Rafale no match for China’s MMRCA

Discussion in 'Military Aviation' started by HeinzGud, Feb 1, 2012.

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  1. HeinzGud

    HeinzGud Senior Member Senior Member

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    This thread is about how the Rafale deal would change the strategic context in the subcontinent specially between China and India

    [​IMG]

    India inked the world's single largest defence deal by closing the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract. As these fourth generation fighter jets join the Indian Air Force fleet, China will prepare to launch its fifth generation stealth fighter Chengdu J-20. China is racing ahead towards the planned induction of its indigenous stealth fighter in 2017. The Chengdu J-20, which made its debut in January last year, has already flown two prototypes, within a span of four months. In India's case, however, the Rafale, only fourth generation — are still undergoing price negotiations. The commercial bids for the US $15 billion deal were opened on 4 November.

    French Dassault Aviation's twin-engine Rafale fighter is operational only in the French Navy and Air Force, and recently lost out the US $10 billion deal it had hoped to sign with the United Arab Emirates.

    Highly priced, approximately around $80 million a piece, neither Typhoon nor Rafale has a proven radar (the tender requirement is for an AESA [active electronically scanned array]). This came to light during laboratory trials. The manufacturers said that the radar would be integrated once the deal was finalised.

    It would take almost four years for the first aircraft to arrive after the deal is inked. So by the time India gets its fourth generation aircraft in 2016, the Chinese will be ready to induct their fifth generation aircraft.

    Taking the lead in almost all its indigenous equipment trials, China seems to be well ahead of schedule in its weapons platforms. Their aircraft carrier Varyag entered sea trials in July 2011. The fifth generation stealth fighter J-20's debut this year helped China enter the elite club of fifth generation fighter jet owners. The other members of the club are the United States and Russia. While Russia took a year to make the second flight of its fifth generation stealth fighter PAK-FA, or T-50, with the first flight in January 2010, and the second in 2011, China has taken a lead in its stealth fighter trials.

    Having advanced stealth features and the capability of super cruising, the J-20's initial flights have given rise to speculation that the stealth fighter may already be being developed further. Western experts have called the stealth shaping of the J-20 better than the Russian PAK-FA (T-50) and the American F-35 fifth generation fighters. The J-20 will also have an AESA radar, electro-optical sensors, glass cockpit, fly-by-wire systems and bays for weapons of all ranges.

    On record, Air Force officers back the Government of India's choice. Former Air Chief F.H. Major told The Sunday Guardian, "The Chinese may be aiming at a fifth generation aircraft, but India, too, has entered into a similar venture with Russia. Since J-20 is not yet inducted, we don't know what capability it will have, whereas the shortlisted MMRCA fighters, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale are already flying in some countries, so we know their capabilities. Except stealth, which is an exclusive fifth generation feature, most four plus and fifth generation fighters have common features, like EW systems, weaponry and super cruise."

    Former Western Air Command Chief, retired Air Marshal A.K. Singh said, "Technologically there may not be much of a difference, except stealth. Arms and ammunition put onboard make a difference, which is not known for any of these aircraft. As far as inter-operability, manoeuvrability and sensors go, I don't think there is much of a difference."

    Former Air Chief S. Krishnaswamy said, "The AESA radar on both Typhoon and Rafale may have been demonstrated in a laboratory, but by the time they are inducted, these radars will be a part of the fighters as that's the tender requirement. But other avionics and sensors, like SAR, FLIR, IR will be better on the Indian planes, since we have access to western technology, which the Chinese do not have. How much can they research-develop and reverse-engineer?"

    About the IAF's FGFA (fifth generation fighter aircraft), former Air Chief P.V. Naik had said that the IAF's requirement was of a twin-seater, with higher level of avionics, swing role, super cruise capability and long range weapons. In December 2010, India and Russia signed a preliminary design contract to jointly develop a FGFA, on the lines of the twin-engine T-50, also called PAK-FA, Perspective Future Aviation Komplex for Frontline Aviation. The fear is that this project will be subject to the huge delays that have dogged joint ventures with Russia

    The US Air Force's fifth generation stealth fighter F-22 Raptor is already operational. Its F-35 joint strike fighter is under production and in its trial stage, with US as the lead country and nine others in the consortium.

    edited from http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/typhoon-rafale-no-match-for-chinas-mmrca
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2012
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  3. SpArK

    SpArK SORCERER Senior Member

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    These J-10,J-11, J-xx, J-1234 are world famous in China and parts of China like autonomous region of Pakistan.

    They made a boat like thing using a mix of stolen designs and claim it has everything to beat even F-22..

    Nobody is buying that claims.

    First they have to have confidence in sending their "4.5" fighters for fighter competitions rather than selling it to somalia, BD, Uganda, Chad, Autonomous region of Pakistan etc.
     
