Reforming Hinduism

Energon

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you mean to say other religious societies do not have suffer from that curse. Christianinity is afar most ahead of the list as in Africa and Latin America.

Tell me that single religious group or society under which majority does not suffer.

you mean they brought up the standards of the majority of the lot.. or they simple put balm to the pain...

Hinduism is a very vast canvass with multiplicity, pluralist ideas, freedom and freedom of choice of method of following a life style. Social prcatice, like in England or in USA can be ascribed to a religion. Socio economic practices like slavery or caste emanate from the economic stricture and needs for continuation of a particular economic system.

Do not blame a religious stem for it. For example nothing has changed in the economic system of Pakistan by adoption of Islam. The remain as opressed, as hungry and as deprived as they were earlier.
The question isn't how many people of a certain faith suffer, but rather how many people suffer because of the faith. And yes, when it comes to this Hinduism is pretty high on the list.

If you've noticed Hindu nationalists keep harping upon how India is losing its Hindu identity and the need to make the country reflect its Hindu roots, however they conveniently overlook the fact that India does in fact overwhelmingly reflect its Hindu roots and a big chunk of it is extremely unsavory. The oft counter argument is "look, Muslims and Christians also practice variants of caste system so clearly it has nothing to do with Hinduism"... umm no, what these converts are doing is mimicking the dogmas of Hinduism that were drilled into them first.

I also see people go on and on about how Hinduism is more so a "way of life" than a "religion" (in the Abrahamic sense) yet these comments are followed by attempts to de link the caste system from Hinduism by designating it a social issue or a byproduct of economic philosophy. This is utter hogwash. The foundation of the caste system is very much forged in Hinduism, this was the chosen "way of life" and retroactive arguments to deny this leads to mental gymnastics and then you end up with comments like 'varna system is merit based'. Don't get me wrong I'm not denying that caste has become a social problem particularly defined by geography (there is virtually no trace of casteism in urban India whereas rural India runs entirely upon the caste system) nor am I saying that caste plays into the economic structure of the society. Both of these are true, what I am saying however is that caste originated from Hinduism and then became a socioeconomic phenomenon, not the other way round; and hence now pretending that caste has nothing to do with Hinduism is wrong. You cannot absolve the religious stem that created the phenomenon and instead pass off all the responsibility to modern social mechanisms like the legal framework. Hinduism gave birth to the caste system and now ought to take the responsibility to extinguish it. Structural mechanisms like legislation and policy are undoubtedly great tools and ought to be used to augment the process, but the drive must come from within Hinduism first.

All societies have social hierarchies, however the caste system is by far one of the most organized and indurated system of social stratification and this is the central cause of India's problems. Pakistan and Islam or the instability in South America or Africa has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just because other nations have severe problems doesn't absolve the nefarious aspects of Hinduism.
 

Iamanidiot

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Energon caste has become secular and immortal and no religion in India is immune from this.The only religion ironically which can remove is Hinduism where its genesis Scarce resources and competition are further reinforcing the caste system
 

Iamanidiot

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Ironically discrimination is not heirarchially rigid rather a system of graded inequality immune to religion.In T.N a christian vanniyar discriminates a Hindu pallar and its all about caste.A Syrian christian likes to marry another Syrian christian or otherwise a Brahmin only
 

amitkriit

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Energon caste has become secular and immortal and no religion in India is immune from this.The only religion ironically which can remove is Hinduism where its genesis Scarce resources and competition are further reinforcing the caste system
Exactly. I believe the caste system is already being challenged in several ways, like by the inter-caste marriages. There will be extreme reactions in the beginning because some people are like dinosaurs, but I am sure things will change.
 

Iamanidiot

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Inter caste marriages will only create new jathis .It will not solve the caste problem.Caste problem requires another set of solutions
 

Bhadra

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The question isn't how many people of a certain faith suffer, but rather how many people suffer because of the faith. And yes, when it comes to this Hinduism is pretty high on the list.

If you've noticed Hindu nationalists keep harping upon how India is losing its Hindu identity and the need to make the country reflect its Hindu roots, however they conveniently overlook the fact that India does in fact overwhelmingly reflect its Hindu roots and a big chunk of it is extremely unsavory. The oft counter argument is "look, Muslims and Christians also practice variants of caste system so clearly it has nothing to do with Hinduism"... umm no, what these converts are doing is mimicking the dogmas of Hinduism that were drilled into them first.

