Refitted HMS Ark Royal for Indian Navy

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Parthy, Dec 17, 2010.

  1. Parthy

    Parthy Air Warrior Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Just starting this thread to share your ideas and views on getting the decommissioned British HMS Ark Royal AC.

    Just a rollback into the history,

    HMS Ark Royal Commissioned on 1985.

    It is getting decommissioned from British Royal Navy earlier than expected..

    Will that be feasible to get the AC and refit extensively as we are doing for Adm.Gorshkov...

    Share your views/Ideas..

    - Parthy
     
  2. Parthy

    Parthy Air Warrior Senior Member

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    In addition, RFA Largs Bay also getting decommisioned.. What about getting that too?? :emot180:
     
  3. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Awesome!
    BTW when can GOI start getting its indigenous carriers with desi resources & practically cheaper LCC??

    Now is the time for CSL to aggressively deploy modular building operations & get half dozen carriers rolling till coming decade. Enough of so-called "Stop-gap" measures. Naval MRCAs are going require much sophisticated carriers so logic remains in concentrating on IAC-2 & future catapult systems.
     
  4. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Four Type 22s also being decommissioned.... what about getting that three-six?

    HMS Illustrious being decommed too... what about getting that seventh?

    70 Harriers retired... what about getting those eighth?

    9 half built Nimrods being disassembled... what about getting those ninth?

    2 Replenishment tankers being retired... what about getting those 10th?

    25 Sea Kings getting retired... what about those 11th?

    3 Sea tugs being cut... what about those 12th?

    _________________________

    RN is dumping enough maritime capability to equip a smaller medium sized naval power.
     
  5. Parthy

    Parthy Air Warrior Senior Member

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    nrj, is there any schedule announced on IAC-2??

    IAC-1 - is scheduled as follows

    The ship will be launched by October 2010, as per the phase I contract signed by CSL with the Defense Ministry. The phase II of the contract will end with the delivery of the ship to the Navy by the end of 2014.

    But still the first-phase yet to be completed.

    work on IAC-2 is schedule to start on the verge of IAC-1 completion.. we have many private ship docks without any project.. Let them give these major Refitting works.. They'll get expertise in system engineering and then when we are planning for IAC-3 let give those contract to them.. Just like give them a mock practice and provide a live project...

    We know very well that nothing worked as SCHEDULED in Indigenous products.. Instead of keeping your fingers crossed, change the way of approach and direct the fingers at the enemy to warn them!!

    On long term, IN has to be provided with 3 active patrolling Carrier Battle groups with 1 or 2 reserved as backup...

    Actually, am not against indigenous products.. Just to speed up in strengthening the IN to rule IO.
     
  6. Parthy

    Parthy Air Warrior Senior Member

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    am just looking for the fleets which we are desperately in need!! AC and an amphibious ship for Combined operations would boost our capability!!
     
  7. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Nothing yet in public domain. However, CSL is supposed to get 5 carriers for IN in coming decade starting with IAC-1.

    IN doctrine is different from that of operational buildup Royal Navy had for 1985 to till date, same goes with Gorky. In fact no firangi carrier will ever be suitable for IN.

    Buying out decommissioned AC from other country involves ample amount of compromise. For example, Gorky won't be featuring any good CIWS till 2017's 1st Indian refit. Also if to be brought in, the "inspection-to-analysis-to-Govt level proposal-to-refit-to-commission" timeframe for HMS Ark Royal will be just appreciable. Instead of putting resources in any such acquisition, in-house programs for ACs should be vigorously incorporated keeping in mind the exact requirement of IN.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2010
  8. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Our AC program is just good for now..
    Buying a Carrier from outside is expensive and it became more expensive when we try to refit it with foreign weapon..
    Regarding Amphibious Assualt ships which are good and cheap platform for Air reconnaissance and surveillance on high seas..

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    There are two more type with US!
    But again we cant use them in WAR time as per the deal..
     
  9. Yatharth Singh

    Yatharth Singh Regular Member

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    @armand-very nice put up mate.

