RFP issued for India navy amphibious vessels (LHD or LPD type)

[plugwater]

What are the roles of assault ship and transport dock??

In my understanding the primary role of assault ship is to support the ground troops and also used to transport troops and transport docks are used to move heavy tanks, troops etc. If i am wrong please do correct me.

 

[bengalraider]

Could someone please specify how these new amphibious ships will help Indian Navy? India already has the capability to build amphibious ships. The INS Magar and INS Gharial were built by Hindustan Shipyard Limited and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers. How and in what ways is the Landing Pontoon Dock(s), the new class of ships (that India is going to import from the US) better than the Magar Class ships?

It would be nice to know that the money is well spent and with the sudden escalation of defense deals with the US, it is only natural that a few eyebrows will be raised.

India has never built an LHD or and LPD what we have built in the INS Magar and the INS Gharial are LST's i.e(landing ship tank) there are two key differences between the two

1)as has been rightly pointed out by many in this thread already the displacement of both types of vessel varies greatly
2)the main key difference is the role

LPD/LHD- these ships do not reach the shore themselves they carry landing craft(air cusion or hulled) and helicopters in order to be able to deploy troops and material onto enemy/friendly shores.their main doors are usually in the stern.
LST- a landing ship tank has the ability to beach itself, i.e a LST actually opens it's entire bow onto a beach wherein the tanks and men within can then drive/walk out.a LST has it's main doors in the Bow of the vessel.

INS MAGAR disgorging BMP's onto a beach during an exercise.

an Albion class LPD with it's stern doors open(NOTE TWO LANDING CRAFT INSIDE)

 

[bengalraider]

What are the roles of assault ship and transport dock??

In my understanding the primary role of assault ship is to support the ground troops and also used to transport troops and transport docks are used to move heavy tanks, troops etc. If i am wrong please do correct me.

Simply put the word is helicopters , an assault vessel carries many more choppers than a LPD(hence an assault ship has the designation LHD-landing helicopter dock for assault ships), the assault vessel is designed to disgorge as many troops as quickly as possible while also providing them air cover(by use of S/VTOL aircraft)in order to orchestrate an amphibious assault, while a LPD is mainly used to send more troops and material to shore after a bridgehead has already been established by an amphibious assault(though by itself and LPD can also orchestrate an assault, if provided with land based/carrier based air cover)

for example the mistral or the dokdo are LHD's and assault ships, while the San Antonio or the bulwark are not.(for the record the khanate prefers to use the Tarawa class for amphibious assaults)

 

[wild goose]

Just asking out of curiosity,

Can we relate the INs interest in LPDs to the 'String of Pearls' development?

Need of LPDs in rescue and humanitarian efforts is a minor one, isn't it.

 

[Rage]

I have my doubts about the San Antonio class LPD. These things are huge, twice the size of the next largest LPD and owning them would be a great buy. At 4, it'd would make us the second largest operator of these mammoth ships, after the United States which plans to commission between ten - twelve. But, US shipyards have their hands full with constructing five of these, with another 1-3 planned. So, getting them will take some time.

Besides, at around $1.2 billion for each of these, I don't see how the combined value of 4 plus 4 P-8I Poseidon's will total to $5 billion,

 

[plugwater]

^^ We will build these warships in our shipyards so the cost will come down. Even if it costs 1 billion each the total will be 4*1 billion(warship) + 4*250million(P-8)= 5 billion.

I have a doubt whether these warships comes with all the expeditionary vehicles plus helicopters or only the warship and we to have buy other stuffs separately ?

 

[Sridhar]

Multi-Role Support Ship (MRSS)

The Indian Navy originally desired a LPD configuration for at-sea logistics and humanitarian relief operations. By 2009 it appeared that the Navy developed a requirement for helicopter carriers (LHD) with rear flooding decks to accommodate wheeled/tracked amphibious assault vehicles and LCAC-type assault hovercraft. The MRSS may host at least six medium-lift utility helicopters. The Indian Navy planned to acquire up to three LPH-based multi-role support ships (MRSS)
The Navy is looking for a hybrid design called Multi-Role Support Vessel (MRSV) which is similar in design to the ARMARIS-built Mistral, Hanjin's Dokdo and the GNG's MHD-150. A total of eight companies had proposed designs:

14,500 tons South Korea Hanjin Heavy Industries assault landing ship
15,000 tons Germany ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems MHD-150
16,160 tons Netherlands Schelde ShipbuildingEnforcer LPD
20,000 tons Italy Finantieri LHD
21,300 tons France Armaris Mistral LHD
21,500 tons Spain Navantia Strategic Projection Ship
21,578 tons UK BAE Systems MarineOcean-class LHD
25,000 tons US Raytheon San Antonio-class LPD-17
The Enforcer Series was developed around three basic sizes, based on the vessel's beam. Selection of the most suitable platform configuration is done in close cooperation with the customer by analysis of the Concept of Operations and functional requirements. The 14,000 ton RNLN LPD "Rotterdam" was the first of the Enforcer Series, developed in close cooperation with the Royal Netherlands Navy (RNLN). This was followed by 4 16,160 ton RN LSD (A) Bay Class vessels and the RNLN Rotterdam-class LPD "Johan de Witt". The well deck arrangement varies between the Rotterdam and the Johan de Witt.

