Reforming Hinduism

Iamanidiot

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You identify Endogamy (correctly IMO) as the cause that supports Rigidity to Caste identity and yet you say Inter Caste marriages would do nothing to dismantle the system .

Could you please clarify your stand regarding this matter ?
Inter caste marriages will bring new Jathi types to the fore.Inter caste marriages are not nouveau in India they have been happening since eons spawning new jathis.As Energon said Urbanization is a good solution but more is needed to it
 

Cliff@sea

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Getting rid of caste based surnames should alleviate this problem to an extent?
Impractical Solution . . To a large extant . . .

Which authority do you think would find itself empowered enough to abolish them anyway ??

Even if there were such an authority which can enforce such a abolition . . . Society would inadvertently find a way to subvert such an artificial imposition.
 

Iamanidiot

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Getting rid of caste based surnames should alleviate this problem to an extent?
This did not help much in South T.N the only place where the most brutal caste wars happen in India in a different league
 

LurkerBaba

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Impractical Solution . . To a large extant . . .

Which authority do you think would find itself empowered enough to abolish them anyway ??

Even if there were such an authority which can enforce such a abolition . . . Society would inadvertently find a way to subvert such an artificial imposition.
I know it'll be difficult. Sikhism tried the same with the generic "Singh" surname, but people now have reverted back to their caste names.

And such a thing is already happening on a smaller scale. Why do you think may people have "Kumar" as their surnames ?
 

Energon

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IMHO Its the Lower Caste Hindu who need to realize that themselves. . .
Lower Caste Hindus proclaim it loudly but the self realization is missing which is why they want others to realise.

and they also need to realize that its ultimately their own realizations that'll make a
difference to their lives not someone else's

Playing the victim card too long is going to prove self destructive
I think you're oversimplifying this issue perhaps out of frustration, which would be totally understandable. If you look at numerous models around the world involving rehabilitation of segments of society that were systematically broken and oppressed for multiple generations you'll see that the picture is extremely complex.

I'll refer to the model I'm most familiar with, which is the Blacks in the US. Understandably many people angrily say that slavery no longer exists and blacks are just lazy or what have you and playing the victim card... but this isn't exactly true. Slavery may have ended but it inculcated some highly pernicious cultural qualities of which the effects are felt to this day. It also makes the community highly susceptible to problems, which is why it will take many generations and a lot of hard work from either side to resolve these issues.

This task will probably be a lot harder in India. What makes matters worse is that the political class are part of the problem instead of the solution because they institute piss poor populist policies for votes which increases the hostility between the upper and lower castes and is just counterproductive overall .
 

Cliff@sea

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Inter caste marriages will bring new Jathi types to the fore.Inter caste marriages are not nouveau in India they have been happening since eons spawning new jathis.As Energon said Urbanization is a good solution but more is needed to it
If you expect a system such as Caste that has evolved over generations to be demolished in one . . .You are being impractical . . .

Intercastes Marriages eventually do contribute to blurring of caste lines,
Earlier such a blurring was compensated by a Society that legally and morally endorsed castes without question,
with the sanction and blessings of ruling class .

Such is no longer the case now .
 
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Iamanidiot

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A point to be noted North India has chaturvarna system and dalits outside the fold.South India has only two var as Shudras and Brahmins
 

Iamanidiot

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Energon Slavery and the caste system only exhibit convergence but they are entirely two different beasts
 

LurkerBaba

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This did not help much in South T.N the only place where the most brutal caste wars happen in India in a different league
Okay, so do you suggest a change in theology ? 10th Mandala of Rig Veda (10.90 Purusha sukta) ?

IMO
  • The system can either be rejected completely like Buddhism.
  • Or it can be re-interpreted. According to Aurobindo's re-interpretation there are no "divisions" but only "qualities". They are present in every individual and sometimes one flavour "manifests" and sometimes another
 

Cliff@sea

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I think you're oversimplifying this issue perhaps out of frustration, which would be totally understandable. If you look at numerous models around the world involving rehabilitation of segments of society that were systematically broken and oppressed for multiple generations you'll see that the picture is extremely complex.

