Reservation in India - It's time for Evaluation

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Sabir, Oct 1, 2009.

  1. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    Reservation in India- its time for evaluation​

    In a democratic and secular country where the citizens are supposed to be treated with equality, the Reservation system has given an impetus to ‘cast system’ to stay for ever (may be the table has been turned this time) where our primary aim should be to abolish it. Perhaps it was assumed that all from backward classes are economically backward and all from so called forward classes are economically affluent, which is not the fact at all. There are elites among the declared backward classes too and benefit of Reservation is being lapped up by them. There is hardly any evidence of improvement in situation of those who were actually the objective of reservation. Reserving seats in organizations without any attempt to improve the situation in grass root level may create a lacuna in the system itself. Even today if you go through any employment journal you can find large number of empty posts in Government organizations. It clearly indicates how the government failed to provide primary education facility to bring those deprived people in a level where Reservation is waiting for them.

    Government should evaluate whether this system has achieved its objective by any percentage or not and there must be concrete plan to phase out the system as it is believed that this system will improve the condition of deprived class. Unfortunately there is no long term policy to phase out Reservation. If the implementation can not narrow the gap between two classes in several decades then what is the logic in implementing it. Spread of education, economical development and employment opportunity in all corners of the country can eliminate the abominable cast system may be slowly but surely. Unfortunately our scholars’ chose a short-cut through Reservation to bring justice for the backward classes and soon that procedure was hijacked by dirty cast based politics. So even after two decades there is no proper evaluation of what we have achieved through Reservation.

    Here in this thread we are going to discuss whether we believe this existing system can really help the backward classes or it is time to think for alternatives. And of course what could be proper alternatives in your opinion to bring equality in terms of social and economical points of views.
     
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  3. Goodperson

    Goodperson Regular Member

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    After success of Chandrayan and finding water Indians go overboard they decide to to do further reseach and launch space ship vehicle and send 100 people to moon.

    NASAa got wind of it and ask Mr Obama for funding he gives call to Manmohan about the research India is planning to do with 100 scientists. He wants to know the team composition.

    Manmohan redirects the question to Arjun he says forget research I am planing to send following

    1) 50% of SC/ST
    2) 30% OBC
    3) 15% Loyal Congress members including Gandhi family
    4) 5% Erstwhile Congressmen from other parties

    He cannot accommodate scientists as their is no space left in the spaceship.
     
  4. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    you are spot on sabir. when the system was put in place post independance it did matter 'cos of the situation that existed then. it is not the case any more. tables have turned as you rightly put it. it is high time 'economic status' is taken for cosideration rather than 'caste' thus bringing the correct meaning to "equality". or they can adopt affirmative action as the west does.
    btw a good and worthy thread.
     
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  5. NSG_Blackcats

    NSG_Blackcats Member of The Month OCTOBER 2009 Senior Member

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    Whether we like it or not the facts remains even after 62 years of our independence there is wide spread discrimination in the name of cast in many parts of India. Scheduled Cast (SC) and Scheduled Tribes (ST) are exploited for so many years. They are still deprived of visiting religious places. SCs and STs are not given the basic minimum facility so how can we say whether they are talented or not. SCs and STs do not have even money to support 2 times meal a day (I am not taking about 10% of SC who are economically sound). So how can they provide better education to their children? Now we need to have a reality check. How many government run school are there is tribal dominated areas (There is no private school in tribal areas. You may find a RSS run School [Saraswati Sishu Mandir])? Even if there is a government school in a tribal area where is the teacher?

    But even though there is wide scale discrimination against SCs and STs I am not in favour of reservation. The reason being cast is not well defined in many other religion (Islam and Christianity...Etc). So we cannot provide reservation to deprived section of Muslim and Christian population. We cannot have separate quota of reservation for Muslims and Christians as it is against our constitution. By providing quota we are discouraging talented students. Now we are even having quota in Service and promotion also. Reservation is now used as political tools. Now many casts want them to be listed as OBC (Other Backward Classes) so that they can benefit from reservation. Now we have 27% reservation for OBC. Government is also thinking of implementing reservation in private sector.