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  4. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    The MMRCA is not meant to be a 5th Gen substitute, for that we are in collaboration with Russias PakFA or what we call the FGFA. Sure it may be inducted a bit late but who cares the FGFA will prove more than a match for the J-20. Not to mention the AMCA would also come later than sooner..pun intended. :D
     
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  5. HeinzGud

    HeinzGud Senior Member Senior Member

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    Indian FGFA, MKI and Rafale for the Chinese J 20, J 11 and J 10....

    what will be the primary mission of Rafale? I mean India have MKI for ground attacks duties and probably FGFA would be used as the air dominance fighter....
    the case is if Rafale is faced with J 11 or J 20 how will it turn out to be? Rafale was reportedly out flown the F 22..... but can it survive a mass attack by Chinese AF?
     
  6. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Rafale is more than a match for J-20 which has...

    No Super Cruise
    PESA Radar
    Turns like a BRIC
    RCS greater than an F-16
    No HS data links
    Poor weapon selection

    There is nothing of J-20 that is 5th generation except propaganda.
     
  7. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    That much for 'stealth'.

    It must never be forgotten that a proven method to detect and destroy stealth aircraft is to triangulate its location with a network of radar systems. This was done while the F-117 was shot down during the NATO offensive over Yugoslavia.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2012
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  8. JAISWAL

    JAISWAL Senior Member Senior Member

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    and i was thinking its close to 20 hrs and still no comment or artical rediculing Rafale against super-duper hot chinese a/c.
    And just then i came across this thread.
    .
    Indeed Brits are sore loosers.
     
  9. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    The newspaper that carried this report is The Observer better known as The Sunday Guardian an extreme left-leaning pro-China waste of newsprint- not very dissimilar to the CHindu. No wonder one finds offerings from quite a few wankers gracing the pages of all these 'mouthpieces'. The two sister papers regularly churn out trashy condescending codswallop severely critical of India with few exceptions.

    Do not for one moment believe that this is a case of sour grapes due to Typhoon losing out to Rafale in MRCA. This is a case of the dog barking for its master. The only thing this writeup is useful for, is to be used as a bog-roll and littered outside (wouldn't say no to inside either) 90 York Road in King's Place.
     
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  10. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    He11, I have been reading comments all day on British forums. It has been nothing but an India bash fest all day. Anger over giving aid for nothing. Racist poor unsanitary commentary. Sick jokes about toilettes. Many think it was the Top Gear insult that cost the deal. On and on about poverty BS. Really they are just a bunch of sore losers. Their nation's industrial base is falling out from under them and there is nothing they can do.
     
  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The British may complain about their so called 'aid'

    Half of it goes into the salary of the NGOs, namely, the British.

    We have given them more than they give.

    The codeword to that is HAWK!
     
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  12. debasree

    debasree Regular Member

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    i still choose french one over chineese junk
     
  13. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    PLAAF should send their fighters & find out who's matching whom! :D

    oh wait, its the Brits speaking not Chinese. With no formidable armed force in future, looks like her majesty will fight the battles with BBC & Guardian crap!
     
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  14. balai_c

    balai_c Regular Member

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    Can you provide a link, for our entertainment ?
     
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  15. Mr.Ryu

    Mr.Ryu Regular Member

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    Also we are no match for CHINA's propoganda.
     
  16. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    AESA still developing..

    ECM is older Russian / Israeli copies..

    IRST is a copy of Su-27..

    Engine is a mix of Russian and Older US turbine..

    HMD display is too Older Russian copy..

    Many More..




    Suman Sharma is trolling.. :D

    Though i like her..


    She is telling what she was told by US..
     
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  17. maomao

    maomao Veteran Hunter of Maleecha Senior Member

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    They may not be British!! We all know what paki bigots and '50 centers' are capable of i.e spreading miss-information and propaganda. Moreover, such shallow language and lowlife mentality is trademark of failed state 'wannabe arab' pakis, who can never digest India's progress and their own - mental, economic, physical and political (including loosing islamic land to others) - digression! ;)
     
  18. Indianboy

    Indianboy Regular Member

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    I just hate Pakistan for what they have done to India and world...Hopefully Indian Forces will make so many holes in Pakistan that it won't realise from where is it inhaling and from where it is exhaling i.e releasing...;-)) Ameen,,,

    Hud hud Dabangg...:thumb:
     
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  19. Nagraj

    Nagraj Regular Member

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    Links pls........ :)
     
  20. Nagraj

    Nagraj Regular Member

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    Does any one knows about present strength of chinese Air force.?
     
  21. HeinzGud

    HeinzGud Senior Member Senior Member

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    okey let's put j 20 aside..... even though we have the J 10, j 11 and SU30MKK (combine aircraft inventory of well over 450) what will Indians offer for this.... SU30MKK and rafale (putting aside FGFA)...... with 300+ aircrafts....... even the number alone we can see Indian are at a losing point.....

    how will India going to counter the Chinese aircrafts?
     
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