Raymond Davis saga in Pakistan

JayATL

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Lets understand this Ray-

FIRST- you said this guy was of strategic importance.

I said in essence - actually he is of political gamesmanship of the US ( importance) and rather holds no strategic importance- because he is not James bond that has strategic secrets that US wants. ( note: I made no personal attack or insulted you in the post)

Then to that simple reply you INSULTED me and made a personal attack Quote: "
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would give more credence to the ex Foreign Minister of Pakistan's opinions than a poster on a forum, even if he adopts an air of being a sub janta"
- eluding to me not having a modicum of intelligence( insult at me and me only) because quote " an ex Pakistani minister said" - so it must be true.


I'm still not sure whether it's generational or we speak simply different languages. But every time I debate you - you get personal and the feign outrage at me. . I never asked you specifically about challenging my sarcasm intended in the old post. I simply said I wonder how many will miss it ( because I used the word " pussy", in pussy galore)

now feel free to ban me - cause I don't give a R____ A___ :D
 
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Ray

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Please understand the difference between 'strategic asset' and 'strategic importance'.

Please don't aggravate.

Let's keep the issue on even keel.

And enjoy your stay out here.

If you feel that the ex Pak FM is talking through his hat, then please factually prove that. That would be more useful for the posters so that they can analyse the issue on what they are reading here on this thread.

I am sure Pussy Galore and James Bond does not help.

In fact, Le Carre is closer to real life.

I debate issues with many including the Chinese. They have no complaints and we have had serious difference. However, they support their contention with facts and I do likewise. There is, thus, no grounds for animus or bad blood!

I am not personal until needled.
 
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JayATL

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Ray- again see post #45 . the guy is simply a political liability and no asset no nothing else. Had Obama not feared being called a guy who does not protect a US citizen ( the right has demigod him in the US) , had this case not been in Pakistan rather in Iran. the US would have let him fry!

This is purely political for the US because they know they have leverage against pakistan. - and that's staying on topic and answering you assumptions.
 

Ray

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First of all, it is not for me to understand. It is for you to understand.

I have been on this forum and on the Administration for a long time and I understand the ethos and aims of the Board better than you.

I did not say that the man was of 'strategic importance'.

I said, he is a 'strategic asset'.

If you are not conversant with the vast difference, I am afraid that is not my fault. Therefore, your incapacity to understand the difference and taking off on a tangent is indeed very bewildering to one who understands the difference and having known the difference has written so!

It is also bewildering that your deficiency to comprehend the difference of 'strategic asset' and 'strategic importance' lead to the one-upmanship exercise of the plug of James Bond and Pussy Galore – a totally unrealistic imagery given that real life 'cloak and dagger' has no semblance to JB episodes and instead are excellent vehicles to titillate the bored and sensational hungry minds. Those in the know are aware that intelligence operatives are more like Le Carre's characters.

Without even checking the details of the case, you lampooned without cause even further with your inside outside underwear Superman inanity to project that you are in a better position to know of Statecraft than a person whose job was Statecraft and all its underhand dealings ie the ex Foreign Minister of Pakistan.

While I would not totally discredit your thought that you know more of Foreign Policy evolution, as also, all about the working and way intelligence operatives operate, but then you have given us no inkling about this expertise of yours. Neither did you debunk the ex FM Pakistan's opinion with facts nor did you tell us about how the CIA operatives operate. I am sure you will be good enough to concede that James bond and Pussy Galore are hardly archetypal of the modus operandi that intelligence operative adopt or even whether wearing underwear outside is some unique way to gather intelligence!!

Even though in my official work I had opportunity to interact in various capacities with govt administrators and even Ministers and intelligence personnel, I daresay I would claim that I know their job better than them. Therefore, I would not dismiss even a Pakistani ex FM in such a cavalier manner, more so, when I do not have hard facts. I surely would not feel that what they say is to have pulled a Superman with his underwear worn incorrectly. Instead, I would take heed of what he has said, watch the space, and then comment.