    Yes acquiring decommissioned vessels is not a bad idea but it also it has it much more demerits too. The biggest is that it is decommissioned which, if we say normally is out of use, currently incapable or a waste for any armed force. No matter how much we modernize it but the basic frame and technology will not change and also it was used in earlier times so there may be some strategical disadvantages with it.
    Also we cant weaken our own indigenous projects by investing money into another heavy work. And too we must not forget the capabilities of our navy. Is it capable of operating 4-5 aircraft carriers by 2020, when the huge Russian Navy still operates only 1 AC(or maybe 2)? ok lets not compare our navy with any other`s but then there must be some logic behind acquiring any such a very 'heavy' vessel. IN is not a junkyard.
    We are developing many new vessels and I appreciate that because they are entirely "brand new" for the world plus indigenous which makes it more strong that an acquired 2nd hand product.
     
  10. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Concept of Light carriers..

    Concept of Light carriers..

    I have been studying on light carriers and seems it have some potential in IN..


    [​IMG]

    Light carriers not only can carry aircraft but also can be used as a assault ship..

    All is to do is increase the length with ski-jump and arrestor wires on the stern..
     
  11. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    i think we are trying to depend to much on carriers....carriers are good as power projection and pack lethal punch but they are sitting duck for missiles and there is way to much cost involved in its protection-we dont just have to buy carriers but also destroyers frigates subs for protecting it....

    i would rather prefer more destroyers frigates or even cruisers which can carry more missiles and are not as costly as carriers....

    i think we need to discuss whether we want destroyers frigates or carriers.....??!!
     
  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Why should the Indian Navy go for an old ship when she can get a new one?
     
  13. Parthy

    Parthy Air Warrior Senior Member

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    ok that makes some justification.. what about having the amphibious assault ship??
     
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    If you subscribe to the magazines run by ex servicemen like 'Salute to the Indian Soldier' (Maroof Raza is the publisher) and 'Purple Beret' (Atul Bhardwaj is the Editor) there are extensive articles about the usefulness of an aircraft carrier, some of them being written by Adm Arun Prakash.

    As I see it, if you wish to target a port then an aircraft carrier would be an immense help than say a frigate or a destroyer.
     
  15. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Yes, But its the only way IN can show it presence in Indian ocean also the surveillance is more than any other platform..

    Not necessarily, Carriers are meant for killing enemy vessels and ground target at long distances, Its impossible that any other single surface ship or a small fleet can engage a Carrier battle group..
    Also mentioning abt Carrier battle group it means when u have a carrier you need destroyer corvettes and frigates because without these u don't have a proper system..


    All of them:
    Destroyers : ASW & CIWS cover for the carrier
    Frigates: Fast Ships deigned to hunt or chase Submarines and Ships from Carrier groups..
    Carrier: Command and control center of the whole system..
     
  16. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    self delete .......................
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2010
  17. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    The whole reason RN is decomming so much kit is because it is too old and expensive to maintain. India isn't some second hand market to pick up Anglo garbage. The only thing on my list worth picking up are the Nimrods as they are cutting edge brand spanking new. Getting Ark Royal is a waste as no fixed wing aircraft can operate from it. Buying more Harriers to augment the aged Viraat wing would make more sense but then the Navy already has MiG-29s to practice with until Gorshkov comes. Largs Bay is fairly new, but its carrying capacity is limited to one light LC. Mistral can do the job of 4 Largs Bay. Take the virtual tour...


    http://jdb.marine.defense.gouv.fr/SERVEUR/index.html
     
  18. Parthy

    Parthy Air Warrior Senior Member

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    That's true Ray sir..

    @neilay - If we are saying an AC, its not a stand-alone attacker. We will have support fleet for the AC with an escort SUB... As Kunal bhai said it acts as a command center..

    Its all about the effectiveness.. A frigate and destroyer within the battle group will be able to project a greater threat to the enemy fleet provided the support from the fighters and helis from the AC..

    Not to forget that there's dilemma in IN higher ranks on whether to go for investing in AC or to go with more no of N-SUB fleets.
     