I'll refer to the model I'm most familiar with, which is the Blacks in the US. Understandably many people angrily say that slavery no longer exists and blacks are just lazy or what have you and playing the victim card... but this isn't exactly true. Slavery may have ended but it inculcated some highly pernicious cultural qualities of which the effects are felt to this day. It also makes the community highly susceptible to problems, which is why it will take many generations and a lot of hard work from either side to resolve these issues.

This task will probably be a lot harder in India. What makes matters worse is that the political class are part of the problem instead of the solution because they institute piss poor populist policies for votes which increases the hostility between the upper and lower castes and is just counterproductive overall .
Blacks for all the ills that ail their society have not institutionalized Victimhood to such an extent as the Lower Castes of India,
where a word such as DALIT which in all its connotations, implying victim hood is considered more respectable than some other
Title that simply indicates their Vocation e.g Chamar (Which simply means Leather Tanner) .

I personally would much prefer being called a Chamar or a Mahar than a Dalit , a symbol of emasculation, which lower castes of
today have taken a great liking to simply coz it absolves them of all responsibility for their own ills because with such identity as
DALIT the blame completely shifts to others and thus the responsibilty for correcting them too .

If i remember correctly Dr. BR Ambedkar the great icon of Scheduled Castes of this nation never endorsed such self defeating means towards empowerment.
in none of his speeches or writings did i ever come across this demeaning Title

The Blacks in America inspite of having suffered no less persecution have gained Political power today
while fighting only for equality never for compensatory sops.
 
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Iamanidiot

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Cliff@sea are you from a lower caste?If not you will not understand the stigma associated with a caste name
 

Iamanidiot

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Blacks hate to be called bigger or negro which was once a very politically correct word
 

Cliff@sea

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Why do you think may people have "Kumar" as their surnames ?
comes exactly out of the thought that crossed your mind when you proposed abolition of caste based surnames,

in my experience solves nothing except for adding more ambiguity to an already confused sense of identity
 
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Cliff@sea

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Cliff@sea are you from a lower caste?If not you will not understand the stigma associated with a caste name
My Dear friend i think u knew and i knew after first few exchanges that we ever had on this forum that we both belonged to a Lower caste
 

Iamanidiot

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Open Priesthood,Urbanization,Own Caste maths,RSS which also emphasises on bonding,a gurudwara like institution which promotes inter community bonding and togetherness are some I can think off
 

amitkriit

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comes exactly out the thought that crossed your mind when you proposed abolition of caste based surnames,

in my experience solves nothing except for adding more ambiguity to an already confused sense of identity
Sense of identity can be compromised for the sake of unity. Hinduism still has got ample space for us to practice our beliefs and to live the way we want.
 

Cliff@sea

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IMO It removes caste "pride" and it lessens stigma associated with a lower caste name
there's something which i learnt at an Art of Living course and found largely true to experience

Whatever you resist would persist .


If a person was completely at terms with his surname and than he chooses to abandon it , yes it would lead exactly to what u just hypothised,

but when surnames still have a stigma attached to them , any attempt to escape it only complicates the problem ,

The solution is through complete acceptance. . . . only once a person has completely endorsed his caste identity,
can he break the shackles that come along with it .
 
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Cliff@sea

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Sense of identity can be compromised for the sake of unity. Hinduism still has got ample space for us to practice our beliefs and to live the way we want.
Yes indeed, a half hearted attempt in this direction was made by Gandhi after his sojourn with Ambedkar's revolutionary ideas,
though he found it hard to let go of the foundations of his belief (yet i m grateful for whatever meager crumbs he threw, for
even in that he was a Pioneer)

but Ultimately the Fountainhead of the change that Lower caste society of India so desperately seeks has to be found from with in it .
 
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