Multi-Role Support Ship (MRSS)

 

[A.V.]

the point that rage has raised is very important regarding who will build these ships because yet uncorfirmed if its the US then their yard lines are full , if russian or french they are over full and indian yards are also full for good 8-10 years we need to start a new production area and line for these or else its just a good buy on paper because wont see those before 20 years as of now and by that time things would change drastically

 

[plugwater]

Can L&T shipyard near Chennai build these vessels ? Because they are begging MoD for shipbuilding contracts.

 

[Sridhar]

credit: SineJustitia ofMP.nethttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?33362-SineJustitia

 

[StealthSniper]

I was wondering, if Cochin shipyard can build a indigenous aircraft carrier, then I think (because of our internal Navy design bureau) we should be able to design our own LPD using design elements from the INS Jalashwa and maybe foreign consultants. I think making an indigenous LPD is not as far fetched as people might think.

 

[Rage]

^^ We will build these warships in our shipyards so the cost will come down. Even if it costs 1 billion each the total will be 4*1 billion(warship) + 4*250million(P-8)= 5 billion.

I have a doubt whether these warships comes with all the expeditionary vehicles plus helicopters or only the warship and we to have buy other stuffs separately ?

Is that what the EOI says? Building it at our shipyards would entail transfer of technology, which given the Advanced Enclosed Mast / Sensors technology and some of the new C4I and CS-reduction measures they've got on there is a high no-no.

I'd rather think, if they were going to sell us these LPD's, they'de make 'em themselves.

If the deal saw domestic production, it'd involve a huge cost for T-o-T as well.

 

[pmaitra]

Is that what the EOI says? Building it at our shipyards would entail transfer of technology, which given the Advanced Enclosed Mast / Sensors technology and some of the new C4I and CS-reduction measures they've got on there is a high no-no.

I'd rather think, if they were going to sell us these LPD's, they'de make 'em themselves.

If the deal saw domestic production, it'd involve a huge cost for T-o-T as well.

It is quite likely that the ToT will be expensive. Moreover, India will need to have facilities available for building these huge ships. Do we have these facilities? I do not know and I don't think so (please correct me if I am wrong).

Setting up a facility will involve great cost in addition to ToT. Thereafter will come the cost of building these ships themselves.

Some one with some good idea of costs may come up with an estimate. I believe there is a Parliamentary Standing Committee that will oversee and come up with their own assessment of the financial projections. Parliamentary Standing Committees exist for most ministries, including that of defense. I wonder if anyone could provide a link?

 

[Sridhar]

20,000-crore boost for Navy's snooping power


The LPD project will be executed under the "buy and make" category of the Defence Procurement Procedure , which basically involves licensed indigenous manufacture in collaboration with a foreign manufacturer.

"At least two of the LPDs will be constructed at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) at Visakhapatnam, which was transferred from the shipping ministry to the defence ministry last year to meet national security requirements of building strategic vessels," said a source.

Rs 20,000-cr booster for Navy's sea lift, snooping capabilities - The Times of India

 

[Rage]

It is quite likely that the ToT will be expensive. Moreover, India will need to have facilities available for building these huge ships. Do we have these facilities? I do not know and I don't think so (please correct me if I am wrong).

Setting up a facility will involve great cost in addition to ToT. Thereafter will come the cost of building these ships themselves.

Some one with some good idea of costs may come up with an estimate. I believe there is a Parliamentary Standing Committee that will oversee and come up with their own assessment of the financial projections. Parliamentary Standing Committees exist for most ministries, including that of defense. I wonder if anyone could provide a link?

pmaitra,

please see Sridhar bhai's post above.

Without having looked at the post, I'd say Hindustan Shipyard Limited, Vishakapatnam and CSL, Kochi were two naval facilities that'd come to mind. Some retooling would certainly be involved (probably extensive), but these are large enough and experienced enough to handle the project, in conjunction with a foreign partner.

 

[pmaitra]

pmaitra,

please see Sridhar bhai's post above.

Without having looked at the post, I'd say Hindustan Shipyard Limited, Vishakapatnam and CSL, Kochi were two naval facilities that'd come to mind. Some retooling would certainly be involved (probably extensive), but these are large enough and experienced enough to handle the project, in conjunction with a foreign partner.

Thanks Rage. I see that HSL has been transferred to the Ministry of Defense from Ministry of Shipping. That was a good one. Now we can see some action. If we already have the facilities to build such huge ships, then that is only good for India. I think we need to concentrate on all our facilities.