  19. Parthy

    Parthy Air Warrior Senior Member

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    HMS Ark Royal is better than Adm.Gorshkov on abilities... It is getting retired than planned only because of the defense budget cuts, not actually for the maintenance costs...
     
  20. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Why bother about Ark Royal if HMS Queen Elizabeth is up for the grabs.


    ***************************

    HMS Queen Elizabeth

    The new UK CVF Royal Navy aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, are expected to enter service in 2016 and 2018.

    CVF will displace 65,000t, a size between the USA's 100,000t Nimitz Class and the French 43,000t Charles de Gaulle Class aircraft carriers, and three times larger than the 20,000t UK Invincible class carriers.

    The carrier will have a maximum speed of 25kt. At 15kt the range is 10,000nm and the ship carries food, fuel and stores for an endurance of seven days between replenishments. Each ship will have a complement of typically 1,200, including 600 aircrew.

    The CVF Integrated Project Team is managing the procurement programme on behalf of the Ministry of Defence Procurement Executive.

    On 7 July 2009, construction of the carriers began, with the first steel being cut in Govan at the BVT shipyard.....

    The Maritime Group at QinetiQ have developed a suite of advanced modelling and simulation programmes that are being used by the QinetiQ and DPA teams with BAE Systems and the major contractors to characterise the hull, flight deck, hangar deck, internal carrier design and other features.

    The hull designs are being planned for a 50-year service life and are currently being configured with a ski ramp for short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) operations. The carrier's service life is substantially longer than the 20-year service life of the selected F-35 STOVL carrier aircraft. The DPA has decided the carriers will be upgradeable to a conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) design, so the option will be available to operate conventional maritime aircraft. The hull will be nine-decks deep plus the flight deck. Corus will supply the over 80,000t of steel plating required for the two ships at an estimated value of £65m.

    A number of protective measures such as side armour and armoured bulkheads proposed by industrial bid teams have been deleted from the design in order to comply with cost limitations.


    Joint combat aircraft operations

    The carrier will support joint combat aircraft carrying out up to 420 sorties over five days and be able to conduct day and night time operations. The maximum sortie rate is 110 joint combat aircraft sorties in a 24-hour period.

    The standard airgroup of 40 aircraft includes the Lockheed Martin F-35B joint strike fighter, the EH101 Merlin helicopter and the maritime surveillance and control aircraft (MASC).

    The maximum launch rate is 24 aircraft in 15 minutes and the maximum recovery rate is 24 aircraft in 24 minutes.

    The MASC assessment phase for an airborne early warning aircraft to succeed the Sea King ASaC mk7 helicopter was launched in September 2005. In May 2006, three study contracts were awarded for MASC platform and mission systems options. The contracts were awarded to: Lockheed Martin UK to study the potential of using the Merlin with AEW mission systems, AgustaWestland to study maintaining the Sea King ASaC mk7 to 2017 and Thales UK to study upgrading the Sea King's mission systems.

    In July 2006, two further study contracts for the enhanced manned rotary-wing solution were awarded to EADS Defence & Security Systems UK and Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems. Funding for the MASC programme has been deferred and it appears likely that the Sea King ASaC mk7, with capability upgrades, will be retained until the helicopter’s out-of-service date of 2022.

    The aircraft carriers hanger deck, 155m x 33.5m x 6.7m to 10m high, accommodates up to 20 fixed and rotary wing aircraft.

    Under contracts placed in September 2008, Babcock will supply the highly mechanised weapons handling system (HMWHS) and BAE Systems Insyte the air traffic control system for the two vessels.

    Islands

    Instead of a traditional single island, a current ship design has two smaller islands. The forward island is for ship control functions and the aft (FLYCO) island is for flying control.

    Advantages of the two island configuration are increased flight deck area, reduced air turbulence over the flight deck and increased flexibility of space allocation in the lower decks. The flight control centre in the aft island is in the optimum position for control of the critical aircraft approach and deck landings.

    Depending on budget availability, the radar fit will include a BAE Systems Insyte Sampson multi-function radar on the forward island and an Insyte S1850M air surveillance radar on the aft FLYCO island.

