchase by Egypt was announced. Brazil was also thought to have been an ideal candidate, although this was a couple years ago, when the Brazilian Navy still thought they would bring Sao Paulo back to life.

    We will have to wait and see if any other bidders for HMS Ocean come to the table. A NATO ally would seem to be the ideal buyer forthe ship, as its combat systems, communications and other support systems are meant to interoperate with the alliance's forces. Plus a low selling price point could be justified to the public as a move to enhance NATO's strength overall.

    [​IMG]
    ALLIED JOINT FORCE COMMAND NATO/WIKICOMMONS
    HMS Ocean has served as the centerpiece of many NATO naval exercises, including sailing into the Baltic Sea as part of BALTOPS.

    Then again the UK could just find the funds to operate the ship, at least until they can claim a replacement is active in the form of HMS Queen Elizabeth. The plan also puts into question how the Royal Navy will afford two 65,000 ton class aircraft carriers—and an all-stealth fighter fast-jet contingent to fill their decks—when they seem to be unable or unwilling to fund even a single medium-sized helicopter carrier—one that pulls in aerial assets from across the MoD's inventory.

    Supposedly the budgets are in place to see both Queen Elizabeth class carriers become operational, but it will be interesting to see if HMS Prince of WalesHMS Queen Elizabeth's sister ship—will be sustained in an operational state over the long term. With HMS Ocean long gone by the time HMS Prince of Wales is supposed to become optional, sustaining one large fixed-wing capable carrier and one smaller helicopter carrier, and either putting HMS Prince of Wales in mothballs or selling it off, will not be an option.

    [​IMG]
    AP
    Still years away from being declared operation, the HMS Queen Elizabeth is complete, whileHMS Prince of Wales is far along in its construction.
     
  7. Thrishul

    Thrishul Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    28
    Location:
    India
    "there is a fixed price offer from Brasilia for the ship for £80.3 million pounds ($100,950,000). That is less than the cost of a single F-35B that will fly from the HMS Queen Elizabeth's deck, and payment for the ship from Brasilia to London may be broken down in installments."

    This is the kicker 80 million pounds or 100 million USD + 200 Million for a mid life refit. For 300 Million we get a helecopter carrier for 25 more years.
     
  8. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    10,955
    Likes Received:
    3,059
    It was only designed for a 20 year lifespan. You would spend 3X as much just keeping it operational.
     
  9. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    4,409





    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
     
    TheHurtLocker likes this.
  10. Filtercoffee

    Filtercoffee Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2016
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    136
    Are there chances for an Indian design to be approved over foreign company plans? Helicopters are already in various production slots.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  11. Adioz

    Adioz Irregular member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2015
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Location:
    Bottom of the Andaman sea planting mines for PLAN
    MoD to seek fresh bids from L&T, Reliance for Rs 20,000-cr warship project

     
  12. Adioz

    Adioz Irregular member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2015
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Location:
    Bottom of the Andaman sea planting mines for PLAN
    Someone change the name of this thread to "Case for pocket carriers in Indian Navy". All that was ever discussed in this thread was if the LHD should carry F-35B.:doh:

    Can anyone give me a link to the RFI document for this MRSV programme?

    This is what I want to know:-
     
    aditya10r likes this.

Share This Page