Therefore, anyone with a modicum of intelligence would give more credence to the ex Foreign Minister of Pakistan's opinions than a poster on a forum, even if he adopts an air of being a sub janta is justified. That is, unless the poster can with fact debunk the ex FM's statement. I think that is fair. It is also a caution to others to 'put their money where their mouth is'. We are here on this forum interested in people putting their money where their mouth is and not indulge in flippancy or ride their hobby horses on pink clouds of untamed imagination. Bandwidth costs money to those who run this Forum.

Pussy? What's bad about little kitten? I don't quite appreciate cats, but then there are many who are fascinated by little kittens or pussies.

It does not matter whether you care a R*** A**** or not. As far as I know, there are not Rats or their posteriors around here. You seem to see them in close proximity!

I debate issues with many including the Chinese. They have no complaints and we have had serious differences. However, they support their contention with facts and I do likewise. There are, thus, no grounds for animus or bad blood or wasting time of the posters with personal interaction!

I am not personal until needled.

Banning you? It is a couple of keypad thumps and nothing so strenuous or intellectually challenging.

If I were to ban you, I could have done long ago rather than allow you to go on and on with trifles that are not material to the discussion.

Let's keep the issue on even keel.

And enjoy your stay out here.
 
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Ray

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Ray- again see post #45 . the guy is simply a political liability and no asset no nothing else. Had Obama not feared being called a guy who does not protect a US citizen ( the right has demigod him in the US) , had this case not been in Pakistan rather in Iran. the US would have let him fry!

This is purely political for the US because they know they have leverage against pakistan. - and that's staying on topic and answering you assumptions.
You are right about the Obama phenomenon.

I am not contesting that.

However, this man, in all probability was deep in the workings of the Taliban operating from Pakistan into Afghanistan. He knew Urdu as also Pashto. He may have made great inroads. All conjectures on my part.

Therefore, to lose him would lose a great asset and maybe irreplaceable!

I don't know, but I just guess or else why this drama?

Obama, as it is, is not too 'active'.

If he were to act tough, Egypt should have been the place - a country vs one man (chap arrested in Pakistan).

Regime change!

doing one better than Bush - without any US forces entering and yet the US writ running!

No quibbles on your post #45. Good post.
 
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Ray

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JayATL.

Let us not waste others' time.

PM me if you have something to write personal or else, report my post!
 

JayATL

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First of all, it is not for me to understand. It is for you to understand.

I have been on this forum and on the Administration for a long time and I understand the ethos and aims of the Board better than you.

I did not say that the man was of 'strategic importance'.

I said, he is a 'strategic asset'.

If you are not conversant with the vast difference, I am afraid that is not my fault. Therefore, your incapacity to understand the difference and taking off on a tangent is indeed very bewildering to one who understands the difference and having known the difference has written so!

It is also bewildering that your deficiency to comprehend the difference of 'strategic asset' and 'strategic importance' lead to the one-upmanship exercise of the plug of James Bond and Pussy Galore – a totally unrealistic imagery given that real life 'cloak and dagger' has no semblance to JB episodes and instead are excellent vehicles to titillate the bored and sensational hungry minds. Those in the know are aware that intelligence operatives are more like Le Carre's characters.

Without even checking the details of the case, you lampooned without cause even further with your inside outside underwear Superman inanity to project that you are in a better position to know of Statecraft than a person whose job was Statecraft and all its underhand dealings ie the ex Foreign Minister of Pakistan.

While I would not totally discredit your thought that you know more of Foreign Policy evolution, as also, all about the working and way intelligence operatives operate, but then you have given us no inkling about this expertise of yours. Neither did you debunk the ex FM Pakistan's opinion with facts nor did you tell us about how the CIA operatives operate. I am sure you will be good enough to concede that James bond and Pussy Galore are hardly archetypal of the modus operandi that intelligence operative adopt or even whether wearing underwear outside is some unique way to gather intelligence!!

Even though in my official work I had opportunity to interact in various capacities with govt administrators and even Ministers and intelligence personnel, I daresay I would claim that I know their job better than them. Therefore, I would not dismiss even a Pakistani ex FM in such a cavalier manner, more so, when I do not have hard facts. I surely would not feel that what they say is to have pulled a Superman with his underwear worn incorrectly. Instead, I would take heed of what he has said, watch the space, and then comment.