    I am confused. I do not know how we are going to uplift millions of tribal who are living below poverty line and provide them quality education. I will like to hear from my fellow members. I am in support of providing reservation in terms of economic backwardness. This will help in providing some level playing field to millions irrespective of their cast and religion. But I am still confused about how we should go about it.

    There is a place in Orissa called Titlagarh. Where max temperature during summer goes up to 51 deg C. Tribal of this area make an earning for them by breaking stone in this heat. My concern is how we can improve the standard of living of these people.

    Political bashing is the easiest thing. Many people do this out of their own frustration. In this country everybody is an expert. We Indians like to talk a lot. But there are people who are working behind the scene instead of talking. Here is a man who is trying to make a difference. Dr. Achyuta Samanta (Founder KIIT Group of Institutions, KIIT University and Kalinga Institute of Social science.)

    About Kalinga Institute of Social Science
     
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  6. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    I am agreed with NSG. I should add that there was no fault in identifying the backward classes as they were really deprived from ages. My objection is government’s attempt to take an unproven short cut route to solve the issue and that is risking irk of a large part of Indian population. And of course the quota system is against the idea of equality. Even I don’t support any division or special treatments in terms of Reservation for economically back ward people too. Just think what the people of backward classes lack (I am saying about majority of them).
    1) Education- yes, there are not enough schools and colleges in remote areas and many of these families can not afford schooling for their children. But is it so difficult for government to spend for building more schools and colleges and pay for total schooling of the students. In my opinion it is to be done in every corner in the country and for students of all classes and tribes. And careful measures should be taken to maintain the standard of government schools and colleges wherever these are situated.
    2) Standard of living- It is a shame for us to witness situation like Kalahandee or Amlashole where our people starve to death. Yes, those are areas where agriculture is not developed and no proper way of living is available. Now how these people will be benefited by the quotas. Government has the power to undertake different infrastructural projects through government spending (haven’t we read about it in Economics) to provide employment for unskilled labors and boost up local economies. And with infrastructures (Roads and transports, irrigation, power, hospitals etc) available in future that can pave the way of future development. One of our neighbour undertaking projects even to irrigate desert and building up infrastructures in barren areas to attract future investments. We should take some lessons from them too.
    3) Other amenities will keep on appearing gradually anywhere if first two objectives can be achieved.
     
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  7. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

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    I find one rather bizarre thing in my work place. There are ppl with 100% hindu names after hindu gods. They all enjoy SC/ST benifits. whats bizarre is , all of them are fanatic christians and practise christianity and are called converted christians. when i enquired about this, a colleague of mine quipped, if they specify christianity as their religion in the record books,they are not considered as SC/ST. so inorder not to loose all the quota benefits,they resort to this kind of immoral cheating.There is no law to catch such polished thieves. Reservations should be applicable to those ppl suffering in small villages,
    not to the ppl ,who are stinking rich.such ppl are officially downtrodden,but unofficially not so! India,oh!my dear country where are you going?
     
  8. zolpidam

    zolpidam Regular Member

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    Reservation in 1950 was implemented for upgrading of socially backward people of India. and initially it was only for 10 years . But even today after 60 year of Independence We have increased it to 49 % and still going on .
    It it self showing even after 60 year of its implementation we are not able to achieve the expected result .This itself is a big failure .
    Today who is getting benefit from this policy . Only the creamy layer which is very less percentage. while rest of other people are still thriving for there basic life needs. Most of them even cannot afford to go to Primary school what is the usefulness of reservation for them at graduate or post graduate level. The only thing we require today is to expand the basic infrastructure and to give basic needs at primary level irrespective of cast system .
    Even in last 60 year no government has ever made any committee to review implication that how many of them are benefited , how many are still thriving for basic needs. They have mandal commission but they don't have a single committee to review the effectiveness of mandal
    The truth is this is totally a political move which every one know and no one is going to get benefit from this reservation policy on large scale . Today only few families are getting advantage of it , there uncle , parents , son , daughter , sisters , brothers all are IAS , Doctors or Engineers but most of families still riding rikshaw or pulling a cart.
     
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  9. corpus

    corpus Regular Member

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    i cannot agree with you completely........... there may be reservation in primary education or even in secondary education as these r our fundamental rights. however in higher education in merit based admission criteria one cannot have reservations.
     