I also see people go on and on about how Hinduism is more so a "way of life" than a "religion" (in the Abrahamic sense) yet these comments are followed by attempts to de link the caste system from Hinduism by designating it a social issue or a byproduct of economic philosophy. This is utter hogwash. The foundation of the caste system is very much forged in Hinduism, this was the chosen "way of life" and retroactive arguments to deny this leads to mental gymnastics and then you end up with comments like 'varna system is merit based'. Don't get me wrong I'm not denying that caste has become a social problem particularly defined by geography (there is virtually no trace of casteism in urban India whereas rural India runs entirely upon the caste system) nor am I saying that caste plays into the economic structure of the society. Both of these are true, what I am saying however is that caste originated from Hinduism and then became a socioeconomic phenomenon, not the other way round; and hence now pretending that caste has nothing to do with Hinduism is wrong. You cannot absolve the religious stem that created the phenomenon and instead pass off all the responsibility to modern social mechanisms like the legal framework. Hinduism gave birth to the caste system and now ought to take the responsibility to extinguish it. Structural mechanisms like legislation and policy are undoubtedly great tools and ought to be used to augment the process, but the drive must come from within Hinduism first.

All societies have social hierarchies, however the caste system is by far one of the most organized and indurated system of social stratification and this is the central cause of India's problems. Pakistan and Islam or the instability in South America or Africa has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just because other nations have severe problems doesn't absolve the nefarious aspects of Hinduism.
you mean the Britons who are a highly castist society are mimicking their Hindu past...

That is a good one..
 

Energon

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That is nothing to do with religion but culprits and thugs who mold religion for there own benefits and brain wash the weak..

Now to my above statement, What you are talking ? :

1. You want to modify the written codes in religious books ?

2. You want to hold on those who use it for wrong doings by making there own rules in name of religion ?
The best thing about Hinduism is that there is no hallowed book that outlines rules and regulations. This is good because unlike hardline literalists of other holy books you aren't trapped into defending ostensibly faulty notions like the entire human race originated from one couple, or the earth is only a few thousand years old or dinosaur bones washed up in Noah's flood. Hinduism, as reflected in Indian culture, primarily operates through tradition and word of mouth. Unfortunately these liberties are only reserved for the upper class Hindus. The lower castes and the untouchables on the other hand are given a life sentence and thrown into a prison of cast iron archaic traditions from which they suffer all their lives just like their ancestors.

The key is the upper castes, who clearly dominate the higher socioeconomic echelon of society, especiallyin the new economy. If upper castes accept that there's a serious problem within Hinduism and adopt the stance that Hinduism needs to be reformed to eliminate harsh stratification then things will begin to change. However, if the upper class stay in their cocoon believing that everything is fine with Hinduism then things are only bound to get worse. This is why first there needs to be awareness. Most upper caste urban Indians have absolutely no idea what goes on in the hinterlands; partly because the culture teaches them to ignore the downtrodden and mostly because they don't want to know. Now I realize that in order to live in an Indian city you have to put blinders on and ignore all the filth and poverty, however I do think people need to take an interest into what's really going on around them.
 

Energon

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you mean the Britons who are a highly castist society are mimicking their Hindu past...

That is a good one..
Tell me this is a joke. To equate the british society to the Indian one is patently ludicrous. The brits were a class oriented society just like the french, but they underwent numerous revolutions- both social and industrial that drastically changed their society.
 

Iamanidiot

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Upper caste Hindus must realize service to humanity is service to god
 

Energon

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Energon caste has become secular and immortal and no religion in India is immune from this.The only religion ironically which can remove is Hinduism where its genesis Scarce resources and competition are further reinforcing the caste system
Ironically discrimination is not heirarchially rigid rather a system of graded inequality immune to religion.In T.N a christian vanniyar discriminates a Hindu pallar and its all about caste.A Syrian christian likes to marry another Syrian christian or otherwise a Brahmin only
I agree, the caste system has metastasized into a social and economic phenomenon, however Hinduism still has the greatest influence on the society and if you make changes in Hinduism then you're bound to see the greatest impact. Will it automatically solve everything? Of course not, but the objective is to do as much as possible.

I do disagree about it not being a hierarchically rigid system, it very much is. This of course is described in detail in many a book and academic papers, but the best description I've actually come across was in Arvind Adiga's White Tiger. If you haven't read it you must.

Exactly. I believe the caste system is already being challenged in several ways, like by the inter-caste marriages. There will be extreme reactions in the beginning because some people are like dinosaurs, but I am sure things will change.
The biggest challenger to caste is actually urbanization. Urbanization will definitely dissolve the caste system, however the problem is that urbanization is not a well managed and wide spread phenomenon in India. While it dissolves some fences it also creates a bigger divide, and this is why the support for the maoist movement is on the rise. Yes, economics, legislation and public policy will help bring change, however this change will never be truly complete unless Hinduism takes up the cause.
 