Therefore, anyone with a modicum of intelligence would give more credence to the ex Foreign Minister of Pakistan's opinions than a poster on a forum, even if he adopts an air of being a sub janta is justified. That is, unless the poster can with fact debunk the ex FM's statement. I think that is fair. It is also a caution to others to 'put their money where their mouth is'. We are here on this forum interested in people putting their money where their mouth is and not indulge in flippancy or ride their hobby horses on pink clouds of untamed imagination. Bandwidth costs money to those who run this Forum.

Pussy? What's bad about little kitten? I don't quite appreciate cats, but then there are many who are fascinated by little kittens or pussies.

It does not matter whether you care a R*** A**** or not. As far as I know, there are not Rats or their posteriors around here. You seem to see them in close proximity!

I debate issues with many including the Chinese. They have no complaints and we have had serious differences. However, they support their contention with facts and I do likewise. There are, thus, no grounds for animus or bad blood or wasting time of the posters with personal interaction!

I am not personal until needled.

Banning you? It is a couple of keypad thumps and nothing so strenuous or intellectually challenging.

If I were to ban you, I could have done long ago rather than allow you to go on and on with trifles that are not material to the discussion.

Let's keep the issue on even keel.

And enjoy your stay out here.

there you go insulting me several times in this post . Over and over again- when I refrain from doing so to you.

However, just after this post , you posted something that speaks volumes .

However, this man, in all probability was deep in the workings of the Taliban operating from Pakistan into Afghanistan. He knew Urdu as also Pashto. He may have made great inroads. All conjectures on my part.
Conjecture= based on assumption and not facts. thank you for finally qualifying your remarks on this situation. One can't educate another when all they are doing is a guessing game!

Therefore, anyone with a modicum of intelligence would give more credence to the ex Foreign Minister of Pakistan's opinions than a poster on a forum, even if he adopts an air of being a sub janta is justified. That is, unless the poster can with fact debunk the ex FM's statement.
the same guy said 26/11 ( repeated this now twice in two posts as proof of his lack of credibility)was not done by pakistanis... how can you take his word?
 
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Ray

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Thanks.

No more, please!


Will edit as a starter and then........

stay around and I am sure you have great potential to contribute constructively.
 
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sandeepdg

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Well,it wil not work.There is too much to lose for america,public sentiments are already anti west just a spark and they(america) will be looking at a government is islamabad who most probably will be hostile to its foreign policies in our region.

what is more important ,1 man or their puppets ? :)
What's too loose for America ? They are already in the process to leave Afghanistan, that was their most important mission in Asia. Once they are gone, they hardly need any help from Pakistan regarding any matter. As for sentiments, they have always had anti-west sentiments, right since 1947. Even though their country is running with western money and aid for decades, they are not literate enough to understand the implications of the action they will experience when that financial assistance is stopped. And as for America, they don't give a damn about what the people and government of Pakistan think about them, if they want anything they will get it by hook or by crook, as has been evident throughout Pakistan's history !
 

p2prada

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@Jay

You have made strong points and even I am convinced with your post in #45.

I have respected your posts and your views and I am sure Ray sir does too. However you are directing your "sarcasm" at the wrong person. Blame it on a generational gap if you want to, but your posts with Ray sir was less than mature. I am sure you will get to learn a lot from him as I am learning from you. A little more maturity on your part will help us considering Ray sir said this, "stay around and I am sure you have great potential to contribute constructively."

Reflect on it because you don't want a person younger to you telling you where you went wrong.

Regards.
 
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Oracle

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Pics of Pak defence sites found in Davis's camera

ISLAMABAD: Prosecutors have recommended registering an espionage case against US official Raymond Davis, who shot dead two Pakistanis in Lahore, after police retrieved from his camera photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations, including those of army bunkers on the eastern border with India.

Raymond Davis was arrested for fatally shooting two Pakistani motorcyclists in Lahore on January 27.