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  10. RPK

    RPK Indyakudimahan Senior Member

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    In my opinion this is the time to make changes in the reservation. the reservation should not based on the caste system it should based on the economic status of the family.
     
  11. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    Sorry, Can't understand which part you are talking about....:viannen_51: I said deprived people or area should be recognised and opportunirty should be provided irrespective of Cast, Tribe etc.....no Reservation is required then.

    BTW, Why there should be Reservation in Primary and Secondary secondary education? :thumbs_thmbdn:Everyone should go to school. There are Reservation in higher studies too like during admission of Engineering and Medical colleges. I am in favour of abolishing it. They can do well without Reservation if Gvt take care of their basic improvement.
     
  12. SixSigma1978

    SixSigma1978 Regular Member

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    Its time to end the current system of reservations. When you start getting QUOTAS WITHIN QUOTAS - you know something has gone very wrong!!
    Not to mention the HIGHEST insult the nation can suffer at the hands of the politicians who are using quotas for Divide and Rule. Muslim reservations!! Oh god - anyone getting Deja Vu? did the British did not successfully divide Hindus and Muslims and led us to the odd relationship the communities now have? Where will you accommodate 10% more? Can't be within the 50%!! Tamil Nadu is at 70% - if they add 10% more - you can kiss any form of merit good bye!

    When you think our politicians cannot fall any lower - they surprise you by DOING JUST THAT!!
     
  13. rcscwc

    rcscwc Tihar Jail Banned

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    Muslim and xian reservation, that too on castes? Can you be more ridiculous?

    Sachchar did a survey of muslims in govt. This Kahachchar found that military has under-representation of muslims. Oh My God. He did not survry sports scene!! Not one out of 22 Indian Grandmasters is a muslim?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
  14. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    First of all the ideal situation would be that reservation is done only on the basis of econmic backwardness. I am particularly against this concept of OBC reservation. God knows what havoc the 2011 census with caste will play on the political landscape.

    However, what we should have is a strong Equal Oppurtunity Comission that encourages government and private sector to hire people from different background and help them to come up with their own policy of hiring a mixed workforce without impinging on their quality process. Many countries in the west have this system where people of say native american or aboriginal background are given priority or people of non-english speaking background are given prirority but there are no quotas to meet. So the company or government is under to pressure to meet quotas but still can try to be proactive to have a proper mix of male-female and people of different liguistic and cultural backgrounds.

    The Dalit and Tribal reservation is probably alright though there should still be an economic backwardness check as these two communties tend to be at the bottom of the society. Similarly, in the current setup, the reservation of SC Muslims or Christians is quite valid given the history. Both religions are the only ones left out from the massive uplifment among SC communties that has happened in the last 60 years. It is also pertinent to note that from 1930-1950, SC reservation was given to people of all faiths including Muslims and Christians. So having a SC reservation phenonmenon where only Muslims and Christians are excluded on the basis of their faith even though they make a small group doesn't really make any sense.

    And as far as I know, except the BJP no party has been against this. NDA allies like JD(U) and SAD have publicly come out in support of this. Nitish Kumar has also strongly supported this.

    Some reasons raised against this usually are
    (1) Other Dalits (i.e. Sikhs,hindus, Buddhists ) will lose out. But the fact is that Muslim and Christian Dalits make a tiny part of the population. Muslim Dalits number around 0.8% of muslim population while Christians around 9% of their population. Comapres to Dalits of other religions they are quite small and would hardly make an impact. Besides Dalits of other faits have had a 60 year exclusive run.
    (2) That Christians and Muslims don't have the caste system. While this is true, caste system has been known to be a more of a social phenomenon rather than just religious. Infact, neither does Buddhism or Sikhism endorse the caste system and Vendantists and a section of Hindus also regard caste system as against the Vedas and not part of Hinduism.
    So the point is to empower the weaker sections so that they can take part in building the society and live with dignity and respect
    (3) Reservations will divide people like before independance. This is a very simplistic view. We are talking about 6-10 million community of Christian and Muslim Dalits who have had no oppurtunites unlike their Hindu Sikh or Buddhist counterparts to advance in their life. By improving their economic life, they would feel more a part of the India growth story rather than cause "division" so to speak.


    However, I don't think that SC Muslims and Christians will be sucessful in getting this anytime soon because it will require a consitutional amendment. The major national parties, Congress and BJP don't look to keen either on this.