Cliff@sea

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Upper caste Hindus must realize service to humanity is service to god

IMHO Its the Lower Caste Hindu who need to realize that themselves. . .
Lower Caste Hindus proclaim it loudly but the self realization is missing which is why they want others to realise.

and they also need to realize that its ultimately their own realizations that'll make a
difference to their lives not someone else's

Playing the victim card too long is going to prove self destructive
 
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Iamanidiot

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Heirarchially rigid in the sense it is not a intra Hindu thing anymore.A Syrian xtian will discriminate a dalit in the same way a upper caste Hindu would do.Even if there is no caste in xtianity
 

LurkerBaba

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@Iamanidiot, are you suggesting something like the article below ? . This will break the monopoly of Brahmins in rituals and dilute the caste system, but it won't destroy caste identity:

======

Mandal For The Soul | Sugata Srinivasaraju

A Different Math

There are over 100 OBC maths now in Karnataka
They believe it brings a community together and will help them fight for their rights more effectively
As support increases, so does political, economic clout
Brahmin and Lingayat maths are promoting/creating new religious institutions for OBCs. Allegiance, of course, is the main issue.

***
Everyone's heard about OBCs and reservations. But an OBC math, what's that? Well, in Karnataka the backward castes have begun to feel empowered enough to start their own religious seminaries. In fact, there are close to a hundred such maths now in the state with communities of barbers, dhobis, gypsies, goldsmiths, carpenters, basket weavers, cobblers, shepherds and cowherds all getting their own. A man from among them even acts as pontiff or 'jagadguru'.

It's a unique sociological phenomenon for until recently the maths were a preserve of the Brahmin or Lingayat communities. The backward castes swore allegiance to either a Brahmin math in Sringeri or to a Lingayat one in Hubli. But now they just borrow liberally from either the Vedic or Lingayat tradition to propagate their own ideals, preserve their own caste identities. Take pride in your caste—it's the new spin at these religious institutions.

Like the older, established maths, rituals and prayers are part of the daily routine here too. Clothing and feeding the poor from the community is another priority activity. But it's all geared to attract more members. And a registered religious outfit means easier allotment of government land. Journalist Mahadev Prakash, who has chronicled the growth of these organisations, says: "The idea of backward class maths was triggered by the success of the Vokkaliga outfit under Balagangadharanath Swamiji. It became a unifying element for politicians across party lines (Deve Gowda, S.M. Krishna are prominent netas from the community). It thus gained financial muscle and enormous political clout, and has now started educational institutions. The other backward communities, seeing this, decided to follow suit." The Kurubas (shepherd caste) were one of the first to realise a similar math would help them grow. Soon they started their own in Kaginele, triggering off the explosion in 'OBC' maths.

Incidentally, the Lingayat and Brahmin maths have been active in promoting their backward caste counterparts.
Of course, allegiance and rumbles among their own have been issues. The Lingayat pontiff of the powerful 350-year-old Murugha Rajendra Math, Shivamurthy Murugha Sharanaru, went against the wishes of his own people to give out 'deeksha' (sainthood). Sharanaru was taken to court by his devotees but he won the case.


Shivamurthy Murugha Sharanaru with Madara Chenniah Swami

Today, around the Murugha Rajendra Math are outfits of the cobblers (Madara), gypsies (Lambani), dhobhis (Madiwala), barbers (Hadapa/Kshourika), basket-weavers (Medara) etc. The Murugha Math has given about 5-10 acres each to these communities to build their own establishments and has also started a school to train the new backward caste seers in matters spiritual. Needless to say, the new maths have pledged loyalty to the Sharana philosophy and worship the 'atmalinga'. Similarly, the Shivapuri Swamiji of the Omkar Math has aided the setting up of the Vishwakarma math (goldsmiths, carpenters, sculptors etc), the Kuruba math (shepherds), Devanga math (weavers) and the Valmiki math (forest dwellers). These subscribe to the Vedic tradition, even perform yagnas.

Madara Chenniah Swamiji dwells on the political compulsions behind setting up the maths: "There are about 60-70 lakh Madaras in Karnataka alone. Our population is the same in some other states. We want constitutional rights and reservation proportional to our population. It's the prime goal of our math." Chenniah Swamiji is an ex-journalist and was reluctant to play the pontiff's role initially but says he had to think of the "community's interest". His contacts now include politicians from his ilk, including Union minister K.H. Muniyappa.