"During the course of investigation , police retrieved photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations from Davis's camera," a source told the Express Tribune. "Photos of the strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar and of Pakistan army bunkers on the eastern border with India were found in the camera," the source was quoted as saying.

The digital camera was recovered from Davis after his arrest.

Source
 

Ray

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Does indicate a cloak and dagger affair gone sour.

No wonder the Pakistanis are going berserk.

Reminds me of the something similar from John Carre's novel where MI5 was running an agent inside East Germany.
 

Tronic

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Pics of Pak defence sites found in Davis's camera

ISLAMABAD: Prosecutors have recommended registering an espionage case against US official Raymond Davis, who shot dead two Pakistanis in Lahore, after police retrieved from his camera photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations, including those of army bunkers on the eastern border with India.

Raymond Davis was arrested for fatally shooting two Pakistani motorcyclists in Lahore on January 27.

"During the course of investigation , police retrieved photographs of some sensitive areas and defence installations from Davis's camera," a source told the Express Tribune. "Photos of the strategic Balahisar Fort, the headquarters of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in Peshawar and of Pakistan army bunkers on the eastern border with India were found in the camera," the source was quoted as saying.

The digital camera was recovered from Davis after his arrest.

Source
I reckon had he not killed them, they would have killed him, given the intelligence game this is playing out to be; and today the headlines in Pak would be running, 'American diplomat killed by highway robbers'. Its going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
 

Oracle

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No Money, No Paani!
Police are the same in India too. They think they are above the law. Giggling, kidding. Shameless A$$holes!
 
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JayATL

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Photographs of defense related sites( btw I suspect those are publicly viewable sites) has nothing to do with the case.

It has zero value to this case. If you want to hold him for espionage related crimes then do so.

this is a classic folly that many an ill-informed mass fall for. Bringing in claims that have nothing to do with the case on hand.

Even in a court of law they don't permit to bring in examples of other acts or even past crimes too- which were not specifically related to the case on hand! It's called " tainting the case".

Example: A man could have spent 10 years in jail for raping a girl and after he got out , he shot a gang member years later. The prosecution can't introduce his 10 year jail sentence to the jury. Has nothing to do with the case on hand ( murder) and will only taint the jury's mind.
 
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pmaitra

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Photographs of defense related sites( btw I suspect those are publicly viewable sites) has nothing to do with the case.

It has zero value to this case. If you want to hold him for espionage related crimes then do so.

this is a classic folly that many an ill-informed mass fall for. Bringing in claims that have noting to do with the case on hand.

Even in a court of law they don't permit to bring in examples of other acts or past crimes too- that were not specifically related to the case in hand! It's called " tainting the case".

Example: A man could have spent 10 years in jail for raping a girl and after he got out , he shot a gang member years later. The prosecution can't introduce his 10 year jail sentence to the jury. Has nothing to do with the case on hand ( murder) and will only taint the jury's mind.
Good post Jay. A special case of non sequitur.
 

RPK

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Pakistan remands US official in jail for 14 days

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.1aa3e1ece3aedbb76228b6bc8e4c385e.661

By Waqar Hussain (AFP) – 2 hours ago

LAHORE, Pakistan — Pakistan on Friday sent a US official to jail on judicial remand, pending further murder investigations and a legal tussle over diplomatic immunity in a case that has inflamed ties with Washington.

Raymond Davis appeared in a Lahore court accompanied by heavy police security, 15 days after he was arrested for shooting dead two men on motorbikes. He has maintained he acted in self-defence.

The US government says Pakistan is holding him unlawfully and demands his immediate release, saying that Davis is a "diplomat assigned to the US embassy in Islamabad" and has diplomatic immunity.

US lawmakers have threatened to cut payments to Pakistan, the beneficiary of $7.5 billion dollars of aid and $2 billion in military aid, and Washington has warned that high-level dialogue is at risk unless Davis is freed.

"He has been remanded in judicial custody for 14 days. The next hearing will be on February 25," Punjab government prosecutor Abdul Samad told reporters.

A full report was not presented in court on Friday as "investigations were not completed," Samad said.