    From the 2006 NSSO survey
    Religion Scheduled Caste Scheduled Tribe
    Buddhism 89.50% 7.40%
    Christianity 9.00% 32.80%
    Sikhism 37.0% 0.90%
    Hinduism 22.20% 9.10%
    Zoroastrianism - 15.90%
    Jainism - 2.60%
    Islam 0.80% 0.50%
     
  15. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    Ejaz Reservation must be continued as it is in india with a few changes.Reservation based on economic conditions must be introduced implicitly for each caste category.This will skim away the creamy layer in all communities.If not for Reservation there would have been civil war in India
     
  16. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    Reservation for backward castes has done wonders in Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu Ejaz
     
  17. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I agree more or less with your view JPraveen.

    What I am saying is that SC/ST reservation should stay with economic backwardness checks.

    And then open the rest of the reservation space for all communities, OBCs, upper castes, general e.t.c. and only use economic backwardness as criteria. Restricting to OBC and then subcategories in OBC just furustrates the general applicants even though their economic situation might be worse than OBCs
     
  18. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    Ejaz the malaise of caste is hard to describe most of them caste is not only a social problem but also an economic problem.So the current set-up is fine but reservation based on economic norms must be introduced in Scheduled castes and Tribes ...Implicitly... I agree with that.Ejaz for most Upper castes reservation is not necessarily applicable most of them are fine economically
     
  19. S.A.T.A

    S.A.T.A Senior Member Senior Member

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    While i support affirmative actions,including reservations,in order to uplift,socially and as a consequence economically,certain sections of the Hindu community,who following age old communal traditions had been left out on the low rungs of the social order.It cannot be denied that A large swathe of Hindu society has positively exploited the opportunities availed to them through the affirmative programmes to improve their lot.What need to be curbed the unreasonableness which has creeped into the system,where the quantum of resource made available to the backward communities,through such programmes,is not proportionate to the socio-economic disadvantage faced by these communities,the original spirit of the affirmative progamme must restored.There is alo no doubt that the the affirmative measures will have to gradually phased out,it cannot be reduced to a cast-in-stone constitutional principle.

    Extending this affirmative measures to communities part of Non Hindu religions,is a complete non starter and fundamentally a ridiculous idea.The measures where part of an internal dialogue within the larger Hindu society,where social discrimination existed as a part of the Hindu social structure and hence the need to reverse them.When an individual leaves such a social structure,he is positively free of any relevant social discrimination,hence any discrimination he/she faces in socio-economic terms,cannot be hoisted on the Hindu community and reasons must sought elsewhere.If any reservation exist for people adhering to non Hindu religious moorings,then they must be amended to accommodate the concerns of such individuals.
     
  20. S.A.T.A

    S.A.T.A Senior Member Senior Member

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    No state can afford to reserve national resources simply on the basis of general economic backwardness of the population of the country,such a premise is fundamentally flawed and will not be economically sustainable.affirmative actions are not meant to alleviate economic backwardness,rather it is a measure intended to ameliorate any existing social condition which unfairly prevents an individual or community from alleviate his/their economic backwardness.
     
  21. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

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    It is a sin to be born as a Brahmin with middle and lower middle class economic backgrounds in this country!!! They do not have neither money nor power and most of them settle as purohits performing marriages,shraddhas and most of the girls hailing from villages end up as spinsters due to lack of money and education !!!I have seen many ppl belonging to sc/sT communities practicing Christianity with Hindu names after Lord Balaji and other Hindu Gods. In their personal records, they record their religion falsely as Hindu ,to avail SC/ST reservation benefits, even after converting to Christianity!!! No body punishes them!!!An Engineer who works with me has 69.8% and he belongs to Brahmin community and another Engineer belonging to SC/ST has 60%. when notification came for selection to higher grade,the Brahmin Engineer got disqualified by 0.2%,as the cutoff for forward caste was 70% and 55% for SC/ST. The Brahmin boy simply lost the selection and he became junior to his own batch mate by four years!!!Untouchablity and all that bunkum doesn't exist in the mindset of a poor brahmin!!! its practised by cash rich landlords belonging to other communities. Then why punish a Brahmin?
     

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