    The S1850M air surveillance radar, operating at 1GHz to 2GHz, is an electronically stabilised multibeam radar, operating up to an elevation of 0° to 70° and providing automatic target detection and tracking to a range of 400km.

    The Sampson multifunction radar includes two phased array antennae planes which are rotated and which scan electronically in azimuth and in elevation to provide 360° coverage.

    The four-sided pyramidal masthead with a spherical low-loss glass-fibre-reinforced plastic radome gives the Sampson radar its distinctive appearance.

    Aircraft carrier deck

    The deck will support simultaneous launch and recovery operations. The deck is fitted with a 13° bow deck ski jump.

    No catapult or arresters will be fitted in the initial build but the carrier will be built to accommodate a future back-fit. The carrier will be fitted with a steam catapult or electromagnetic launch system and arrester gear, if the option to convert the carrier to the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant proceeds.

    The deck has three runways: two shorter runways of approximately 160m for the STOVL joint strike fighter and a long runway, approximately 260m over the full length of the carrier, for launching heavily loaded aircraft – an area of nearly 13,000m². The deck will have one or two vertical landing pads for the F-35 aircraft towards the stern of the ship.

    Jet blast deflectors will be fitted on each runway 160m back from the bow ski jump and probably in line with the rear wall of the first island. The deflectors protect the deck from the blast of the F-35 joint strike fighter aircraft engines operating at maximum thrust for take-off.

    There will be two large 70t-load deck-edge aircraft lifts, to be built by McTaggart Scott of Loanhead, Scotland, to transfer aircraft between the hangar and flight decks, one between the islands and one to the aft of the FLYCO island.

    QinetiQ and the US Navy carried out a study on an electromagnetic catapult launcher. Early studies indicated that a 300ft-long, 90MW linear motor would be needed for the CVF aircraft carriers, but both MOD and UK industry would wish to see the results of demonstrations and trials of electromagnetic launcher technology before considering the selection of a launch system.

    An electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) is to be developed by General Atomics in USA for the USN CVN-21 aircraft carrier. The maturity of EMALS technology for integration into UK CVF aircraft carriers will be assessed as the US CVN-21 programme progresses.

    Systems

    The carrier might be built for but not with the installation of a close in weapons system. Another systems which could be fitted if budget were made available would be two 16-cell vertical launchers for the Aster missiles.

    Selex Communications was awarded the production contract for the vessels' identification friend or foe (IFF) systems in October 2007.

    The Queen Elizabeth Class will be fitted with the Royal Navy's new-generation maritime medium-range radar (MRR) to replace the type 996 surveillance and target indication radar. In August 2008, BAE Systems Insyte (with Qinetiq) ARTISAN 3D E/F-band radar was selected for the MRR.
    Aircraft carrier propulsion

    The MoD has decided not to use nuclear propulsion because of its high cost, and has chosen an podded propulsion system based on Rolls-Royce's integrated electric propulsion (IEP) system. The contract for the propulsion system was placed in October 2008.

    The propulsion system will consist of two Rolls-Royce Marine 36MW MT30 gas turbine alternators, providing over 70MW and four diesel engines providing approximately 40MW, with the total installed power approaching 110MW.

    The gas turbines and diesels are the largest supplied to the Royal Navy, their combined power feeds the low-voltage system and supplies two tandem electric propulsion motors that drive a conventional twin shaft arrangement, fitted with fixed-pitch propellers.

    In December 2007, the UK MoD placed a contract with Wärtsilä Defence for two 12-cylinder and two 16-cylinder Wärtsilä 38 diesel engines for the IEP of each ship.

    L-3 Communications is supplying the integrated platform management system and Converteam the high voltage system and propulsion converters / motors.

    CVF will have two bronze propellers, each 6.7m in diameter and weighing 33t. The anchors will be 3.1m in height and weigh 13t.

    CVF will carry over 8,600t of fuel to support both the vessel and aircraft.

    HMS Queen Elizabeth
     

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