Let me list all our facilities below for everyone's convenience:

Public sector

• Alcock Ashdown, Bhavnagar
• Cochin Shipyard Limited
• Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers
• Goa Shipyard LimitedGoa Shipyard
• Hindustan Shipyard Limited
• Hooghly Dock and Port Engineers Limited, Kolkata
• Mazagon Dock Limited
• Naval Dockyard (Bombay)
• Naval Dockyard (Vishakhapatnam)
• Shalimar Works, Kolkata

Private sector

• ABG Shipyard Limited
• Adani Shipyard
• Bharati Shipyard Limited
• Alang Marina, Bhavnagar
• Bristol Boats, Aroor
• Chowgule & Co., Shipbuilding Division, Goa
• Corporated Consultancy, Kolkata
• Dempo Shipbuilding and Engineering Pvt. Ltd., Goa
• East Coast boat Builders, Kakinada
• Elite Shipyard, Veravel
• Empreiteiros Gerais, Goa
• Fabmarine,Cochin,Kerala
• Geeta Engineering
• L&T Shipyard
• Mandovi Drydocks, Goa
• Modest Infrastructure Limited, Bhavnagar, Gujarat
• Navgathi Marine Design & Constructions Pvt. Ltd.
• Northstar Shipyard, Mumbai
• NN Shipbuilders, Mumbai
• Oceanic Shipyard Limited, Dhamara, Orissa
• Pipavav Shipyard Limited, Pipavav, Gujarat
• PS & Company, Vishakhapatnam
• Rajapur Shipyards Pvt. Ltd., Maharashtra
• Shoft Shipyard Pvt Ltd
• Seablue Shipyard, Kochi
• Sesa Goa Shipbuilding Division
• Tebma Shipyards Ltd, Chennai
• Vipul Shipyard, Goa (merged with ABG Shipyard)
• Wadia Boat Builders, Billimora
• Western India Shipyard Limited, Goa

Source: List of shipbuilders and shipyards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bengalraider]

I would like to point out that there are faster alternatives for deployment of tanks and armoured vehicles on enemy shores, the task that a landing ship is supposed to do. The best example would be the Ekranoplan.

Some images showing it (1) cruising on the surface of the sea, (2) reaching the shore, (3) on land and (4) deploying vehicles:

View attachment 1826 View attachment 1828 View attachment 1827 View attachment 1825

Shown above is the A-90 Orlyonok (Орлёнок).

References:
Ground effect vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
THE EKЯANOPLAN

The ekranoplane concept as developed by the soviets is no longer in use except for small craft(boeing and beriev both plan to bring back the thnks but there's been little progress till date), simply put the ekranoplane is never going to be as cost effective as a Large LHD/LPD.

 

[bengalraider]

as far as the class of LPD's India should go for i beleive that instead of going for a San Antonio class vessel we should insted be looking at cheaper LPD's of the Singapore navy Endurance class and the Indonesian Makassar class both these vessels are much cheapre while being comparable in role to the san antonio(i know the endurance and makassar both are much smaller). we could potentially get many more ships for the same amount of cash. an endurance class costs roughly 200 million singapore dollars while an makassar would be roughly 150mil $ u.s.

 

[StealthSniper]

 

[pmaitra]

The ekranoplane concept as developed by the soviets is no longer in use except for small craft(boeing and beriev both plan to bring back the thnks but there's been little progress till date), simply put the ekranoplane is never going to be as cost effective as a Large LHD/LPD.

The Ekranoplan was scrapped because of political reasons. The inventor Rostislav Evgenievich Alexeyev was supported by Nikita Khrushchev and when Leonid Brezhnev came to power, he tried to put most things and people related to Khrushchev on the back-burner.

Moreover, I doubt the Ekranoplan was ever intended to be cost effective. It's idea is quick deployment of armoured vehicles and troops and serves as an amphibious landing craft very similar to what a landing ship tries to achieve.

Finally, I am not sure cost is ever an issue for defense projects. If we talk about cost-effectiveness, then one could argue that we should not use 4WD vehicles, tracked vehicles, turbine engines and instead of putting heavy armour on tanks, build them like a Honda Civic so that their weight is reduced and they are more fuel efficient and cheaper to manufacture.

Let me quote some advantages and disadvantages; and it's quite clear that an Ekranoplan is more fuel efficient than an aeroplane and hence more cost effective to operate and at the same time way faster than any landing ship ever can be:

Advantages and disadvantages

A ground effect craft may have better fuel efficiency than an equivalent aircraft flying at low level due to the close proximity of the ground, reducing lift-induced drag. There are also safety benefits for the occupants of the craft in flying close to the water as an engine failure will not result in severe ditching. However, this particular configuration is difficult to fly even with computer assistance. Flying at very low altitudes, just above the sea, is dangerous if the craft banks too far to one side while making a small radius turn.
A takeoff must be into the wind, which in the case of a water launch, means into the waves. This creates drag and reduces lift. Two main solutions to this problem have been implemented. The first was used by the Russian Ekranoplan program which placed engines in front of the wings to provide more lift. The Caspian Sea Monster had eight such engines, some of which were not used once the craft was airborne. A second approach is to use some form of an air-cushion to raise the vehicle most of the way out of the water, making take-off easier. This is used by German Hanno Fischer in the Hoverwing (successor to the Airfisch ground effect craft), which uses some of the air from the engines to inflate a skirt under the craft in the style of a sidewall hovercraft.

Source: Ground effect vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia