Recruitment and Minority representation in RAW

[ejazr]

Outlook India did some reports on this a few years back.

I would say that in intelligence we defintiely need experts in Urdu, Arabic, Persian, Dari, Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi and Bengali languages. With China a bigger concern we need to focus on Tibetan, Mandarin, Cantonese and East Turksitani languages and cultures. And that measn drawing from all fields of the Indian society including Muslims.

Some reports from Outlook are below. These are 2006, so the situation might have changed since then

www.outlookindia.com | "Need For Muslim Officers In Intelligence Gathering Is Acute"
www.outlookindia.com | Manmohan Singh Can't Have A Sikh Bodyguard
www.outlookindia.com | Muslims And Sikhs Need Not Apply

 

[sukhish]

That won't happen mr anti Hindu

Mr bhaiya Hindu, please send some brave hindu's in Pakistan to save religious persecution. Don't pretend to be a lion in your own den.

 

[SADAKHUSH]

Why is it that, I hear this nonsense news which has become reality or there is a rumour floating around in the minds of directionless individuals about this disease of "Quota and Reservation" in all kinds of Government jobs? On one hand you guys profess about having a Government which is assertive and decisive on the other hand you want to reserve a given number of openings for minorities. I am not saying all the people who have been left behind cannot perform the task at hand my point is to raise the education and professional level through the mentorship programmes for those who are left behind than bring them into position of responsibility which RAW agents carry with them.

There is only one kind of citizen who can get Indian Passport that is Indian and case closed.

 

[warriorextreme]

That won't happen mr anti Hindu

lol..i am not anti-hindu but i am also not anti-logic..

 

[Ray]

Outlook India did some reports on this a few years back.

I would say that in intelligence we defintiely need experts in Urdu, Arabic, Persian, Dari, Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi and Bengali languages. With China a bigger concern we need to focus on Tibetan, Mandarin, Cantonese and East Turksitani languages and cultures. And that measn drawing from all fields of the Indian society including Muslims.

Some reports from Outlook are below. These are 2006, so the situation might have changed since then

www.outlookindia.com | "Need For Muslim Officers In Intelligence Gathering Is Acute"
www.outlookindia.com | Manmohan Singh Can't Have A Sikh Bodyguard
www.outlookindia.com | Muslims And Sikhs Need Not Apply

I hope you read what Lemontree had to say on the issue.

He gave the name of the Muslim officer who is heading the NSG in Mumbai.

It is the paid up media which rakes up issues and reports half baked to create controversies!

 

[Ray]

Outlook India did some reports on this a few years back.

I would say that in intelligence we defintiely need experts in Urdu, Arabic, Persian, Dari, Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi and Bengali languages. With China a bigger concern we need to focus on Tibetan, Mandarin, Cantonese and East Turksitani languages and cultures. And that measn drawing from all fields of the Indian society including Muslims.

Some reports from Outlook are below. These are 2006, so the situation might have changed since then

www.outlookindia.com | "Need For Muslim Officers In Intelligence Gathering Is Acute"
www.outlookindia.com | Manmohan Singh Can't Have A Sikh Bodyguard
www.outlookindia.com | Muslims And Sikhs Need Not Apply

I hope you read what Lemontree had to say on the issue.

He gave the name of the Muslim officer who is heading the NSG in Mumbai.

It is the paid up media which rakes up issues and reports half baked to create controversies!

It is a known fact that Vinod Mehta is a Congress hack and so is Sharma of the HT, who is a Govt appointee on the Minority Commission and who reported on a TV debate with coyness and gleeful smugness that the Bhushan tapes were authentic as he learnt it from an unimpeachable source and later it was found by the Govt Forensic Lab to be a cut and paste doctored tape!

Each party has their own man in the media.

Today's news is that Pankaj Pachauri of NDTV has been appointed as the PM's new media advisor!

And it is a known fact that NDTV and CNN IBN are Govt 'mouthpiece'.

 

[Ray]

Here is an example of Outlook's 'objectivity'

Admiral Arun Prakash, one of the most honest and professional officer of the Indian Navy was at the helm when the media came out with the story of "Naval War Room Leak' . The leaks led to the dismissal of a few serving officers of the Indian Navy without a court martial. The Navy's argument was that since the matter was too sensitive the court martial was not "conducive in public interest". This stand of the Navy has been vindicated by the Armed Forces Tribunal in its recent verdict that rejected the petitions of two former naval officers for reinstatement and dismissed their contention that they had been discriminated against. However, the line which certain sections of the media have been taking on the issue reeks of bias against the then Chief of Naval Staff Adm Prakash and a vicious campaign to puncture his reputation built over the years through hardwork and sincerity.

Purple Beret produces here a letter that Adm Arun Prakash had written to the Editor, 'Outlook' who for reasons best known to him refused to publish the Admiral's side of the story. All that the Admiral seeks from the media baron is an honest investigative story based on facts of the case minus the malicious insinuations.




Dear Editor (Outlook),

I feel demeaned to have to respond to a set of allegations made by a magazine like the Outlook. Regrettably, such is the power of the media today that any hack can concoct a sensational story and repeat it ad nauseum, in order to gain fame and fortune. Even more regrettably, such is the impotence of our laws that this process of character assasination can be carried out with total impunity. By not publishing any of the clarifications, rebuttals and denials issued by me and the MoD, over the past four years you have not only violated journalistic ethics, but also the basic principles of justice and fairplay. Much of your coverage has been marked by factual inaccuracies, half-truths and complete fabrication.

However, in the space that is likely to be available to me, I will offer clarifications on five specific items from the article in your (Outlook) 7th June issue, which have been repeatedly used to mislead the reading public. I categorically state that Ravi Shankaran did not step into Navy House even once while I was its occupant. The statement that he "spent considerable time at the official residence of Adml Arun Prakash" is an outright and contemptible lie which shows a lack of integrity as well as poor "homework" on your part. The Navy House has a large staff of securitymen, telephone operators, drivers, cooks and stewards who are not only on duty round the clock, but also live within the premises. Moreover, my Flag Lieutenant (ADC) and Staff Officer were continuously in and out of the house. Not even a casual visitor to Navy House ever goes unnoticed. It is, therefore, obvious that your correspondent did not bother to corroborate with any of these people. You have made tremendous capital out of two phone calls, made to or from Navy House; one in November 2004 and the other in May 2005, to Shankaran and his colleague Prashar. For the record Shankaran happens to be the son of my wife's elder sister, but since he resigned from the Navy some years previously, I personally, have had minimal contact with him. Let me add categorically that I neither called him (on cell phone or land-line), nor ever received any call from him or his colleague in Navy House.

However, he did occasionally call up my wife and daughter, to greet them on festivals and birthdays etc. It is quite possible that these two calls were to or from one of my family members. In view of the huge fuss made by your magazine on the issue of telephone calls, I wrote to the Director CBI on 24th April 2006 asking him to question Prashar (who is in custody) and Shankaran (when apprehended) about the source and content of the two calls in 2004 and 2005, so that the media could be informed. I sent a reminder to CBI on 2ndFebruary 2007, but have not received any response. Similarly, the statement about, "The phone calls from Adml Prakash's residence to Parashar and the series of calls from Shankaran to the then navy chief's residence"¦" is yet another fabrication and total lie. As I mentioned earlier there is a telephone operator on round the clock duty in Navy House, who keeps a log of all incoming/outgoing calls. Your correspondent could have easily verified this statement before trying to pass off this palpable falsehood as the truth. The three officers found guilty of violations of the Official Secrets Act, the Navy Act 1957 and the Prevention of Corruption Act 1988 were found liable to be tried by a Court Martial.

However, after discussions with legal experts it was decided, for good and viable reasons by the MoD, that such a trial would be impracticable. The Raksha Mantri (obviously after due consideration) in exercise of the powers vested in him vide Section 15 of the Navy Act, dismissed them from service in end-October 2005. Please note that the CNS is not empowered by the Navy Act to dismiss officers. These individuals have approached the courts of law regarding their grievances, and will get justice. I, therefore, see no rationale, whatsoever, for your magazine to continuously pass gratuitous, speculative and contempuous comments on an issue that is sub judice in the Delhi High Court.

Having completed the investigation and undertaken administrative action against the three naval officers in a matter of five months, NHQ was indeed concerned that no corresponding action had been initiated against the civilians who were involved. Between end-October 2005 and January 2006, I personally met the Defence Secretary, Shri Shekhar Dutt and the Director IB, Shri ESL Narasimhan, separately on at least 4-5 occasions, and urged them to expedite action. They both informed me that the matter was no longer in the purview of NHQ, but assured me that IB enquiries were still under way, and further action in this case would be initiated shortly by the MoD. Nevertheless, I asked the Chief of Personnel to send a request in writing to the Defence Secretary to seek investigation regarding the involvement of civilians, and initiate action as deemed appropriate. Consequently, on 18th February, the MoD made a formal request to the MHA to this effect, and CBI started its investigation soon thereafter. In early May 2005, the day after I was informed by the Directors of Naval and IAF Intelligence about this case, I met the RM and briefed him about this breach of security. I then told him about the possible involvement of my wife's nephew and conveyed to him that I would quit if this episode was likely to embarrass my Service or the MoD. The RM said, "That may not be necessary. In any case, we should wait and see what transpires." On 25th August 2005 I received information that the Indian Express had published a report regarding the breach of security in the DNO and mentioned that a relative of mine was involved. By next morning I had handed over my resignation to the RM. A week later, he told me that my resignation had not been accepted by the Government. Please read every line of this letter carefully. All the individuals referred to above are fortunately alive and available to any "investigative journalist" who may be in quest of the truth. The fact that no one from your magazine took the trouble to speak to any of them, and that you steadfastly refused to publish any of the clarifications and rebuttals offered by me over the past, shows that you were only interested in pushing a particular line, either fed to you or concocted by your staff. Here I would like to remind you that the selection of the Scorpene submarine for the Navy, and the contract negotiations for its acquisition, were completed by the Government of India over a year before I took over as CNS. I had nothing, whatsoever to do with any of this. My sole concern on taking over as Chief was the declining submarine force levels, which I articulated to the MoD.

It is, now, only a matter of time before Shankaran's interrogation by the CBI reveals the full truth as well as the validity of your theories. In view of this, your repeated and baseless insinuations about me, as well as the display of my photograph in your magazine represent the lowest levels of sensational journalism. You are guilty of slander, defamation and canard, as well as clear violation of Article 10 of the Press Council Journalistic Norms of 2010, which says: "Newspapers should eschew suggestive guilt by association. They should not name or identify the family or relatives or associates of a person convicted or accused of a crime, when they are totally innocent and a reference to them is not relevant to the matter being reported. It is contrary to the norms of journalism for a paper to identify itself with and project or promote the case of any one party in the case of any controversy/dispute."

As fanciful as the rest of your fairy-tale, is the thesis that a Service Chief can influence the actions of the IB and CBI. Surely you could not be so naïve as to suggest that I could order a CBI investigation, or delay its commencement, or ask it to allow an individual to flee the country. We all know the level at which these Central agencies are tasked and controlled.

Finally, Mr. Mehta there are some questions which you need to answer to your readers. I am neither a politician, nor a business tycoon or a film personality. Why, then, the single minded personal focus on me, in 17 issues of Outlook? Why the viciousness and persistence of your attacks on a uniformed person? With so much happening in India, what is behind your obsession with the Scorpene project? You will recall that in early January 2006 you sent an individual named Saikat Datta to the office of my Naval Assistant, Captain Anil Chawla to tell him: "Don't worry; we will make sure you have a new CNS by 31st March". Why this crusade to arrange a change of CNS? And what or who motivated you to send me a threatening message of this nature?

By Admiral (Retd) Arun Prakash

:: Welcome to Purple Beret ::

And we are well aware how the media acts as brokers for various lobbies. Remember the Radia Tapes?

And also isn't it interesting that nothing was done to these so called journalists and bring them to book?!

 

[Poseidon]

Outlook India did some reports on this a few years back.

I would say that in intelligence we defintiely need experts in Urdu, Arabic, Persian, Dari, Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi and Bengali languages. With China a bigger concern we need to focus on Tibetan, Mandarin, Cantonese and East Turksitani languages and cultures. And that measn drawing from all fields of the Indian society including Muslims.

Some reports from Outlook are below. These are 2006, so the situation might have changed since then

www.outlookindia.com | "Need For Muslim Officers In Intelligence Gathering Is Acute"
www.outlookindia.com | Manmohan Singh Can't Have A Sikh Bodyguard
www.outlookindia.com | Muslims And Sikhs Need Not Apply

You are right.
During Kargil RAW had to use Afghan Refugees to translate Pashto which was being spoken by Afghan Mercenaries.
Tibetan shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Singh]

NSG commandos' Director General NPS Aulakh is a Sikh, buddy. I think that stupid limitation came only for SPG. From what I feel that RAW may have few or no Sikhs is because to blend in spying against Pakistan, they would have to go against a tenet of their path of Dharma -- cutting hair which is a sensitive matter. At least that's what I feel.

SPG's reason is because terrorist Congress framed that dirty rule against Sikhs due to Indira's own disaster.

I think this is a useless discussion. The OC of the NSG unit in Mumbai was a muslim officer Major Mohd Ismail.

Lemontree Sir,

In my humble opinion there is a definite bias against muslims and sikhs when it comes to recruiting for NSG and SPG and against muslims when it comes to recruitment to Intel agencies.

And I blame lack of political will and bureaucratic inertia for the same. Hopefully things change in the future. It will only be beneficial if the minorities are inducted.

PS: The one thing that perplexes me is that it was actually the Sikhs themselves who helped finish the Khalistani militancy.

 

[Ray]

Singh,

Apart from the media, has anyone got details if Sikhs and Muslims are being left out?

That way, the Bengalis and the people of the NE feel that they are left out of everything!

There is a definite bias against Bengal and the NE.

When Laloo engineers all the goodies of the Railway for Bihar, no one complains.

But if Mamata Bannerjee does it for her State, the media goes to town!

And yet, the current Railway Minister, also from Bengal, openly states that the Railway should be operated professionally and politics should be left out.

In India, we are all aggrieved and there is always something to grouse about.

The Muslims are getting reservation, the OBCs don't like it.

And why should Muslims get reservation?

In Islam is there any caste? They have converted people using the horrors of caste and stating that in Islam all are equal. So, why this caste appearing suddenly?

Is their religious book Quaran and the Hadiths wrong?

So, everyone has a grievance and can find so many reasons justifying it!

 

[Ray]

Here is what Sardar Vallabhai Patel of the Congress Party had to say on Muslim reservations:

The Constituent Assembly believed it was the institutionalisation of religious differences that was responsible for Partition and it was determined to never repeat the process. In a forthright speech opposing separate Muslim seats, Sardar Vallabbhai Patel told the remaining Muslim League members of the Constituent Assembly on August 28, 1947 to 'forget the past': "You have got what you wanted. You have got a separate state and remember, you are the people who were responsible for it, and not those who remain in Pakistan"¦You got the Partition and now again you tell me and ask me to say for the purpose of securing the affection of the younger brother that I must agree to the same thing again, to divide the country again in the divided part. For God's sake understand that we have also got some sense"¦"

Usual Suspects: Muslim quota set to open Pandora’s box

 

[Ray]

If there is any discrimination and can be proved so, we must,as Indians, stand up against it and condemn it with all the powers at our command.

However, we should have the facts and not go by the paid hacks.

The ideal way is to file an RTI.

None can fudge on an RTI. At best, they can deny it on 'national security'

And if they do that, it sure gives credence to the doubt that there is discrimination.

I am against quotas and reservation since that makes people infirm, robs them of competitiveness, and makes them lazy because they do not have to strive to get what they desire and hence makes people ambitionless!

It is the ideal way to cripple a set of people.

 

[Singh]

Singh,

Apart from the media, has anyone got details if Sikhs and Muslims are being left out?

That way, the Bengalis and the people of the NE feel that they are left out of everything!

Sir,

I don't see any reason why the so called "Congress mouthpiece" would show Congress in a bad light.
Lets not attack or bolster the media's credibility when it suits us. There are on the record interviews and facts as well.

And as I said, the reason for this is sheer lack of political will and our legendary bureaucracy. Nobody wants to stick their necks out and everybody is interested in "CYA".

 

[Ray]

Singh,

There was a time when they felt that the IA was only for Sikhs and the AMC was only for Bengalis and the called it BMC and not AMC and the IAS was a congregation of South Indians!

All perceptions and convenient axe to grind!

Congress mouthpiece also have their agendas to grind.

Digvijay Singh is also from the Congress but he attacks Chidambaram over Batla House!

Rahul Gandhi for convenience calls Uma Bharati an outsider since it suit the flavour and it requires Uma Bharati to remind him of his mother who is a rank outsider!

Games people play!

I have done enough media interaction to realise it is very dangerous to talk to them since the twist things to sensationalise. I have a victim of their evil game once and the issue had nothing to do with me! In an editorial, they bamboozled me to protect someone else, who was important to them for 'leaks'.

Another time I was accused of 'highjacking' an Indian Airline flight!

It is indeed CYA if there is discrimination in NSG and Intel.

However, there have been many Muslims in the Intel at levels that are not glamorous.

Therefore, it is a canard!

No one is attacking or praising the media. All one is saying is, use your intellect also to wade through the report.

Check how the media has messed up the COAS issue!

It is only those who know how the Army works would know the reality,but the way it has been handled has divided the national opinion and also demoralised, not only the Army and the military, but also the Nation!

And the media is laughing all the way to the bank!

If you notice, I have also mentioned that it would also be necessary to check as to if 1950 was given so that he was not underage and then having joined the DoB was as per the School Leaving Cert.

I have been fair.

 

[ejazr]

First of all I don't see why the reservation question is coming up here except by some rather random posts by a member. We are talking about general recruitment.
The sardar Patel quote here is with respect to Political reservation with Muslim only electorates or reserved seats. This was not to do with jobs which was what the discussion was about. But let's leave that to another topic.

And there have been Muslim IB officers and according to the outlook article Muslim RAW officers as well. This is what the first outlook article says.

We don't need population reservation but we CERTAINLY need context specialists. In the US post 9/11 1000s of muslim americans were hired as culture specialists or language specialists. In JK local Muslims and JK police have played a major role in intel gathering and breaking the back of the militancy. If we can see success stories, we can certainly see success stories in other areas.

 

[Tronic]

And why should Muslims get reservation?

In Islam is there any caste? They have converted people using the horrors of caste and stating that in Islam all are equal. So, why this caste appearing suddenly?

Is their religious book Quaran and the Hadiths wrong?

So, everyone has a grievance and can find so many reasons justifying it!

Sir, I know that you are well aware of the fact that casteism in India is a cultural and not a religious issue. You yourself have gone on to explain in the past how even Sikhism and Christianity are filled with casteism in India. So why choose to paint the Muslims any different?

 

[Ray]

First of all I don't see why the reservation question is coming up here except by some rather random posts by a member. We are talking about general recruitment.
The sardar Patel quote here is with respect to Political reservation with Muslim only electorates or reserved seats. This was not to do with jobs which was what the discussion was about. But let's leave that to another topic.

And there have been Muslim IB officers and according to the outlook article Muslim RAW officers as well. This is what the first outlook article says.

We don't need population reservation but we CERTAINLY need context specialists. In the US post 9/11 1000s of muslim americans were hired as culture specialists or language specialists. In JK local Muslims and JK police have played a major role in intel gathering and breaking the back of the militancy. If we can see success stories, we can certainly see success stories in other areas.

That is a convenient interpretation of Sardar Patel.

The underlining message is, having got what the Muslim wanted, the issue is closed since religion is not any grounds for reservation or dividing the country any further any more.

It is also as per the Constitution that there can be no religion based reservation.
'
And correct me if I am wrong, is there caste in Islam or mentioned in the Quaran or the Hadith?

As I said before, if there is any discrimination, then as Indians one has to stand up and condemn it.

In so far as Muslims in RAW, IB, etc, file a RTI. Check it out.

 

[Ray]

Sir, I know that you are well aware of the fact that casteism in India is a cultural and not a religious issue. You yourself have gone on to explain in the past how even Sikhism and Christianity are filled with casteism in India. So why choose to paint the Muslims any different?

I regret to say that if I have changed my religion because of caste atrocities, then I have no right to claim privileges based on the infirmity of my original religion.

Indeed, if it is still prevalent in the new religion, it is the new religion which is being fraudulent and totally against the tenets of that religion. One cannot blame culture for that.

And anyway, the large majority, when it is convenient claim that they are not SC but are of the pure Arab stock!

I am not painting them as separate. They are painting themselves as separate as they did to get Pakistan! Is there really any difference between a Pakistani of UP and the people of UP!

It may interest you to note that the Mohajirs are disliked in Pakistan, but not so in India! It is our inherent tolerance!

It cannot be ai bhi wah wah, tan bhi wah wah!!

It is time to be INDIANS!

That apart, if there is discrimination, it is repugnant!

We are INDIANS and not some religious group or some community flaunted for paramountcy!

 

[Ray]

Pandering to religion is what is dividing the country further and creating dangerous battle lines!

It is time India wakes up!

 

[Galaxy]

I don't understand why so much noise from Muslim side ?

In spite of all religious division, we become secular nation. We drive on roads like Aurengzeb and Babar road in VIP area. A Muslim can achieve anything as per his/her ability including Abdul Kalam or Shahrukh Khan.

Even T.F.R. is too high among Muslims, still population control minister is Gulam Nabi Azad.

Akbar become spokesperson of MoE and Kureshi as Chief Election commissioner.

Many Muslims converted into Islam, as they blamed cast system. Although it's false, because Mostly upper cast & dominated OBC converted due to opportunist behaviour. Still, making point for reservation which is against Islam.

I don't have any reservation not because i don't need but because i believe in my ability. Then why Muslims need that when they have equal rights like any other Indian ?? Is it India's fault that most of the educated and Elite class among Muslims ditched India and went to Pak/BD ?

How many Non-majority are working in intelligence agency in 100 secular countries including USA and Japan. Still, they do get opportunity to join any service. How many have better education or interested in Jobs and not to follow their small scale business ? Out of 1,000 applications, 90% are bound to be Hindus/Indian religion. So, The same percentage of recruitment.

Sorry to say, Muslims have two different version as per their demographic. They should be more than happy that they are getting which was practically not possible. If majority of Indians behaved with anger after 47, Muslims population would have declined till 2%.

They got much more than it was possible after unforgettable pain of 1947. As Sardar Vallabhai Patel "We have some sense".