The Medha community's Ketheswara Swamiji has gone a step ahead, he's already busy networking in the southern states. "We have a decent population in AP, Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra. In November we plan to organise an all-India meet in Hyderabad which will be inaugurated by chief minister Y.S.R. Reddy," he says. K.P. Nanjundi, representing the Vishwakarma Math, expresses similar aspirations and anxieties: "It's only a math that can bring and bind common people together. Nothing else will work."

Prof Narendra Pani of the National Institute of Advanced Studies puts things in perspective: "On the one hand, these maths came into being because there's a need within the political system for them, in terms of gaining political clout, financing polls etc. On the other hand, setting up a math is a means of modernisation and mobilisation. The traditional hierarchy of caste has broken down, by creating maths they are moving away from its inbuilt ambivalences."

Still, it's not as if there's zero discontent. For instance, in 2005, there was a face-off between the Brahmins and Kurubas when the tower in the Udupi Krishna temple's precincts was razed to the ground. But they had to find common ground again because though administered by eight Brahmin maths, the temple's popularity rests on the visit to Udupi of the 16th century saint and composer Kanakadasa, a shepherd.

The other controversy brewing has been between the backward castes and Lingayats over the caste origins of 12th century social reformer Basaveshwara. A research work published in April '07 claimed that Basaveshwara, who renounced his caste and tried to build a casteless social order, originally hailed from the low-caste Madara community. The higher sects within the Lingayats are protesting this "distortion".

Ex-CM Veerappa Moily, who oversaw the drafting of the new reservations bill, is loath to the idea of OBC maths: "They create caste islands. When we give reservations to castes, we look at socio-educational backwardness, not even economic backwardness. So why should spiritual backwardness become an excuse? We should not get together to sharpen the caste divide. I am against institutionalising caste. Maths should keep away from all this." Moily may object but with the evidence on offer, there's no going back on the institutionalising bit.
====
 

Cliff@sea

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Heirarchially rigid in the sense it is not a intra Hindu thing anymore.
Could you kindly elaborate ??

.A Syrian xtian will discriminate a dalit in the same way a upper caste Hindu would do.Even if there is no caste in xtianity
I have more than one personal experiences which directly contradict what you say .
 

Cliff@sea

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@Iamanidiot, are you suggesting something like the article below ? . This will break the monopoly of Brahmins in rituals and dilute the caste system, but it won't destroy caste identity:

======

Mandal For The Soul | Sugata Srinivasaraju

A Different Math

There are over 100 OBC maths now in Karnataka
They believe it brings a community together and will help them fight for their rights more effectively
As support increases, so does political, economic clout
Brahmin and Lingayat maths are promoting/creating new religious institutions for OBCs. Allegiance, of course, is the main issue.

***
Everyone's heard about OBCs and reservations. But an OBC math, what's that? Well, in Karnataka the backward castes have begun to feel empowered enough to start their own religious seminaries. In fact, there are close to a hundred such maths now in the state with communities of barbers, dhobis, gypsies, goldsmiths, carpenters, basket weavers, cobblers, shepherds and cowherds all getting their own. A man from among them even acts as pontiff or 'jagadguru'.

It's a unique sociological phenomenon for until recently the maths were a preserve of the Brahmin or Lingayat communities. The backward castes swore allegiance to either a Brahmin math in Sringeri or to a Lingayat one in Hubli. But now they just borrow liberally from either the Vedic or Lingayat tradition to propagate their own ideals, preserve their own caste identities. Take pride in your caste—it's the new spin at these religious institutions.

Like the older, established maths, rituals and prayers are part of the daily routine here too. Clothing and feeding the poor from the community is another priority activity. But it's all geared to attract more members. And a registered religious outfit means easier allotment of government land. Journalist Mahadev Prakash, who has chronicled the growth of these organisations, says: "The idea of backward class maths was triggered by the success of the Vokkaliga outfit under Balagangadharanath Swamiji. It became a unifying element for politicians across party lines (Deve Gowda, S.M. Krishna are prominent netas from the community). It thus gained financial muscle and enormous political clout, and has now started educational institutions. The other backward communities, seeing this, decided to follow suit." The Kurubas (shepherd caste) were one of the first to realise a similar math would help them grow. Soon they started their own in Kaginele, triggering off the explosion in 'OBC' maths.

Incidentally, the Lingayat and Brahmin maths have been active in promoting their backward caste counterparts.
Of course, allegiance and rumbles among their own have been issues. The Lingayat pontiff of the powerful 350-year-old Murugha Rajendra Math, Shivamurthy Murugha Sharanaru, went against the wishes of his own people to give out 'deeksha' (sainthood). Sharanaru was taken to court by his devotees but he won the case.


Shivamurthy Murugha Sharanaru with Madara Chenniah Swami

Today, around the Murugha Rajendra Math are outfits of the cobblers (Madara), gypsies (Lambani), dhobhis (Madiwala), barbers (Hadapa/Kshourika), basket-weavers (Medara) etc. The Murugha Math has given about 5-10 acres each to these communities to build their own establishments and has also started a school to train the new backward caste seers in matters spiritual. Needless to say, the new maths have pledged loyalty to the Sharana philosophy and worship the 'atmalinga'. Similarly, the Shivapuri Swamiji of the Omkar Math has aided the setting up of the Vishwakarma math (goldsmiths, carpenters, sculptors etc), the Kuruba math (shepherds), Devanga math (weavers) and the Valmiki math (forest dwellers). These subscribe to the Vedic tradition, even perform yagnas.

Madara Chenniah Swamiji dwells on the political compulsions behind setting up the maths: "There are about 60-70 lakh Madaras in Karnataka alone. Our population is the same in some other states. We want constitutional rights and reservation proportional to our population. It's the prime goal of our math." Chenniah Swamiji is an ex-journalist and was reluctant to play the pontiff's role initially but says he had to think of the "community's interest". His contacts now include politicians from his ilk, including Union minister K.H. Muniyappa.

The Medha community's Ketheswara Swamiji has gone a step ahead, he's already busy networking in the southern states. "We have a decent population in AP, Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra. In November we plan to organise an all-India meet in Hyderabad which will be inaugurated by chief minister Y.S.R. Reddy," he says. K.P. Nanjundi, representing the Vishwakarma Math, expresses similar aspirations and anxieties: "It's only a math that can bring and bind common people together. Nothing else will work."

Prof Narendra Pani of the National Institute of Advanced Studies puts things in perspective: "On the one hand, these maths came into being because there's a need within the political system for them, in terms of gaining political clout, financing polls etc. On the other hand, setting up a math is a means of modernisation and mobilisation. The traditional hierarchy of caste has broken down, by creating maths they are moving away from its inbuilt ambivalences."

Still, it's not as if there's zero discontent. For instance, in 2005, there was a face-off between the Brahmins and Kurubas when the tower in the Udupi Krishna temple's precincts was razed to the ground. But they had to find common ground again because though administered by eight Brahmin maths, the temple's popularity rests on the visit to Udupi of the 16th century saint and composer Kanakadasa, a shepherd.

The other controversy brewing has been between the backward castes and Lingayats over the caste origins of 12th century social reformer Basaveshwara. A research work published in April '07 claimed that Basaveshwara, who renounced his caste and tried to build a casteless social order, originally hailed from the low-caste Madara community. The higher sects within the Lingayats are protesting this "distortion".

Ex-CM Veerappa Moily, who oversaw the drafting of the new reservations bill, is loath to the idea of OBC maths: "They create caste islands. When we give reservations to castes, we look at socio-educational backwardness, not even economic backwardness. So why should spiritual backwardness become an excuse? We should not get together to sharpen the caste divide. I am against institutionalising caste. Maths should keep away from all this." Moily may object but with the evidence on offer, there's no going back on the institutionalising bit.
====
Quiet an Inspiring read .!

there are b t w very different dynamics at play with in the OBC consciousness and the SC consciousness ,
I am afraid i m not qualified to speak for STs though
 

Iamanidiot

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Destroying caste identity is simply not easy.Castes being endogamous groups will always build up on their identities.In case of maths they will ensure the wellfare of their own communities spiritually,socially and economically and also better bargaining power politically.
 

Cliff@sea

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Destroying caste identity is simply not easy.Castes being endogamous groups will always build up on their identities.In case of maths they will ensure the wellfare of their own communities spiritually,socially and economically and also better bargaining power politically.
You identify Endogamy (correctly IMO) as the cause that supports Rigidity to Caste identity and yet you say Inter Caste marriages would do nothing to dismantle the system .

Could you please clarify your stand regarding this matter ?
 

Iamanidiot

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Maths in a sense are a good thing they ensure that the development of a community becomes independent off a politician or political party.The castes will also sustain the mutts for their own self-fish ends.This can be emulated in AP but not in T.N where it will lead to caste wars
 

LurkerBaba

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Destroying caste identity is simply not easy.Castes being endogamous groups will always build up on their identities.In case of maths they will ensure the wellfare of their own communities spiritually,socially and economically and also better bargaining power politically.
Getting rid of caste based surnames should alleviate this problem to an extent?
 

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