"Most of the time was taken up by the defence lawyer on the issue of immunity. The judge said that the issue of immunity had been taken up by a higher court, so it was not in his purview," Samad said.

On February 1, the Lahore high court blocked any move to free Davis and gave the foreign ministry 15 days to answer on whether he has diplomatic immunity.

Nauman Atique, lawyer for the Pakistanis shot dead by Raymond, said Judge Aniq Anwar said the question of immunity was pending before the high court.

The US embassy was not immediately available for comment.

Police official Suhail Sukhera told reporters that Davis was now being sent to the high-security Kot Lakhpat jail in the eastern city.

On January 27, Davis shot dead two Pakistani men who he said were trying to rob him in broad daylight on the streets of the city.

A third Pakistani was run over and killed by a US consular vehicle coming to aid Davis, who was instead taken into Pakistani police custody.

Samad told reporters that Davis' lawyers had submitted two applications: one demanding immunity on his behalf and saying he cannot be put on trial, and the second asking for court proceedings to be held in camera.

In what has become a political time-bomb, the government in Islamabad is under enormous domestic pressure to see Davis go on trial, with local lawyers arguing that diplomatic immunity can be waived for grave crimes.

The deaths sparked protests in Pakistan, where the alliance with Washington is hugely unpopular and anti-American sentiment runs high, fuelled by US missile attacks on Islamists in the northwest and the war in Afghanistan.

The wife of Mohammed Faheem, one of the two men shot by Davis, committed suicide on Sunday by taking poison.

Davis -- whose name and precise job have not been officially confirmed by the US government -- had previously been held on police remand.

Rana Sanaullah, Punjab's law minister, told AFP on Thursday that the prosecution would seek his trial for homicide.

"We will prepare murder charges against him," Sanaullah said. "Another case of carrying unlicensed weapons will also be taken up against him."

In Pakistan, few are convinced that Davis was a normal diplomat. Police told AFP they recovered a Glock pistol, four loaded magazines, a GPS navigation system and a small telescope from his car.
 

SHASH2K2

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ISLAMABAD: The US has threatened Pakistan that its envoy will be "kicked out" if it fails to release the American official arrested for gunning down two men in Lahore by Friday, according to a media report.

National security advisor Tom Donilon told Pakistani envoy Hussain Haqqani that the Obama administration will "kick him out of the US", close consulates in Pakistan and cancel President Asif Ali Zardari's upcoming visit to Washington if US official Raymond Davis is not released by Friday, ABC News channel quoted two unnamed Pakistani officials as saying.

Donilon reportedly conveyed the warning to Haqqani on Monday evening.

The "outlines of the threat" were also confirmed to ABC News by a senior US official who was not authorized to speak on the record.

White House spokesperson Tommy Vietor declined comment.

Haqqani denied the development via Twitter, saying in a message that no "US official, incl the NSA, has conveyed any personal threats 2 me or spoken of extreme measures".

Davis, 36, was on Friday sent to jail for 14 days by a court in Lahore even as city police chief Aslam Tareen said he had been charged with murder as there was no proof to back his claim that he had acted in self-defence when he shot and killed the two men on January 27.

Davis has claimed that he opened fire after the two armed men followed his car and tried to rob him.

Video emerged this week of Davis showing his state department credentials to Pakistani police officers during an interrogation and saying, "I'm a consultant".

Davis is in Pakistan on a diplomatic passport and the US has demanded his immediate release on the grounds that he enjoys diplomatic immunity.

The stand-off between Washington and Islamabad has taken the tense relationship between the two countries to a new low.

Read more: US tells Pakistan to release Davis or its envoy would be kicked out - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ed-out-/articleshow/7475170.cms#ixzz1De65xy2h
 

Yusuf

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KICKED OUT is a very very strong wording by the US admin. Pretty much some strong arm tactics which pakistan will have to comply in the end. I think Pak resistance is only a formal show for domestic consumption. It will most certainly hand that person back to the US.
 

Vikramaditya

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Today USA has shown pakistan their correct position,man they have no respect at all.US is treating them like a dog.Well at the end pakistan have to accept US verdict otherwise they gonna kick pakistan @ss.
 

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