Replacement for Mi-24: The JV solution

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by arnabmit, Sep 13, 2014.

  1. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    Mi-24 is about to retire, and there is no sustainable replacement in sight.

    Apache Longbow cannot be the replacement just due to the sheer cost factor and lack of High-Altitude capabilities.

    My solution would be a JV between HAL & Kamov to create a new heavy attack helicopter based on the Ka-50.

    The new one would have the following differences with the Ka-50
    • Tandem cockpit for 2 crew
    • Digital glass cockpit
    • Nose mounted integrated Target Acquisition and Designation Sight, CCD & Night Vision Sensor
    • Rigid rotors with less gap between the upper and lower rotors
    • Mast mounted Fire Control Radar
    • Chin mounted 30mm autocannon, slaved either to HMD or to the TADS
    • Service ceiling of 6000+ meters, instead of the current 5500m
    • Additional version with folding rotors & stub wings for upcoming IN LHDs
     
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  3. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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  5. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    Yes, it was made for Turkey, right?

    Just add this type of rigid rotors to it and basic airframe is ready:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Then add the Nose mounted integrated Target Acquisition and Designation Sight, CCD & Night Vision Sensor:
    [​IMG]

    And this mast mounted FCR:
    [​IMG]

    And Chin mounted 30mm autocannon:
    [​IMG]

     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2014
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  6. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    This layout is energy inefficient, but simple, and the structure can be made more rugged. Normally, a helicopter's forward motion is not regulated by the rear rotor. It is regulated by the varying pitch of the main rotor blades.

    Imagine you are looking at a helicopter from the top, and the locus of the outer edge of the rotor blade makes a circle. The pitch is higher in the rear semi-circle, and the pitch is lesser in the front semi-circle. This will try to slightly lift the rear of the helicopter up, and the helicopter will have a nose down stance. At this point, the rotor pumps in air downwards, and also backwards, and thus the helicopter moves forward. This pitch-varying mechanism is complicated, and to keep it simple, the forward moving function was taken out, and a dedicated rotor was added in the back, as shown in the picture above, which has its axis parallel to the fuselage axis.

    The tradition rear rotor blade, which is perpendicular to the fuselage axis, however, performs a different function in single main rotor blade helicopter, that is counter the turning moment of the rotor blades, which is eliminated in contra-rotating helicopters.

    P.S.: Yes, it was designed for Turkey, but didn't enter production.
     
  7. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    Please check my updated/edited post. I was talking about the main rotors, not the pusher rotor.

    Yes, the pitch, roll, yaw movements are due to the swashplate(s) of the main rotor(s) and altitude control is with the collective.

     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2014
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  8. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    AH-64 are being procured to replace MI-24, The manufacturing speed of Boeing is faster than anything that we are going to procure and put in service ..

    Over this LCH which will be backbone of attack helicopters, Will be delivering TD-3 this year ..

    About Attack Helo operating at +6000 meters will be a attack variant of LUH ..

    ==============

    It will take time and we must have patience ..

     
  9. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    I would like AH-64E to be a stop-gap solution till the time HAL creates HCH to complement LCH. If a total of 500 LCH are produced, atleast 200 HCH should be produced as well.

    The solution I am proposing (JV based on Ka-50-2) is for HAL HCH.

    LCH can operate at 6000m, so should HCH. Ka-50 can do 5500m as it is.
     
  10. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    I don't know why we should go for 3 different dedicated attack choppers.

    Specially for high altitude operations LCH will be there anyway.

    We can develop something with them here in India, if they are happy.

    But the numbers won't be much for another attack helo.

    And it won't be viable in terms of cost to develop a new chopper in India for such small numbers.

    Instead better go for this one........http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-aviation/63397-mil-mi-38-successor-mi-17-a.html

    Something bigger than Dhruv and can go at such high altitude.

    Better get the option of Canadian engine with it.
     
  11. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    There is no need for HCH, KA-50 can do perhaps 6000ms but with what payload compare to LCH which is design to operate in those altitudes ..

    Russia is no India, And we know this from bitter experience for T-90 saga ..

     
  12. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    We have developed LCH so we should take a step forward and go for HCH... HCH will be force multiplier and having one made by India will be better....

    Russia is not India T90 saga true sir but on other hand we have brahmos also... FGFA wud have also been a good example if "we" have not had left away the opportunity...Ie leaving our work share....

    "We can develop something with them here in India, if they are happy." who are they in this staTEMENT? Why Canadian engine?

    how are you determining the production numbers 500 LCH then 200HCH?
    we wont be needing HCH for next few years we are already getting LCH in and US deals are also finalised... so we have time to develope it own our own without JV...

    LCH will be back bone when? are we expecting any more delays now ? wat is the realistic time frame for induction of LCH?
    LUH attack variant is it feasible ..... and what time of armament will it have.... at that height will it be possible for LUH to attack?
     
  13. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    LCH is more than enough for the needs of Army and Air-forces even Navy, HCH concept won`t bring any change to the forces which LCH already serving, Single platform with multiple utility & roles is the future ..

    LCH will have its TD-3 prototype soon by this year, Army wanted LUH attack version to operate at high altitudes much like Rudra but even higher ceiling than Rudra ..

     
  14. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    i believe when u say LCH is enough u r including Apache and Rudra along with it.....

    HCH and LCH hve different features and they will have there own strategic importance.... so u think in the next 10 years its req will not arise?
     
  15. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Rudra is a stop gap until LCH available in mass and its design to operate over high altitudes, AH-64 purchase was made to replace aging MI-25/35 fleet and to operate over thar and most of western sector until LCH available in Mass,LCH is the gunship which can operate without any modifications in all terrains of India with full efficiency, Nor Rudra or AH-64 can operate in different terrain without modifications, For example >>

    1. To Operate AH-64 over High-altitude one may need to reduce the payload ( Fuel + ammo ) or balance as per its task over terrain ..

    2. Rudra is not a pure Gunship , It is not design to conduct anti-Armour operations deep into enemy zone which in case of Thar ..


     
  16. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    It was for Russia, about Mil-38 helicopter and this helicopter has two options for its powerplant.

    Mil Mi-38 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Klimov TV7-117V or Pratt & Whitney Canada PW127/TS turboshaft.

    My choice is P & W Canada. (P&WC: PW127)
     
  17. Punya Pratap

    Punya Pratap Regular Member

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    P & W Canada is still suffering from the 75 Million US$ fine they had to fork out along with Hamilton Sundstrand for the Engine Control Software it allegedly passed on for Z 10 to United Technologies.

    It just might be a case of "once bitten twice shy" for P&W !!
     
  18. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    By this are we saying that LCH is better than Apache AH-64 for INDIA?
    If yes....
    :bhangra::bhangra::bhangra::bhangra::bhangra::bhangra::bhangra:
     
  19. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    :thumb:
    Not having much idea about it...

     
  20. jackprince

    jackprince Turning into a frog Senior Member

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    Wrong. In western front AH-64D would run havoc and much much better than LCH, but in northern or north-eastern it will struggle. LCH is specifically designed as 'Light' to operate in northern and NE region.
     
  21. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    Da I didnt claim LCH is better than AH-64 .... I said its better option for India which ur point itself proved... how am i wrong??????
    As LCH will be equally deadly at each and every front.....
    One platform at all fronts.....
     

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